News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Ahahaha!

First - you can check this for yourself. At least, with the two websites I mentioned.

Second - perhaps there was one period of positive coverage, when Tusk was elected, but it very, very quickly turned into greater disappointment.

What exactly did you think you did for Ukraine, in the last 9 months, to merit positive mentions?

First it was PiS openly standing against Ukrainian exports. Now it is Tusk "secretly" standing against the same.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]

I guess all the smiley faces, are because you know I can't prove it.

Even if I fly to Kiev tomorrow, and schedule an appointment with Minister of Foreign Affairs Dmitry Kuleba, and the head of Ukraine's Security Council Alexei Danilov - I would not be able to provide you this answer.

Simply, you will have to take my word for it - which of course you won't. To Ukraine, all your intermarium/visegrad bullsh*t is a joke. They think they should occupy a different category - at least on the level of Spain or Italy. Their allies are Germany, UK, US.

Poland almost never gets mentioned in Ukraine, except negatively - for probably the last 9 months at least. Even though it's America, which is not delivering on its promises.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Only an idiot could answer that Poland is the closest country to Ukraine culturally. Even Muslim Azerbaijan, is closer to Ukraine culturally than Poland. Forget about places like Belarus and Russia.

Also, only an idiot could rate Polish culture as the most interesting in Europe - no disrespect. But seriously, there are countries like Italy and France in Europe...

Finally, I said Ukrainians do not see Poles as "strategic allies". This has nothing to do with culture. Then, Brazil would be the closest ally of Portugal.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


No, no.

Quietly wishing Poles get invaded by Russia, or that they experience on themselves starvation - is totally not anti-anything.

Accusing somebody of thinking only of themselves, and calling them backstabbers - that also doesn't necessarily mean that you don't like them.

Only when the other side begins to come up with funny words like slave, orc, subhuman, etc can one confidently state that we are dealing with some kinda anti-something.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


No sh*t.


Strangely, their anger is making them write many anti-Polish things.

I love your argument, that Ukraine is angry, but not anti-Polish. It's completely meaningless.

A post does not have to say "Poles are greedy colonizers, just like the Russians. Butchers and exploiters." - to be anti-Polish.

It's enough for a post to say, "Poland can go f*ck itself.", or even "Poles are behaving extremely irrationally" - for it to be anti-Polish. By the criteria of any university, journalist outfit, or surveying organization.

You just made up your own criteria on what is anti-Polish, by defining it as near racial hate.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


I don't.

Instead, I'm highly amused at how Poland and Ukraine managed to f*ck up their relations this badly within just two years. Especially when I remember how great they were at the beginning.

Not even the most optimistic Russian propagandist could have predicted it. What's even better, is that Pawian can't blame PiS anymore.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Time for what? That view is correct. PF is the best confirmation, that Poland is precisely not helping Ukraine out of some sense of altruism. Even people like you and Paulina, argue why Poland should aid Ukraine primarily from a pragmatist point of view.

Ukrainians are not stupid, so I think their read on Polish intentions is pretty spot-on.


How does this work, in your imagination?

I am a Ukrainian, I go to a website to read some news. I read that Poland is dumping my grain on the ground, and guys are walking around with posters that read "Koniec gosciny - niewdzieczne skurwysyn". I decide to go to the comments section, to see what my fellow countrymen think about it. I open the comments, and horror of horrors - everybody is angry at Poland's actions. This makes me very depressed, and I feel that I don't support my country's continued efforts to resist Russian occupation any longer.

Is that how?

When will the two of you be able to take some responsibility for your actions? Always Putin soiling your underwear.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Alright guys, I get it.

Russians come, and stage entire virtual town halls on Ukrainian websites - for the amusement of the occasional Western reader.

Ukrainians, meanwhile, abhor their own newspapers, and never post comments there out of principle - preferring instead to write posts in the Christian Science Monitor and San Francisco Chronicle.

Thank God for Russians, creating some semblance of civic society discussions in the Ukrainian press, because otherwise there would be a vacuum.

Correct?

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Precisely.

Otherwise, you need to conduct actual surveys.

Going to Kiev for a business trip, and talking to a dozen Ukrainians - does not qualify as evidence.

The fact is - Polish actions over the course of the past year are interpreted as being extremely hostile in Ukraine. Goodwill between the two nations, is evaporating rapidly, while it was built on a shaky foundation to begin with.


I know, I know. I'm just having some fun this morning, while waiting for my plane)

It's kind of you, to be able to understand the Ukrainians despite the present intensity in relations.

You must admit, however, that it is interesting to you to read these perspectives? I really was not trying to pick the worst ones, but rather the ones that were most popular. When you finally figure out how to access the comments there (maybe a VPN?), you'll see I wasn't misleading you in any way.

In the last post, I included all the pro-Polish rebuttals.

Poland may view Ukraine as a "strategic ally", but Ukraine does not view Poland in the same way. This is why Polish complaints about ingratitude mostly fall on deaf ears in Ukraine, because in their view it's America and Britain that are helping altruistically - while Poland is just covering its ass.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]

Another fresh article on Ukrainska Pravda, this time about the decision of Polish farmers to prolong the blockade through April. A morning of much fun for Bobko.

Source: epravda.com.ua/news/2024/02/20/710155

Again, I will show you comments that Pawian say do not exist.

Translation (I'm translating the replies too, so you see the pro-Polish aspects):

1) "Again, it's Slavs. Do you take it, that there really are no brothers? A war on two fronts. In this case, the Muscovites have a great chance to occupy the whole of Ukraine. Mobilize us into their army and attack Poland. And our guys will definitely remember what the Poles are doing. They don't remember the good for a long time, but they don't forget the evil they did, and there will be a new division of Poland.

Politicians, think and solve the problem, not start a fire." /// "Grisha you want to fight? Quickly, head to the Eastern Front. They're waiting for you there."

2) "I just had a conversation with some friends from Poland - there is a lot of Ukrainephobia there now. They have always been like that, and the ancient historical habit of treating Ukrainians as masters to serfs - with disdain and contempt - is back.

When the war began, the Pshekas were well aware that the Muscovites would eventually go for them, besides, they sincerely hate and fear them, and here we simply acted as a hypothetical ally. This explains all their help. And there is no need to deceive them." /// "Not everywhere. Mostly working class people. As far as I know: the main mass does not support radicalism in protests. And they don't really like farmers, because they have too many benefits. A lot. Of course, benefits at the expense of buyers. Maybe I'm talking to the wrong Poles?"

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History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

Little old me?

I've done more to engender feelings of brotherly love between Ukraine and Poland, than all of you put together. Surely, I don't deserve this?

History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]


Is it logics?

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Russia supports Palestinians, so naturally Ukraine supports Israelis.

It fits very well into their narrative. Orcs fighting elves, that is.

Civilized, hard-working, and utterly peaceful Israel, was scandalously attacked by backwards, bloodthirsty, and atavistic Palestine.

This Palestine is supported by the same Iran, which produces Shahed drones which attack Kiev.

Need I go on?

Also, they hope that Israel will get over its fear of Russia and finally provide military aid to Ukraine. This is why Russia is careful not to actually assist the Palestinians beyond offering words of support.


No, I chose for you - at first - a very sterile/hygienic source. Because of technical issues and your accusations, I felt you deserved a look at what the more passionate side of Ukrainian society is saying.

The comparison to Polish nationalist papers who enjoy 7% support is not objective, since as I told you Censor.net is Ukraine's most-read news portal.

Furthermore, it became this popular only recently (pretty much during this war). Before, it barely made it into the top ten of websites.

History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

Why does everything have to be about Russia? Is Putin also your God? I thought he was God only of Ukrainians.

This is a thread intended for the discussion of Poland's great friendship with Ukraine, and its historical roots.

Please stay on topic.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


You are beyond help.

You can see, I hope, with your own two eyeballs that the overwhelming majority of comments (both in volume and in popularity) are anti-Polish.

I will tell you more - earlier this morning there were more pro-Polish comments. Some of them, were actually written by Poles in Polish. Then, as always happens on Censor.net when somebody writes something the local nationalist clique doesn't appreciate, it got reported as spam and deleted. Now, all you can see is a little "X" where the comment was.

That's what I was referring to above, when I asked if you think it's Russian bots that are banning Polish posts from Censor.net?

The comments were the same as the one from the Pole on the Pravda website. Exasperated attempts to make Ukrainians see things from a Polish perspective, while nudging them towards showing more gratitude.

Ukrainians don't really like being told by Poles to be grateful, and Ukrainian nationalists especially don't like this. So this morning, a Pole posted a message. Then a Ukrainian nationalist told him to get lost, and called him some bad names. Then another Ukrainian came, and told the Ukrainian nationalist, that because of "Kremlin agents" like him Ukraine may ruin its relations with Poland. The "Kremlin agent" line pushed the nationalist over the edge, and a typical Ukrainian sh!tstorm developed. Then he and his buddies proceeded to delete all the messages about friendship and Kremlin agents.

If you don't believe me, just start visiting Censor daily, and open up articles when they are fresh. You'll see how the local troll brigade suppresses anything Pro-Russian, Pro-Polish, or Pro-Gaza.

Ukraina Uber Alles.


Ahh, so you DO see!

To relax you a little bit, I will remind you again that this website is known to be favorited by nationalists.

History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]


Ukrainians love making lists. It's one of their national obsessions - cataloguing all their various enemies, real and imagined.

They got into some trouble for this, too. Their most popular "list" is a website called Миротворец. Set up after the events of 2014, it catalogues all "enemies of Ukraine". Over the years, some Western people made it into the list, including some journalists and politicians.

Since many people on the list were known to be targeted for extrajudicial killings, this made those Westerners nervous.

Quote:

"On 2 June 2016, G7 ambassadors to Kyiv released a joint statement expressing deep concern about disclosures of journalists' personal data on the Myrotvorets website and called on the Myrotvorets team to withdraw personal data from public access. In 2017 Myrotvorets had a criminal case opened against it by the Ukrainian National Police, and the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) urged Ukraine to investigate the website's operations."

Please be patient with Ukrainians. They are still learning how to be proper Europeans like you.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Either because your text is being translated automatically to Russian (need to select Eng/Ukr/Rus at the top), or simply because it was written in Russian.

Many Ukrainians are now comfortable speaking Ukrainian, but also... many of them are still not comfortable writing in it.

It's hard to write correctly in Ukrainian.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Both Paulina and Amiga have managed to view the comments.

The top comments are decided by "likes". To post a "like", you need to be authorized on the forum.

The guys there have a very good nose for sniffing out Russians who have come to troll. I can confirm this through personal experience.

I still argue that this is a good proxy for judging popular Ukrainian sentiments.

If you can't use comments from the two leading news portals in Ukraine to form an opinion, what the hell are you supposed to do? Do you want me to hire Nielsen and Gallup, so they could do an independent survey for you?

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Ok...

How about the 4th most popular comment:

The second front has been opened officially. An ally has joined Mordor. Considering the silence of the Polish authorities, the inaction of the police, the Polish public is also silent - this indicates that the Poles have officially begun sabotage against Ukraine.

The 5th most popular comment, was left by a lovely lady with screen name "Irenka Ko":

I hope that you Polish motherf*ckers never eat bread because of hunger, war and the Katsap invasion.

Yes, it's all just Bobko's imagination.

It's also Kremlin bots which are reporting pro-Polish comments as spam, and getting them deleted. Uh-huh.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Ehrm... did you notice what the top 3 comments are? They come at the top, before the other comments (screenshot below).

1) Where is the UN that wanted to feed African boys in their underwear. Let Syrian and Afghan boys in underwear, go to Poland and eat grain that is lying on the roads all over Poland.

2) By buying Polish goods and products, you support the Poles who block the border for Ukrainians! Don't buy Polish goods! Boycott

3) Utter filth!

In conclusion, the three most liked comments are negative towards Poland. I rest my case.

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News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


A real Nelson Mandela, you are.

A voice, crying out in the wilderness.

Iron - for shame!

History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]


These three guys are conservative. You are liberal.

Ukraine, by Western standards, is probably 80/20 conservative/liberal. In other words, a Ukrainian liberal would probably be considered far right in the Netherlands.

Most Ukrainians are not yet as civilized as you, Pawian, and have yet to adopt important Western values like gender equality, openness towards migrants and refugees, the healing power of historical reconciliation between victims and perpetrators, or even opposition to colonialism.

So if you think, I went and chose the worst comments - you would be... mistaken.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Out of concern for your fragile emotional wellbeing, I gave you a link to Ukraine's most respected newspaper. Its articles get reprinted in Western publications, and its journalists are regularly awarded for their work. It is overall a liberal paper, that is generally friendly towards Poland and the EU at large.

Yet you accuse me of cherry picking.

Here, enjoy 232 comments instead of 23, from the most Bandera-loving Ukrainians on the internet.

Censor.net is actually the most popular news portal in Ukraine. Ukrainska Pravda is most respected, but not the most read.

Censor is run by Yuri Butusov, an ardent supporter of the AFU, and longtime critic of Zelensky. The article is also from today.

Careful, don't choke when you read these comments. You will find out things about yourself as a Pole, that you never even considered.

Source: censor.net/ua/news/3474431/polski_mitynguvalnyky_zablokuvaly_zaliznytsyu_na_ukrayinskomu_kordoni_ta_rozsypaly_zerno_z_vagonu_video

History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]


Ukrainians that live in Poland, have a better understanding of Polish politics. Sometimes, they drop in on forums and comment sections, and try to explain to their compatriots why Poland does what Poland does.

However, Ukrainians living in Ukraine, have a really distorted view of how Polish politics work. I suppose the same could be said of Polish knowledge of Ukrainian politics.

It is difficult to read what Ukrainians think about how things work in Poland or America, without it raising my blood pressure.

They think that everything, everywhere, must work the way it works in Ukraine. "Putin must have given a boatload of money to Tusk." "The Kremlin must have blackmail on Trump." "We should have known Macron was bought and paid for." "The Russians beat us to the punch with Biden."

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Ehh, Kania told me the same thing with this website.

It uses the Facebook Comments plug-in. Try opening the page in a new browser, or in an incognito window.

Sometimes you don't need to do anything, it simply takes some time for comments to load. Swiping up and down in the area where they are supposed to appear helps.

I have better things to do, than make up fake comments.

I just opened it again, and it has 23 comments. Look how it should appear:

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News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


No representations were made regarding validity.

Just a window into what popular sentiments may look like.

I'm not even cherry picking - the first post with 40 likes, was the most liked post. Also, Ukrainska Pravda does a pretty good job at moderating its comment section for Russian bots (just as some Russian newspapers have to heavily moderate Ukrainian bots).

I think it's fair to say that Ukrainians, at large, are feeling pretty suspicious of Poland right now. This is a big change in sentiment, in less than 24 months.

I think one important aspect, is that their hopes for closer engagement under a Tusk government did not materialize. After everybody told them for nearly a year, that any frictions with Poland would be gone after a liberal prime minister would arrive, they now see that things may actually have gotten worse.

A seed has been planted, in their minds, that Poles are not friendly towards Ukrainians - regardless of who is on top.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [669]


Here, have a taste of your "brave new future". Comments under an article from today, regarding Polish farmer protests, in Ukraine's leading newspaper.

Source: pravda.com.ua/news/2024/02/20/7442712/

Translations:

1) "They are no better than the Russians."/// "This is true, we cannot rely on them."

2) "Why be surprised? Read about what was happening in the 17-18th centuries, and how the Commonwealth behaved. They have always been enemies of Ukraine. The Cossacks would kick their Pans out, but then they would come back and restore control over Right Bank Ukraine."

3) One of your countrymen seems to have had enough after reading Ukrainian comments.

4) "Poles have the essence of a vulture. When Ukraine will begin to lose the war, they will come armed with weapons to finish us off." /// "Agree with you 100%. They just can't wait, so they already started with blockades, ingrates."

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Life / i regret my former post i now love poland [10]


Indeed! In Holy and Catholic Poland - 100% of rapists are homegrown!

Forza Polonia!

History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]


A lot of Ukrainians are suddenly becoming experts in Polish-Ukrainian history.

The farmer protests and border closures are fueling an enormous and unusual interest in history.

As a historian by education, I can only applaud people's efforts.

Genealogy / Crest and the meaning of last name Sumski [33]


Margaret Thatcher once said - "Europe is a product of history, and America a product of philosophy".