History / Poland unit in England - can anybody recognize this military uniform? [10]


Hi JGriff,

There was a forum member named "Lacznosci" who set up a website that had some wonderful photos and information. Perhaps you could get in touch with him? Cheers Dan

History / Who is this communist Polish man? [3]

Hi Adrienne,

I remember this photo. I googled and came up with the April 1982 issue - the image pops up straight away. The symbols are not the hammer and sickle however, and this fellow would have probably been a striking worker of some description perhaps. Hope this helps. Cheers Dan

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


To my mind the answer is this:

If it is a fact that there was an overrepresentation of Jewish Poles (Polish Jews, Poles of Jewish faith, Jewish people who lived in Poland or whatever) in the Polish Communist regime, then in asking the question of why Jewish Poles (Polish Jews, Poles of Jewish faith, Jewish people who lived in Poland or whatever) made up a disproportionate number, one must needs be differentiate for the purposes of the exercise.

Questioning "Why?" the differentiation is, with respect, as useless as, for example, asking a statistician conducting a survey on prison populations in the US why they differentiated between African American, Hispanic American, Asiatic American, Caucasian American etc people in custody in the USA when they are all Americans anyway.

Or, to use a more Australian example, questioning a Royal Commission into death in custody why they differentiated between indigenous Australians and non-indigenous when both subsets are in the end Australian.

I suppose one could use an even more relevant example to yourself and ask you why you differentiate between Germans displaced during and after WW2 and Poles displaced during and after WW2 when all these people are human and/or from Europe etc etc.

If you can answer that question in respect of yourself, then you may have answered the question you posed to Paulina, if indeed her motivation was the same as yours.

I see several answers open to you - purely academic reasons, an objective sense that there has been an injustice, or because you identify strongly with your German heritage and are aggrieved that Germans were displaced. If there's another answer then let me know.


Do with them? In what regard exactly?

For the ones who freely, opportunistically and voluntarily signed up as Commies and took part in the subjugation, murder and control of their countrymen, I think we can all agree they are deserving of a special place in hell for their treachery. As to how many that is, no one really knows.

For the rest, what would you do to the father who was left no choice but to join the SB under threat of what would happen to his family if he didn't? What of the invalid AK veteran who had to become a card carrying member to survive? Or what of the Jewish Pole, once a lawyer in pre WW2 Warsaw, who was similarly forced into the role of Prosecutor because if he didn't he'd be shot in the back of the head?

Who really knows?

What I do know is that just before the Soviet takeover, say late 1944/early 1945, the number of Polish people (of whatever faith or race) who professed to being Communist could be counted in the hundreds, and that's probably being generous.

From 100's to 1,000,000's in the space of a few years suggest the Soviets and Polish Communists were selling something in their doctrine that really appealed to all those Poles who joined up after WW2 - as to what that something was, I don't know, but if you find it let me know and we'll start our own political party.

History / Movie about Polish Fighter 303 Squadron in the making [37]


A pleasure


I'd venture to say that it's not just sad, but absolutely tragic.

In one of your previous posts you touched on the part the British Government had to play in this entire affair. I'd again recommend you to read the transcripts from Hansard for Parliamentary sittings for 27 and 28 February 1945 to give some background and context. The speeches for the Crimea Conference are the relevant ones.

Briefly, these are the written transcripts of what was said by Members of Parliament in England. Churchill makes an appearance, as do other handwringing apologists (including Eden, right at the end). The communist taint to some of the Members is extraordinary. Having read the transcripts, it will become apparent as to why HMG adopted the position it did with the Free Poles after WW2.


Exactly. These people who claim to live in Poland (and I very much doubt these claims) have no idea about these notions that most Poles, whatever their failings, hold dear.


I hope it will - the mention of Polish names in the opening post is certainly heartening. Western and Communist propaganda is given short shrift by Poles. Sadly, it's adopted by the usual suspects on this forum.

History / Movie about Polish Fighter 303 Squadron in the making [37]

Nail on head.

I did read your previous posts and appreciate your breadth of knowledge - may I welcome you to the forum too.

I remember reading somewhere that it was either Urbanowicz or Zumbach who viewed the parade from the sidewalk. I'm sure Sosabowski would have been there too but for the fact he was probably engaged in his new employ at the factory. The imagery here is redolent of the way in which Polish service personnel were treated by HMG in the dying months of the war and post WW2.

They were of course far too polite to complain, but we haven't forgotten about it.

I wonder how the movie will deal with these uncomfortable truths. I'm sure the viewing public in the UK would be shocked at how erstwhile allies and friends were treated.


A metaphor for a closed mind? If so, a good one.

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


Absolutely correct.

An individual or nation of people cannot be held to account or responsible for the actions of a Government with no popular mandate and/or lawful/legitimate foundation, as is the case with Poland and the Soviet puppet government installed thereto, and particularly so where an organic and legitimate government already existed but was through perfidy supplanted by a foreign one. That is axiomatic.

Moreso too, where, in the case of Poland, absolutely no benefit to the populace was derived from the alien government and even further where such alien government did not have as its raison d'etre the benefit and best interests of the Polish population.

It has nothing to do with the racial/religious composition of the Government and is irrelevant to the question of absolvement of responsibility.

History / Movie about Polish Fighter 303 Squadron in the making [37]


There's debate as to whether or not 303 squadron were even invited. So far, no one has produced primary evidence to verify matters, nor copy of the invitation, even though our resident gumshoe Harry was tasked to do this. He has claimed that a copy of an itinerary is proof, but it's not.

Without this, any claim that 303 were invited is idle speculation and mere opinion, no matter how the usual suspects care to dress it up.

The axiom that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence is apt when discussing the issue of the VE day celebrations.

History / An Aussie Digger gets a medal - Polish/Australian camaraderie during WW2? [6]


Hey mate - you must be!

Please pass my compliments to your grandfather.

Cheers


Hear hear!


Isn't there mate. Never went to the Army but during my army cadet days my Coy. had two other Polish kids. It's that Polish military tradition.

History / Movie about Polish Fighter 303 Squadron in the making [37]


Whilst largely correct, I think it unfair and misleading to suggest all the Brits were ungrateful to the Poles. In this forum alone there have been many British members who have expressed their gratitude for the Poles and were dismayed at the treatment of the Poles after WW2.


I'd commend you to read the Hansard transcripts for Parliamentary sittings for 27 and 28 February 1945 where the British Government's betrayal of Poland is there for all who care to read it. I've posted a thread on this some months ago.


Not just a painful memory, but an affront to honour and dignity.


Not even at the last moment - key Free Polish personnel were invited only, and only after it became apparent to HMG that the Soviets weren't attending. Naturally, such 'invitations' were politely declined.

Notwithstanding much profession to the contrary, there was, and is, no invitation to the heroes of 303.

News / Why no reprivatisation in Poland? Holocaust-era property ownership. [119]


It was probably vetoed by virtue of the fact that when the question was asked as to how all this was to be paid for and managed, no one could come up with an answer. These grandiose schemes all fall flat when it's realised just how much it will cost, the effort involved in running it, and the administration required to ensure that it progresses.

To my mind, why should the current generation of Poles be responsible (i.e through tax or a levy) for the actions of the Polish Communist Government? Costs aside, how would the Government propose to deal with proof of ownership of a claimant? If it's 'compensation' in terms of return of real property, what is to happen to the person who has to return it if they were a bona fide purchaser for value? What if the real property was a derelict building when confiscated then built up over the years to a piece of real estate worth in the millions and generating income? What if the owners are foreign (unless Poland prevents this).

The intent is noble and just, but it is impossible to carry out.

As an aside, is the draft of such law available online? It would be interesting to have a look at how they intended to deal with it.


Oh please, all of this happened 70 years ago mate - get over it ;). It's just victor's justice and the spoils of war. Here's a tissue champ.

Off-Topic / Volkswagen Polo Car question - a timing belt? [30]


Really?

So was your timing chain plastic too? Probably explains why you had to do it several times. I remember having to change my bakelite tail shaft several times as it never seemed to be able to handle the torque and the glass bushes were forever cracking under load - a mechanically minded friend told me to go get a tin of elbow grease to lube it all up and replace the bushes with marble bearings - tried my darndest but could never find either, though this is in the days before google mind you.

When you went to the car parts store, and asked for this plastic timing chain, did they ask if you needed a 3/4 left handed socket wrench for the bolts on the timing chain cover? I used to need these as I am left handed. Or did you shortcut all that and use a 1/2 Grabley Pinchgrip to split then connect the plastic links together on both chains and feed the chain through the cam-valve juncture. What about a can of cold steam to clean the engine with before you went to work?

That'll be a can of KB lager thanks mate!

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


Hey mate. This is a interesting comparison. I'll ask my dad if he knows anything. He was only a young boy, but was in Warsaw and was pretty savvy. It'd be interesting to know too how currency was used during the war and how it changed during the course of it.

History / Why is it ok to represent Polish history of WWII inaccurately in the film "Our Fathers, Our Mothers"? [36]

I just really struggle to take you seriously when you say things like this mate, given your challenge ages ago to the effect that someone should have compiled a list of German civilians 'murdered' by Poles at the beginning of WW2 when the premise to your challenge ended up being totally flawed and one-sided and another prime piece of dissimulation. In essence, you seem to put yourself out as someone who is all for balance in history yet fail to practice it yourself.

This too especially when you conflate two untruths by suggesting to the effect that Poles weren't balanced in their views by virtue of Commie propaganda til The Archive stepped in and made them develop a much more balanced view. I think it goes over your head as to how patronising that sounds, quite apart from the fact that it is incorrect.

History / Why is it ok to represent Polish history of WWII inaccurately in the film "Our Fathers, Our Mothers"? [36]


Thanks mate - I'd love to, but I'm in AUSTRALIA and would prefer your take on what the Germans said. Thanks in advance.

History / Why is it ok to represent Polish history of WWII inaccurately in the film "Our Fathers, Our Mothers"? [36]

What did they have to say about the Prussian Homage? No need for links, just your précis of the good bits.

Off-Topic / Volkswagen Polo Car question - a timing belt? [30]


With respect Johnny, this is simply untrue. There is no such thing as a plastic timing chain. They are all metal.

History / Why is it ok to represent Polish history of WWII inaccurately in the film "Our Fathers, Our Mothers"? [36]


This concept too was used by the Imperial powers in the Pacific to justify their Imperialism over the indigenous populations in the C19.


I had a History text book in High School here in Australia in the 1990's. In the section on WW2, there was a picture of Polish Cavalry on manoeuvres. The caption however was to the effect of "Polish Cavalry prepare to charge German tanks" - when I pointed out that this was incorrect, I was ignored.


I haven't seen the show either, but given the endorsement by the usual suspects as to the accuracy of its portrayal, I strongly suspect it's a prime piece of cinematic dissimulation.

Off-Topic / Volkswagen Polo Car question - a timing belt? [30]


G'day mate,

It is a real issue that cannot be ignored.

If you've been told the timing belt needs to be changed by a reputable mechanic, then do it ASAP. If the timing belt snaps, you WILL ruin your cylinder head, and probably the bottom end too. Basically, the whole motor will be destroyed. You can check the frequency of changes yourself on google, but it's usually anywhere between 50,000 to 100,000 km intervals, or based on years of age (whichever comes first). Your log book will tell you in any event. The mechanic should also replace the tensioners, which keep the belt taut.

The belt essentially "times"' the top part of the engine to run in sync/unison with the bottom. The top has your valve gear which lets in petrol and air and your bottom has the pistons and crank, which create the inertia and power. If the belt snaps, the valve gear on the top stops dead, but the pistons at the bottom keep pumping along and smash into the valves. If you have a local car parts store, they usually have an old piston sitting on the front desk with a valve embedded into it (at least in Oz they do). This shows you what happens if you don't do the timing belt.

The timing belt is a long rubber belt with nylon reinforcement that whilst on the outside of the engine is usually covered by a plastic shroud. Older cars usually have a timing chain, which is a double row chain contained inside the engine that does wear and become loose. Timing gears serve the same function but are cogs, and give off a nice whine that V8 freaks love.

Whilst I'm no mechanic, I'm familiar with this because me and my friends used to fix our own cars when I was younger and had no money to pay someone else to do it.

Bottom line - if you've been told it's about to break, DO NOT start the engine until it's fixed.

Doing the water pump at the same time like the mechanic suggested is a probably a good idea. The water pump impeller is driven I believe sometimes off the timing belt but more typically has its own belt driven off the crank pulley. Don't quote me here because it's been a while since I've had my hands dirty. If the water pump is behind or hidden by the timing belt shroud and is driven off the timing belt then this is probably why he's suggesting it. Typical reason is bearing failure or corrosion of the pump body.

Hope this helps mate.

History / Why HMG (Her Majesty's Government) abandoned Poland to the Soviets [30]

It seems to me as though the forum members posting here have not yet had the opportunity to read the Hansard transcripts for 27 and 28 February 1945. Had they, it would be clear that it is not a question of the British failing to 'start WW3 against Russia' for the benefit of Poles - indeed, I struggle to recall any accusation on this forum that has been made by "Poles" against the "Brits" that this should have occurred. Indeed, it seems to me as though it is the slogan, and in a sense the thought terminating cliché, that the "Brits" on this forum use whenever the issue pops up. It is misconceived.

Had the transcripts been read, it ought to be realised that it is in a sense the opposite - it was (to put it simplistically) to do with a vote of no-confidence in Churchill by certain Members as a result of their protests against Churchill 'underwriting' what was in fact the Soviet takeover of Poland.


I think if you read the transcripts you'll perhaps find some uncomfortable truths there.

hansard.millbanksystems.com/sittings/1945/feb/27


Of that there is no doubt. My criticism is levelled against HMG - not the British people. The ordinary people of the UK suffered immensely in WW2 and gave 110% to the war effort. I challenge anyone here to say otherwise.

Indeed, in the transcripts there's some touching anecdotes as to the futility and hopelessness felt by the rank and file regarding the geo-political developments becoming reality at the final stages of WW2.


I'd refer you to my comments on the Czech issue ("How different would WW2 turned out if Poland accepted Hitler's offer" - post 133) so as to disabuse you of your misconceptions. It will surprise you to read of Chamberlain's involvement in the whole affair. Indeed, given the simplistic and somewhat inflammatory way you've viewed the matter, an understanding of the correct factual matrix will prove a complete surprise to you.

History / Why HMG (Her Majesty's Government) abandoned Poland to the Soviets [30]


Sadly, I never had the opportunity to speak to my babcia, as she having died quite a few years before my birth, a broken and traumatised woman who never recovered from the death of her husband during the Rising in 1944.

I'm profoundly disappointed in your response to me Doug. I've also thought of you as one of the best and most reasoned contributors here, and whilst I didn't necessarily agree with everything you said, I always found what you said to be interesting and thoughtful. It seems I was wrong.

You'll no doubt have seen I've been very careful in ascribing my criticism to your Government at the time, and not the British people of the time. If such rage was sparked within you on a misconception that I'm somehow holding the Brits as a nation to account for the sell-out, then imagine how one must feel when reading about what your Government at the time thought about the Poles, and ultimately did to them in the dying stages of WW2.

I've always thought of the Brits as being the archetypes of the notion of 'fairplay'. Indeed, that notion, and those of honour and obligation, are redolent in the Hansard transcript I'd referred to in some of the Member's speeches. It seems as though from reading what happened in Parliament in February 1945, those concepts were sidelined. If you choose to champion and try to justify that reality, then at the very least make sure you identify the actual argument that you are responding to.

History / Why HMG (Her Majesty's Government) abandoned Poland to the Soviets [30]

I wasn't specifically referring to developments in 1939, but point taken. I'd still recommend reading the Hansard transcripts as they give an understanding not only of the Crimea Conference but also Teheran, and the Dumbarton Oaks conference were the UN was 'born'.

Classifieds / Warsaw (PL) Tabletop Role Playing Game Group for Expats Only. D&D Fortnightly [87]


Hey Shadow. What's the current quest your PC's are on? Have you had any PC's come into the game from this forum?

I was visiting on the weekend some of my old mates whom I used to play D&D with - we were talking about maybe getting into D&D again! We're looking at doing this over Skype or similar, as we all live quite far apart from each other, have kids etc. I dug out my old D&D books over the weekend, and guess what I found - our character sheets from about 20 years ago! Ah, the memories there! Cheers Dan.

UK, Ireland / Have the British become the worst enemy of the Polish? [45]


Nah, it was exactly as I set it out.


I never did mind Haz. Seems you do though.


A copy of their invitation, if you please, otherwise it never happened.


I'm not complaining though - just pointing out the facts. Anyways, why so defensive of the Government (of 70 years ago) of a nation to whom you're not even distantly connected to, you being an Aussie and all?

UK, Ireland / Have the British become the worst enemy of the Polish? [45]


I'd say moreso the sell-out manifested in real terms at Teheran. I've detailed my position there elsewhere on the forum if you are interested, but briefly, HMG sold Poland out to the Soviets by acquiescing to Stalin's designs on Polish territory. Otherwise, HMG also breached Article 5 of the Treaty of Mutual Assistance by virtue of failing to tell Poland of the fact that they had done so, and, more pertinently, by failing to tell Poland of Stalin's designs.

I think Molotov illustrated the perfidy best when he expressed to a stunned Mikolajczyk during discussion on Polish territories that no, Poland couldn't have Lwow and Vilno back because "all had been settled at Teheran".


Sad, isn't it.

To be fair though, certain very small elements of the Free Polish air force were invited, as well as a couple of senior officers (I think Bor was one). All eleventh hour invites mind you (something like the night before the parade), occasioned by virtue of the "Communist Polish" forces scoffing at their invitation.

Snubbed, HMG must have realised that with the absence of their new Communist friends attending, their erstwhile Free Polish friends would be slightly better than nothing. As befits such contemptible "invitations", they were politely rejected.


It wasn't "stolen" so much as held on "Trust" by HMG, who invoiced the Free Poles and deducted the Polish gold reserves held on trust in settlement of the bill.

Kind of like a situation whereby you're my friend and your house catches fire but I'm too busy to help you. But, when my house catches fire, you and your family (you're lodging with me now (but not your family) and I hold your stuff on your behalf) rush to help me put out the blaze, and, in gratitude, I take some of your stuff that I hold in payment for the hose you used and the extra water you consumed in putting out the fire to my house. Good, isn't it?


Again, in fairness, this all happened a long time ago, and should not be the sole benchmark to which modern-day Poland gauges its relationships with foreign countries. It's not "the Brits" who did this, but rather their Government at the time. I'm sure that if the average Pom had known about the absolutely atrocious way in which HMG treated the Poles, they would have been up in arms. Indeed, this sort of spirit of honour and fair play resonated with some MP's, who actually resigned in protest over the way Poland was treated.

History / Polish conscripts to German army [132]


Good to see that you're still fighting the good fight and being respectful as always.

History / The good deeds of other Nations to the Pole's [3]

Whenever I think of good deeds of other nations to the Poles, my first thoughts spring to the thousands of Irish volunteers who flocked to the cause of Poland during the insurrection of 1863.

I recall too a thread here from some time ago regarding an India Rajah who helped displaced Poles in WW2.

Life / Would getting a PW tattoo be seen as disrespectful in Poland? [7]

G'day olbeho,

Sorry to hear about what you've gone through mate. Glad to hear you've beaten your demons.

Whilst I can't speak for anyone else here (I'm an Aussie of Polish descent, whose grandad fought and died in the Rising, and whose forebears served in the Polish military for several hundred years), I think your proposed tattoo sounds pretty cool, particularly given the meaning and intent behind it. Further, I don't think it would be disrespectful at all - indeed, the fact that you bothered to come here and ask this speaks of the fact that you are nothing but respectful of it.

You seem to know the meaning and history of the symbol, and I'm thinking good on you for showing an interest - who knows, it may foster discussion and even friendships to those who see it and understand the imagery. To your English mates who see it, you can use it as an opportunity to tell them about the AK and Free Poles in WW2.

If nothing else, the visual style of the image is I think very attractive, and somewhat redolent of Polish 'slogan art' of the time, particularly some of the military unit markings in WW2.

As an aside, and with respect, a number of Polish veterans who survived WW2 themselves suffered depression (some of whom I knew), suicidal ideation, suicide and alcoholism. Some of our members here have told quite touching stories of their personal ordeals.

All the best mate
Dan

Life / Jack Strong ( Film about Colonel Ryszard Kuklinski ) [48]

Kuklinski's country was Free Poland (he was born into it, mind you), not Communist Poland. Communist Poland was an unlawfully and unconstitutionally created appendage of the Soviet takeover and occupation of Poland in the latter stages of, and after, WW2. Ergo, the "Oath" he purportedly took (which probably included a clause to the effect that he had to co-operate with the Soviets) was a construct of an unlawful regime, meaning it was not an Oath at all. But, for argument's sake, if it was an Oath, it would needs be broken to the extent that it conflicted with his over-arching obligation to Free Poland because, in law and in equity (if not 'in fact') Kuklinski's country was Free Poland, not Communist Poland.

To advocate otherwise is to turn the concepts of the rule of law and national sovereignty on their heads.

In any event, he was 'released' from his "Oath" upon the collapse of Communist Poland and Soviet Russia. Such release, in the circumstances, was retro-active by virtue of the fact that:

1. There was no-one (be it a person or entity) to whom the Oath could be upheld to as there was no-one to enforce it, nor was their any subrogation type arrangement.

2. Had the "Oath" remained binding (which presupposes there was subrogation from the Soviets, which there wasn't), the Post Communist, Free Polish Government (being the lawful and constitutional Government) would have prosecuted Kuklinski (or enforced it, but most likely issued punishment for breach), which it didn't.

Heartfelt and handwringing pleas to the concepts of honour and loyalty surrounding an Oath are just argumentum ad passiones.


No need to argue it mate - the facts speak for themselves, no matter how hard some apologists try to dissimulate.

Given the reality of 'service' to the Soviets however (i.e. you either serve or you go to jail/get shot etc.), I don't think we can stand in judgment and condemn a very great many honest Poles who had no choice other than to survive under the Communist juggernaut (save and except those 'Poles' who relished their life under Communist rule and were part and parcel of the system).