Travel / Collection of dress codes in Poland - what to wear? [95]

@ Tourist, I wonder if there was a reason why other women were more covered up? For instance, was it a cold day, or perhaps a Sunday when many of the women were going to or from Church?

Merged: Intriguing question about Polish women and clothing

I've mentioned before that I've noticed how few Polish women and girls wear skirts and dresses, both here in the UK and when I've visited Poland. Even in the middle of summer they are much more likely to wear trousers than say English women. I've speculated whether this may be a feminist thing as I think that feminism is more important to Polish women than some other nationalities.

However I've also noticed some inconsistencies. I enjoy watching sports on TV, and in indoor volleyball, until a few years ago there was a really good Polish team called Winiary Kalisz. One of the most noticeable things about the team is that its players all wore bikini-type bottoms long after other teams switched to shorts, as shown here:

Poland sport

In 2012, just before the London Olympics, there was a lot of controversy in the sports media here because the governing body of women's boxing was trying to get the competitors at the Games to wear skirts, rather than shorts. The move was inspired by the Polish team, which dressed that way, as shown here:



Finally, I see that Poland has a new top volleyball team, replacing Winiary Kalisz. It's called Atom Trefl. Again it has a different uniform than all the other league teams: they wear short skirts, rather than shorts:



These things make me think that femininity is a highly prized quality in Poland, and that Polish athletes prefer not to wear any kind of trousers if they can possibly avoid it. And yet, in normal daily life, Polish women hardly ever wear skirts or dresses - despite being, on average, very attractive.

Being a typical man, I realise that trying to understand how women think is a mug's game, but I can't help wondering whether I've missed something because of the apparent contradiction. Anyone here, especially female and Polish, able to explain the thinking?

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

Thanks Gabi for the link to descriptions of the different strands of feminist thought. I notice that one or two of the more strident anti-feminists on this thread came from a start point of deriding what they see as a 'professional' feminist class, who use money from the EU and governments to fund their own campaigns, and who profess to speak for all women.

While I support most feminist ideals and policies, I too am an enthusiast for a smaller state and the promotion of individual liberty; probably the feminist strand I most closely identify with is the so-called I-feminist (or individual feminist) one. Among other things, I-feminists treasure the personal freedoms of individual women so, for instance, they do not deride women who choose to be home-makers or stay-at-home mothers and they recognise that most women are straight and like nice clothes and looking good.

So I wonder whether Polonius, Zimmy and others might be willing to concede that while they might not agree with some strands of feminist thought, this one group of feminists - which I'd guess is one of the larger ones, having the support of most women - is actually one worthy of backing.

Life / Masculinist movement needed in Poland? [26]

@ Harry, why would 'we' (meaning men?) stop women from masturbating or having sexual thoughts? Surely the days of men trying to suppress female sexuality are long gone (at least in Europe). And in any case, what is the pont? Female sexuality is surely one of the best things in life, much enjoyed by women and men alike.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ f stop, I think you've hit the nail on the head. A certain kind of man resents feminists, belittles and insults them, and in return, they see him as a dinosaur and dislike him. He picks up on this and uses their behaviour to justify his mysogenistic opinions. The solution, I think, is not to rend to his insults but instead to continue to explain why improving equality for women is good for both women and men.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

Zimmy, there are seven billion people on this planet. More than half are female. So there are more than 3.5 billion women and girls, while not all of them would call themselves feminists, the vast majority would agree with mainstream feminist principles and campaigns. The three people you've quoted - who represent less than one in a billion of the world's females - are far from typical of mainstream feminism and most women, including most feminists, would not agree with them.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Zimmy, you seem to think that feminists hate men. Honestly, they don't. And secure men don't hate feminists. Me? I'd happily have f stop's babies if she asked me :-).

News / Polish cleaner claims sexual assault is OK in rural Poland [31]

@ f stop, I wonder whether the attitudes you describe have more to do with the ages of the men than the fact they live in the countryside. With local cultures being subordinated by TV and the Internet, I wonder whether there really are still major differences in views about what is acceptable within a developed country such as Poland.

Love / Fresh, wholesome country lass in Poland - getting married and going back to the US [167]

Polonius' notion of Polish women comes from the history books. Today, Polish women are going to university in greater numbers than men, are economically and sexually independent and will love a man only if he loves and appreciates her for these qualities. Maybe that's why he despises feminism so much? He blames it for turning those dependent women into people who can choose who to be with.

Love / Fresh, wholesome country lass in Poland - getting married and going back to the US [167]

Polonius wrote: "Are you saying only slightly used, second and third-hand females exist and you are revolted by anyone who doesn't fancy one?"

Your use of the words "used" and "second and third-hand" suggest you think of women as possessions, not sentient, independent human beings.

As for your rhetorical question, I'll tell you what truly revolts me, and that is a man who would fancy a woman because she's a virgin, and by implication not fancy her if she wasn't one. It suggests you have a fetish about female sexual inexperience, which is a small step from paedophilia, or perhaps a symptom of sexual insecurity or selfishness (a virgin cannot compare you to her former partners and find you wanting).

Female sexuality is a wonderful thing, and brings enormous pleasure to a normal, unselfish man. It's not wholesome to fetishise women who subjugate their sex drives to measure up to standards set by men who, almost without exception, would never think to impose the same rules on themselves.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Polonius, t doesn't follow that the suffragettes were against all the other feminist campaigns that have followed the battle for votes. I guess they figured best to go for one bold goal first. But some of those early feminists were involved in other campaigns, including the one for women's access to university education here in the UK.

Just today, Lenka has posted a story about a Polish woman who has discovered a cure for leukaemia. Millions of people could have their lives extended and their quality of life transformed by the work of someone who, were it not for feminism, would have left school at an early age, been married off and made pregnant without the chance to use her gift to enrich humanity.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Ironside, I accept that women can be aggressive too. But often men are economically and socially more able to get themselves out of abusive relationships, and also physically to defend themselves.

Also, domestic violence is just one small part of feminism. Consider how many amazing vaccines, medicines, medical procedures, consumer technologies, scientific discoveries, works of art and literature etc people have created, to improve the quality of human life. Until relatively recently half of our species was largely excluded from contributing to this store of shared wealth because few people saw the value in educating women, and even if they did, all too often men kept them barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

Think how much the lives of all of us can be enriched if we get better at harnessing the genius of women, which isat least the equal of men's.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Ironside, no, it's you, not Lenka, who is missing the point. She's saying that domestic violence was quite commonplace in a developed country only 20 or so years ago. Indeed, there's still plenty of it around today. Why? I'd say the attitudes of some men towards women is the root cause, in that they think it's OK to take out their anger or frustration on the women they live with. Then the attitudes of some other men in positions of influence in the police and the courts system who don't investigate or prosecute such crimes. Then there are the attitudes of some women who think that such behaviour is excusable, the way things are in life, and the economic structure of society that means that a lot of women, especially those with children, may not have the economic independence to walk away for men who abuse them.

Videos from woman-hating Americans who make out that domestic violence is often the fault of women legitimise and reinforce terrible abuses.

This is a forum for people who have an interest in and affection for Poland. More than half of Poland's population is female. Surely people on this forum should want dignified and safe lives for them, which means we should condemn the apologists for domestic violence and support campaigners for improving women's rights, in Poland and elsewhere.

UK, Ireland / Britain's moral collapse? [99]

I'm British and I don't see a moral collapse around me. Granted, there are always things that can be improved, but there are many worse places. If there's one thing I'd like to change, it would be to improve the standard of living and general happiness ofeople who work hard to earn modest incomes and don't take anything from the state.

Ever since the New Labour years they have seen an increasing proportion of their taxes going to support three groups of people they rightly resent: (1) People who don't work, and don't intend to do so; (2) Senior people in the public sector who enjoy salaries and pensions seldom seen in the private sector and (3) Wealthy bankers, non-domiciled foreigners and multinational companies that enjoy enormous tax breaks or implicit state support, making it harder for those in the middle to move up into the top tier.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Zimmy, I watched that video. Seems to blame women for domestic violence, even when they're the victims.

This is thinly veiled propaganda from mysogenists. As long as rubbish like this is taken seriously there will be a desperate need for feminism. Statistics have already been posted to this thread showing that male-on-female attacks represent the overwhelming majority of instances of domestic violence. Think of the women you know: your mother, sister, wife or partner, friends, work colleagues. You would surely want them to be safe, and to be able to live free from fear. And if any man was vicious enough to hurt a woman you care about, you would surely want the authorities to take her complaint seriously. Evil propaganda such as the video you linked to really doesn't help.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


Sadly, I'm no longer young :-(. I too have been in business and in my experience if a woman confronts a man about sexism, it's probably because he has been guilty of sexist behaviour, and not because he is male. Just sayin'.


I accept that some advertising uses anti-male humour to flatter female consumers. But the fact that they can do this with credibility surely highlights the bigger point, which is that men still oppress women.

In contrast, there is a huge amount of advertising that tries to make women feel insecure about their bodies if they don't look a certain way, or about their skills as wives or mothers.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


The examples given in the column you've linked to are grossly unrepresentative of feminism as a whole. The majority of feminists are straight women who love men and are, or might wish to become, mothers. They just want to be treated with respect, to have equal access to education and other public services, to have equal salaries and promotion rights at work, and not to have to compromise their careers or economic independence if they have children.

The overriding message from some people on this thread has been that the women's congress in Poland is a bad thing, and that Polish women should have nothing to do with it. I don't know whether it is guilty of any of the alleged man-hating activities mentioned in the Renew America blog - I doubt it - but if it is, surely it would be better to encourage as many women as possible to get involved, to steer the organisation to be representative of what most Polish women want?

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

+1,f stop. I think we've encountered a man who is a walking vindication of the need for a strong feminist movement.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


I think it's because some men mistakenly think life is a zero-sum game, and that any gains achieved by women necessarily come at the expense of men.

My perspective on this is the opposite. Like most men, I'm straight. So I hope to marry or live with a woman. If measures are introduced to ensure, for instance, that the woman I love is paid the same as any man doing equivalent work, that she is not barred from promotion and that society is organised in such a way that her career is not adversely impacted if we have children, these measures would surely make my life better as well as hers. And if she can go through life without fearing rape, being made to feel inadequate by advertising that objectfies women and 1000 other forms of sexism, so she is happy and confident, surely that would also make me happy. What kind of man would not want such things?

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@Foreigner4, you are of course right that most Western women don't choose or do jobs that possess the characteristics you listed. But then, nor do most Western men. A combination of mechanisation and globalisation mean both genders increasingly do knowledge-based work in the service sector.

But where jobs exist that exhibit the dangers you described, I would argue they are done by men and women in broadly similar numbers. Food manufacturing and agriculture are two industries in which there are a lot of industrial accidents. A great many women work in these environments. And, here in the UK, a high proportion of them are Polish.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


I agree there's less demand for male than female prostitutes. However, this is irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that women do dangerous/unhealthy jobs, but we don't give them credit for that because our mental image of such a career is a male one.


Again, you're twisting my logic. Of course the average flight is less risky than a fire that requires firefighters. But this is irrelevant to my point, because firefighters spend very little of their time fighting fires. Mostly they sit in their staff rooms, polish fire engines, attend car accidents, rescue cats from trees etc. Very, very occasionally they go into situations where there's a fire, and in only a tiny percentage of those are they in the kind of inferno-type situation where their lives are at risk.

My original comment suggested that, over time, a pretty young Polish woman working as cabin crew for LOT or Ryanair is as likely to have to save someone's life as is a firefighter, and that she is also as likely to find herself in a situation that puts her own life at risk.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


OK, then a woman over the age of consent who chooses to become a sex worker. The principle is the same: women DO occupy dangerous, unhealthy jobs, it's just that those jobs don't all fit the (male) mental image you have of them.

Cabin crew on an airline would be another example. They could save your life one day, and could lose theirs in an accident. It is probably no less risky than the (largely male) career of fire fighter, but because they wear makeup and tight skirts, we don't think of them in the same way.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


There are women doing all of those jobs, but not many. It may be because social condition deters many women from wanting such roles, or because it causes the people who hire for such positions to disregard some female candidates. At the same time, women are over-represented in other jobs that are hard, dirty and dangerous, but you may not be aware of it because your stereotype of what counts as hard, dirty and dangerous work is based on the male archetype. For instance, I would suggest that being an underage sex worker, trafficked to a foreign country and held against one's will is a very risky occupation, and that most people who do it are female.


Feminists believe that women are as important to society as men, that they deserve the same rights and respect; they don't believe they are the same. Basic biology determines that a fit man will have a higher proportion of muscle and lower fat reserves than an equally fit woman, which is why the genders are separated for high-level sports. But this does not mean that there are not women who are more than strong enough to do the jobs that some people want to reserve for men on the grounds that men are stronger (on average, we may be, but some, if not all women are strong enough to do the work).


Do you have any evidence for these sweeping generalisations?


There is a significant contingent within the religious right in America that teaches girls and young woman that female masturbation is immoral. And for many years the role of the clitoris and the existence of the female orgasm have been ignored or repressed by the medical professional and educators. Against that background, I think it's a good thing that feminists are teaching female students about their sexuality and encouraging them to celebrate it, rather than being ashamed.

As a man, I'm guessing a straight one, you would surely prefer women to be confident about their sexuality and aware of how to enjoy their bodies.


If this happens, then you will surely support what I wrote in this thread, which is that Polish women should be encouraged to get involved to ensure that the group is representative of the views of the majority. I suspect that most Polish women support the right to abortion but that views on the left-right debate and the Church are mixed.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

The OP thinks the Women's Congress is to representative of all Polish women. Surely it would be more constructive of him to encourage more women to get involved and express their views at the event, rather than to criticise it? Unless, of course, he wants to marginalise women's issues and take cheap shots at feminists.

Love / Fresh, wholesome country lass in Poland - getting married and going back to the US [167]

Marynka11 wrote that: 'A guy who want a a woman to be virgin does not grasp the idea that women have sexual needs themselves. For him a woman is a possession acquired in order to cook for him, clean his house and take care of his dick'

F Stop wrote: 'The moral of this story is that finding them might be easy. Keeping them, and keeping them happy, is the real challenge'

I think it's no coincidence that these wise words come from women, rather than men. A rather stupid, selfish man might be tempted to look for a woman he thinks can look after his needs, without thinking about hers. Result? She becomes sexually frustrated, unloved, undervalued and lonely, so leaves him. As a result he becomes still more mysogenistic, so goes out looking for another trophy wife, rather than seeking an equal relationship with a true soulmate. Very sad.

Love / Fresh, wholesome country lass in Poland - getting married and going back to the US [167]

@ Sparks11, I think one of the things that makes a relationship work is shared values. Myself, I prefer sex to be within an established relationship. But love is an amazing and bizarre thing so I can imagine falling for someone who was a virgin, or who'd had recreational sex many times without being in a relationship. However, I can understand that there are people who are more driven by their morality or religion than I am, who might insist for example on marrying someone who hadn't had sex before - it's just that I'd expect they would also be virgins themselves. Otherwise it's the height of hypocrisy. That's why I can't have anything other than contempt for the man described by Polonius.

Love / Fresh, wholesome country lass in Poland - getting married and going back to the US [167]

Why would a man want his wife to be a virgin on their wedding night, anyway?

I ask for three reasons. First, would he not want to have sex with her himself before marriage? They might discover that they like different things sexually or were otherwise incompatible. And if not, they could enjoy closeness and intimacy together while getting to know one another better, then while waiting for their wedding day. Sex should be an enjoyable way for two people wh love each other to bond. Why deprive yourself and the person you love of that?

Second, those who favour physical virginity - an intact hymen - seem to want women to bleed on their wedding nights. That sounds like it could be a painful and somewhat scary experience for an inexperienced young woman. What kind of a man would want his wife's first experience of married life to be like that?

Third, wouldn't a man want to share his life with a woman who has a healthy sex drive, as opposed to someone who has suppressed her sexuality because she thinks there's something 'dirty' about it? OK, I know there are many ways that a man can please a woman, or a woman can please herself, that don't involve losing her physical virginity, and from a male perspective these are more enjoyable than straightforward vaginal sex, but a man would surely prefer his wife to enjoy that aspect of sexuality at least occasionally.

I'm not suggesting that I believe in casual sex or promiscuity - I think sex should be for people in established relationships who love one another. But think this standard should be applied equally to men and women, and I think it's crazy that a man should expect physical virginity from an adult woman. It could easily lead to unhappiness for both of them.

Love / Fresh, wholesome country lass in Poland - getting married and going back to the US [167]

I think the guy, deep down, is either insecure or hates women. What's really sad is that it risks becoming a self-fulfilling prophesy: the only women likely to respond to him are looking for a passport or a generous divorce settlement (or both). Having experienced such treatment, he's likely to hate women even more. Most tragic of all is the thought that he may have been hurt before, and it is this that is leading him to his particular search requirements, the nature of which will drive away decent, self-respecting, intelligent women who could genuinely love him and turn him away from this bitterness.

News / Poland marching for life and family [132]

Marching to celebrate happy, nuclear families is a good thing, provided it doesn't imply condemnation of other family, household or relationship types.

News / Krystyna Pawłowicz and the 'marsz szmata' (slut walk) [52]


I'll hold her down while you give her a good smacking.

Some deeply offensive comments from a narrow-minded woman who's a disgrace to her gender.

Love / My little confession hehe - I always thought polish women were ugly [57]

BigDundeeDave, I think the Polish women you've met may not be typical of their country as a whole. Maybe it's because you're in Dundee :-)?

Seriously, the Polish girls I've met, here in the UK and in Poland, have been naturally beautiful - pretty faces, little or no makeup, natural body shape (not underweight or artificially enhanced). They've also been independent - degree educated, not willing to pander to men or accept poor treatment.

People of any nationality vary a lot of course, but on average I'd say Polish women are better looking and easier to love than British ones.