Life / Poland - what is your brand? [39]


That is pathetic you cannot even came up with a brand name. You are truly an authentic dimwit and a looser. Can you even find a toiled and do you know who to use it without a map and an instruction, do you even have one - I honestly doubt it. "The best toilet Cleaners in the World" that is a good brand name. All turds beware of the Polish toiled cleaners!

What are you waiting for Alby? Shoo, you're stinking this forum.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I disagree with it. That is a certain interpretation of what has happened. Does it matters now? He got fired. I think he shouldn't be fired.


Geez I do not deny that he had broken the law. I'm point out some issues plus my reasoning why in fact I do not agree with the severity of the punishment he and hospital had been served with.


I think I have explained why in my pervious post.


We can agree to disagree.


Which is redundant and outdated now.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Again?


That is rather obvious isn't it? I rather skip over something which is blindingly obvious to talk about important stuff. What are you taking me for? To deny a fact would make me an unreasonable (looking for a word here ...) Harry?


I expect people to be reasonable adults as they claim to be not an inept tools as there is often the case.
I don't blame her, I only reason rightly that if she knew how to go about VIF she should be able to get herself an abortion without much of a difficulty. Maybe money is the answer - I don't know but can't help to remain suspicious here.


Sure, but in my opinion that is only technicality something that made sense 20 years ago, outdated and redundant now. I would expect a real judge to take it into consideration not just to be a stickler to the letter of the law.

A fine would do the trick - punishment that fit the crime - fire him - no!


Depend on the law. If by breaking that law he would be in accord with a natural law and a morality that it wouldn't bother me.


Many very good doctors do that, goes with the job. The question is has his 'discretion' in this case been so bad that warranted his dismissal? I say - Nay!


That is your opinion that sounds like assassination of character. Lesser people would ask you to prove it or pay up!

News / Poland in the European Union. Polexit? [559]


Really? Bummer they must hurry up!


Nah, this is an American forum, and talking about specific countries or union is just a fantasy of one Serbian.
There is an idea to form - something better than EU in this region.


Well, that a complex story but to put it bluntly those are impostors not to be listen to.

Life / Polish people are the most ignorant people in the world! [335]


Figures! How your desperation to get out of the ghetto worked for you?

Pointer - if you are making unsound generalisations its screams at us in big letters that you're not the sharpest knife in a drawer.

By the way your kin from the gutter represent only themselves.
Pathetic troll, laughable creature or should we rather pity you/? :)

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Sure, saving life is in the job description for a doctor, an abortion is very rarely dangerous to mother's life. In the case of doctor Chazan mother was in no danger. An abortion doesn't equal saving life quite the opposite.


I think we are arguing here about semantics.


Sure, like everything that is being written here is someone opinion but sometimes it is also a fact at the same time.


Several:
First of all she wasn't same stupefied teen but somebody well versed and experienced in all that pertain abortions and pregnancy.
Hence that reliance on a doctor to refer he to somebody else is just pained too large to be truth.

Second of all, I personally think that women is not sane and maybe having to give a birth to a sick child would be a wake up call, she is not buying a doll in the shop for goodness sake.

It wasn't her first pregnancy either.


No, I just think that all that circumstances are shady like a provocation - that all!


Yes, as I said those were protests organized by KOD, a post-soviet establishment stooge without real substantial support among the populace. The can gather a few paid actors if there is must but this time they were joined by many women - in that context it was unexpected.

To see it in the other context - number of the protesters, counting them at max and really generously was about 100 000, whereas project of the law to ban abortion had been signed by more than 500 000.


That is your opinion.


Sure it was. Why would that be somebody else responsibility? That paragraph is outdated.


That what the conflict was about. Professor Chazan claims that doctors have the right to act according with their conscience.
Being an example to others - some one doesn't like it! Some one with the access to the real money - simple.


I beg to differ. She could have go to the same doctor she went to before. Why change a doctor? eh?


Maybe, I don't care. He and PiS are étatist, socialist, pro-EU and softies that talk big but act small.


Poland need to build its own strong economy, their own alliance and their own nuclear weapon and cutting edge technologies, then all those spotlights, groups of interest and lobbyist can go and .......! Since then - who cares?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Nonsense that is only technicality. In non soviet minded court such a case would never stand. It would be enough if he would have said to her - you can find someone on the internet or ask in the reception. More, it could be well argued if she reality wanted that abortion she would find the way easily. After all that woman knew how to go about to get so called IVF treatment.

Unfortunately in Poland majority of judges are not much and the law and its interpretation is soviet in its spirt, not to mention corruption.


No, that is criminal mind-set maketis. That is the way crooks think.
He has his principles he stand by them and he is doing a good job and there is no need for him to be wary of some traps, provocation and other such a shady deals.

System in any normal democratic country should be set to provide protection for law abiding, upstanding, honest citizens even from a poorly worded legislation.
That correction should be done by courts, however courts in Poland are appalling in handing out issues, and evidently not up to task, just rulings are not on the menu, or last on the menu.


He is not a robot. It could be even argued that abortion is not a part of the job description for a doctor.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Professor Bogdan Chazan :)
OK! A woman has been directed to Professor Chazan from a medical centre to terminate her pregnancy. Although it is well know in Warsaw not only in medical circles that he refuses to do that on principle.

That was a second or third pregnancy that woman wanted to terminate due to genetic abnormalities.
By the way all her pregnancies - result of IVF.

Myths and facts:
He prevented her from havening abortion. A lie number one.
He had no way of preventing her from going elsewhere if she wanted to.

He was fired because he refused to do this or that. Not true, he had the right to refuse it.
No, he was fired for political reasons. Pretext - there is an entry in that law that says that a doctor should point out such a woman to a doctor that is willing to help her with her plans to abort that child.

That is merely a technicality, after all in newspapers, internet, anywhere you can find the right dude for a job. We are talking Warswa, we are talking grown married woman not a teen, a women that knew how to go about IVF no less.

However, PO is ruling in Warsaw they used their influence to kick him out, possibly as a favour.

The same people are right now in a deep trouble as it came to light that they are all mixed up in a corruption and theft scandal. That have been going for years and involves millions of dollars, billions even.

My opinion:, that was evidently a provocation, someone used that woman to get rid of the good doctor, either to take his place as the director of that hospital, or because he was standing in the way to expand their venture to make lots of money on the abortion business which is big.

I would look closely with whom Professor Debski is associated, who is in charge of the hospital now and with whom that person is connected? That would answer few questions.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Phew!


Oh, unusual as to KOD's demonstrations, usually in attendance on those events there are a three paid stooges and a dog. There are more actors every time they're to be filmed - not great many people either.

So yes - public interest in those street performances risen from usual none (zero) to ten in the case of the proposed changes of the abortion law.

Accidently, the details of proposed changes have been massively misinterpreted and lied about to the public by the usual suspects in the media.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


It pretty simple. There are people who by their own action stop being protected. If they attack someone or break into a home thereafter can be killed - simple. Basic concept of self-delence.

An unborn child is unable to act hence cannot be excluded from the protection due to its deeds. The only exception being if by her/his very existence engagers a life of the other - mother's.

consistent and logical.


No conscience there - all is clear that all is politically motivated and he was talking as a part of political performance not as an expert. That tells you lots about what kind of a person he is. eh?


That is misinformation.
In Poland at the movement there is a huge political battle, a low profile but ongoing.
A general outline:
Minority of post-commies and co. Mostly connected by all kind of sahey deals and money isues that interwix wioth polocial power, are organizing not very popular staged demistrcions. Protesting against being ousted for the first (second) time for that last 27 years.

Kinda post-commie, opportunistic, financial, mafia, politicians mix that created a kind of establishment in Poland after 1989.

Now, they are not in power anymore and they don't like. They don't have popular support - just some. For the moment majority of Poles (those who vote) are OK with PiS government.

The other side grap any opportunity to cause unrest they can. Because unexpectedly many women turned up for those protests against something that have been lied about in the opposition press.

The same circles are trying to milk it for all its worth by lying some more.
There is no new laws brewing. In my opinion there'll be any more laws on that issue in the foreseeable future. If JK said something its typical political double talk to placate some of his supports who are in favour of change of those laws.

A big no story.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Fair enough, but your feeling as feelings go are illogical. There isn't any logical explain why would you think that a murder or vile murders shouldn't be executed, but at the same time a child that hasn't done anything to anyone could be simply put into a garbage can, or worse used as parts in some medical cures. Make no sense to me.


There is no disagreement as long as she is give a choice in that matter.


Because I read that law, because I have listen to what the lawyers they wrote that law said. Because that doctor and other alleged concerned people are doing nothing else but playing political games aimed to hurt the current government. Hence they cannot be trusted.


No, a doctor can remove it if the mother's life or health is at stake. Do I need to spell it for you? Geez ... sorry Chem but that I have been telling you this from the day one.

Meaning that in the case of after mentioned affliction, such a pregnancy could be terminated without punitive repercussions.


I think that he support himself and his profits that wound be considerable smaller if not for abortions he performs or maybe he is only interested in removing the current government from power as they would make his life considerable more difficult. I don't know for sure - your guess is as good as mine. The one thing is clear that dude is either dumb as an ashtray, has problems with reading comprehension or he was lying through his teeth.


No, I think you're one of those people who comforts to all those principles, prejudices and beliefs that are prevalent in your circles. although you're a smart, ~(an intelligent woman) with some academic background and you as I have already said, know what a debate means. I can always agree to disagree and remain on a respectfully friendly terms with you. Whereas other people in here are either *****************, ideological fanatics or dicks with a chip on their shoulder which is a size of the Alaska. :) Hash tag - not all!

By the way, pardon my French.

News / Let's protest censorship in Poland's mainstream media! [90]


You're displaying a yoru usual ignorance of scientifical facts.

Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]


Well, actually you can. Admittedly it depends on a state you reside in.
--


Personal experience?:) Those methods are not easier and even if they are where is personal choice in that?
--


Guns wouldn't make it more dangerous.
--


Hey, France a truck as a tool to mass murder - rigs a bell? anything can be used to kill, guns can be used also for self-defence, they can and in fact do save lives.

--


There is no logical connection between number and gun in a country and number of committed crimes. Its defies the logic as if a gun would turn people into cold blood killers. Please!

--


Get rid of your fire alarm and a fire extinguisher, you haven't need them in a situation which warranted the use of them.
Guns for a regular person are like a insurance, you'll have no need for it 99% of the time but if you need it then its a life saver. If you don't need it at all what the harm? Such a additional insurance policy should be personal choice.

---


I would say that is a logical point of view. If you are a woman accosted by four to five thugs you are in a deep trouble unless you're a teen ninja hero in disguise. Having a gun (and a know how to use it) even those odds. Right?

--


They watch TV and they hear a liberal, anti-gun propaganda. Reality on the ground is a different kettle of fish.
America has no problems with guns, America has problem with a ghetto culture/life style supported by the Democratic Party, plus outdated laws regarding a mentally ill people, plus open door policy for Illegal immigration from the south, plus the anchor baby law.

All that can be fixed if there was a political consensus to do so.
---


Obama is no a credible person. He flame a racial tension, and then he steps in, saying - hey I can cure it! He is like a fireman who start the fire and is first to fight it to claim a credit as a hero. Sad!

--

Polonia / POLES vs BULGARIANS [160]


You're right on you money.
On the internet you can find a very weird people and trolls.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


You're right of course if you take that sentence out of context. I wrote that sentence trying to make it all simple and clear to you. I guess I should have asked instead - do you Chemikiem believe in the sanctity of human life?

To answer your question.
Not really. There are extenuating cinrcimctenses even if we believe in a sanctity of human. Those circumstances pertain in a one way or other to the issue of self -defence.


I don't apply it just to the life of the unborn child. I apply it to all the people, except for those whose action put them outside the sphere of protection due to the natural law of self - defence.


No double standards.


Geez, how many times........ OK!
Won't be banned or wouldn't be banned OK? That is a lie or manipulation.


and health and health.


I was being kind to him. Maybe he is not a lair but an idiot.


I question his motivations


Don't be silly, lefties are far removed from science and reason, they use only slogans and BS.


Talking about yourself Harry?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Would brain weaves count or a heart bet?


So people on a life support are not humans anymore, we can harvest them for parts? eh?


It stands to reason that the right self -defence would be the only exception. Do you really question that?


For a very simple reason IO know what was in that law because I can read it. In case of pre-eclampsia nothing of the sort would have happened and mother's life would be fully protected.


Who is not a lawyer by any stretch of imagination and who has a vested interest in defending status quo. To put it simple that dude was lying. It possible that our good doctor is unable to read a considerably simple text with comprehension.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Wow, just give up and take part in discussion more suitable to your "needs", like a pop music or the last fashion maybe.


prove it!

News / Poland's post-election political scene [4080]


Tsk tsk, any evidence of that?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Not really, that is pretty straightforward if you get to the chase.


I don't get what you try to say here Chemikiem. Its simple only if a life is on stake we can talk about extenuating circumstances. Other qualifiers from a leaflet "life is not that simple" do not count.


Exactly. No reason to pave the way for it with but... but... I meant good - is there?


Maybe by not mentioning it in every post? Especially that I don't expect you to share or take into account religious or moral arguments of the RCC.


Geez, if such a pregnancy would be a threat to the mother's life than of course she would be given a choice in that matter. That one is obvious. Its logical as well. Otherwise all that going on wouldn't make any sense. Honestly Chemikiem it is so obvious that I don't even know what it is that you don't understand here?

To me it sound like a dumb propaganda of the lefties. Oh women will be forced to have children, Oh women life will be less worthy than that of the child, oh .....some more of nonsensical whine to scare slow witted people.

If the defence of an unborn child is build on premise that all human life is sacred and people have no right to kill others then it became blindingly obvius that that sanctity pertains to both a mother and a child. By a logical extension Eh?


In the light of your standing on the issue it comes down to your personal preference. You might be outvoted one day on this.


I'm well aware of the fact and hence my argument shouldn't be read as a support of the proposed legislation but as argument what is right and what is wrong. However it is logical and irrefutable fact that so called foetuses are in fact children in the particular stage of their development.

Once people will get it, there'll be consensus. Only few ideologically biased evil worshipers would deny science and logic - primitive fanatics bringing back backwoods ideas from 2000 years in the past.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


No, the most important thing in here is to establish ground rules. Either we agree that society has the right to dispose/kill a human being or not. That is the real issue here not creating some extenuated circumstances that would make such a practise acceptable on a personal level.


I would think that you could worry about quality of life if you would have a life in the first place. Otherwise it is a pointless exercise. Sounds like an excuse to me.


I suppose that you're under impression that your point of view is reasonable and practical at the some time. Whereas I can see consequences looming on the horizon.

It is the point of no return, once you agree that society or individual women have the right to kill, there is no way back. You might set a very strict conditions under which an abortion would be possible. Yet, it wouldn't matter one wit as it is only an arbitrary decision that hasn't been based/founded on any higher principle.

Such a law would and will be modified as to broaden "acceptable" conditions to dispose a human being.
It's only useful as a political compromise in a society that is divided in their views on that issue. A Mexican standoff.


Good point.:)


On the other hand I wanted to point out that their medical state will surely be monitored by their doctors and hence in all circumstances when such a life threatening condition would appear there'll be an appropriate response made be a responsible medical team. All those unspecified legal obstacles that would put the mother's life in jeopardy as a less worthy are in my opinion a figment of overactive imagination.


I would hardly call it backing. You seems to be obsessed by the RCC. In my opinion hierarchy of the CC done nothing to back it up. Not to mention they could if they had balls excommunicate all those politicians that are voting in favour of pro-abortion legislation.

Its not a Church as it should be, there is not backbone of the Inquisition, they're soft and in bed with liberals and a pro-gay lobby.


Because PiS politicians are crude costumers when it comes to the art of politicks and anytime they want to do something 'clever' it backfire into their faces. Not because most of them are pro-life as you imply.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


The know medical fun fact for you, a foetus is not part of her.


Maybe, but in my opinion it doesn't justify abortion, euthanasia or what have you.


Are you a part of some sexist sect?


I'll address that matter in due time if you don't mind. I need to check up the facts first.


No it won't. I mean for one there is no new laws being passed in the foreseeable future. If similar laws were to be passed none would allowed for such a reversal to be bounding. It would be wrong form the moral and logical point of view.

I guess I say that wouldn't happen. That is quite clear.


As if people believing in a sanctity of human life wouldn't know anything about medicine, that is somehow presumptions. :)


Even 500,000 to 1 doesn't justify abortion.


Some primitive ape said that. Zeroing everything to the politics and flatting issue like a pancake.


She probably tells the truth. Thing is PiS have in their numbers a few dumb thickhead who know squat about politicks and every time they try to play clever they screw it up badly.


Religious based nothing, the church didn't support that legislation nor excommunicated those politicians who vote pro-abortion laws. As such hierarchy showed itself to be part of the establishment of soviets, soviet moles and hypocrites and as such should be cleansed.

Life / Is a prescription needed to get morning after pills in Poland? [35]


Practise and a human nature at the state of thoughtless teens gave an answer to your maybes. Quite the opposite. Anyway that is not a rocket science!

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Well, all people die after they are born, sometimes it take a couple of days or hours and sometimes for years. Logically we should kill them all, after all they'll die anyway.


There is no cause for claiming that one life will be valued more than other expect for the leftie scaremongering and lies. I don't see why would you believe for a moment that such would be a real case?!


No, those manifestations were taking place in the name of a choice.


I see you have been fed lies. Let me tell you what it all has been about. Later thought if you don't mind.


That is your take on the issue and you're simply guessing. There is no way that such a law would be passed. I don't even understand where are you taking it all from.


Doctors and scans are not infallible.


Chemikiem, I'm not about to falter anyone even if I could gain due to that. You're usually making a good argument and that is a fact.

Life / Is a prescription needed to get morning after pills in Poland? [35]


Don't be absurd.

Life / Is a prescription needed to get morning after pills in Poland? [35]


Nothing to consider that one is obvious to anyone with a brain.


Yes are consequences. A big word, I know.


I think it is better not to kill children.


Oh, yes a law doesn't work need to be abolished. Let's start with the law that says that murder is a crime. Eh?


What will they suffer?

News / Poland hopes to attract hard-working, trouble-free immigarnts - Ukrainian, Belarusians and Vietnamese [139]


First of all one has nothing to do with the other. Muslim illegals suppose to be refugees which gives them different status than those of immigrants or migrant workers. Why're you mixing those two separate issues I don't know.

Second of all What is so wonderful about encouraging Ukrainians and others to seek jobs in Poland? How about do something for real like reducing taxes on those people who actually work, including ZUS paid by employers. That would be a step in a good direction and more jobs for the people in Poland.


Over million Ukrainians are already working in Poland plus some number of Belarusians about 100 000 Vietnamese. What I don't understand why that fact is presented as some kind of success or a great economic plan.


Those issues are not connected. People who are driving parallels between them are clueless.

Life / Is a prescription needed to get morning after pills in Poland? [35]


Since when killing unborn children has been a part of the plan?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I'm not. I only say that it doesn't matter. You insists it does. Would you care to explain why according t o you it does?


No the point of this discussion is to make our position clear. You told me that you don't believe in SOHF. Fair enough, we agree to disagree. What is a matter?


Would you kindly FO from Chemikiem? She is one of those rare posters on PF that doesn't take debates personally and actually is making a good argument and is a joy to debate with.

Jealous? Take a hike!


Never said that you're stupid maff. You're one of these people who actually have a brain but hesitate to use it.


Hey your 'debate' with Polonius is like a kindergarten play - you say your part and no, no, no to all P say and he is doing the same, it is so boring, I don't see nothing interesting in repeating the same argument over and over again in more innovative ways.

Your defence of PO boils down to two points - either you have a vested interest in them.(or)
Your limited knowledge of Poland and the lingo lead you to a conclusion that somehow PO is a liberal force in Poland.
If that is the former you are a hypocrite, if that is the latter you're a fool. I personally don't care either way.

Funny that you care enough (while refusing to debate me, and considering that I by the large leave you alone on this forum) to barge into somebody else convo that has nothing to do with you, in such a low demining manner just to insidiously try to insult me.

I would say maf that that indicate a very serious flaw in your character, you sneak.
Is that a cry for attention, perhaps? I might be able to help you with that.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Who told you that is not? That is another BS from you. What matters is what you believe in as an adult. In this case you either do or you don't. That's all that matter here.

Hey, I protest I have nothing to do with you habit of running around in circles. That is your problem.


No, because you make no sense.


I don't know what will happen. We're talking about opinions here, not about legislations.
It means that I'm telling you my take on the issue. Other than that nothing much to tell. We can only debate future legislation after the fact not before.


I can say that is not because all you talking about is only a projection of your views. You cannot judge a book by its cover and you cannot express any meaningful opinion on a law before legislation process is completed.

Putting the child's life before that of the mother would be wrong and illogical as going against sanctity of life. If you really believe that anyone would support such a law you must have been brushing elbows with the wrong crowd.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Nobody forces no one in Poland to have children. I fail to see the point of you bringing some pieces of an unrelated info up.


She'll know for certain that there was nothing she could do. That there were not a medical error at play and that she is not responsible for killing her own child. I would say that a real woman would be given a peace of mind after a mourning period.

On the other hand she could be a confused mess with a "modern" mind but then there is already too late and nothing would bring her mind back. Lost in action.

The real question you don't ask is what about a choice? what if a woman doesn't believe in sanctity of human life? What if she doesn't care? That is the real issue to tackle and very complex at that.


I don't care about her feelings. Sorry, but if she need to kill a child to "feel" better she shouldn't ask for my compassion.

My reasoning is purely logical and consistent. We all need to take a stand somewhere, embrace some belief (well those who matters). What does it matter? Sanctity of human life is a simple concept, easy to grasp with which your either agree or not, or either you share or not. Why Bring the Church into it? Because we share the same concept?

Hell, to be even I should bring in Lenin and Hitler and the 20th century eugenics. Asking where from you got that notion about abortion. Who is closer to your hearth Commies or the Nazis? maybe racists and so on and on ....you got the idea.

Those are childish games I dislike.
Make your argument if you can, if not give it up.


If there is one change on 1000 that those major disabilities are just a medial error and are not that major that it is in itself worth to be cautious and go easy with applying an 'abortion' as 'cure'.

Hell, you and the RCC are of the some mind. You got it right.


So? They have the right to express their views. The point is too many activist and politicians trying to get their interest going with their meaningless slogans. Hard on ears. On the other hand there were one or two women who made sense - talking about choice.

I'm always happy if there is a good argument to be had or a valid point to be made.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


No, I told you that it all boil down to whether or not you believe that human life is sacred. Either you do or you don't.

If you do and have issues with my stance. It is you who have a problem. You're confused and inconsistent.
If you don't - we agree to disagree.
Religion doesn't enter into it. I'm not talking about God or religion. Let it sink in!


Well, said at the moment, step by step, a soft revolution. No thank you! No pasarn! lol.


I'm talking about logical consequences - not about who said what!


No one is advocating such a law. That is just a tool in a propaganda war. That is pure no-sense and I'm sorry but I'm really disappointed that you would buy into it.


Mistakes had been made and prenatal tests are far from prefect. What would they gain? - a peace of mind.


Is it? Sure, I believe that all human life is sacred and that might something to do with my upbringing. Apart from that I don't make any religious based argument or arguments based on religion and my stance is based on purely logical reasoning.

I find it funny to an extent that you fall back to the 'religion' argument a rebus. By all mean tell me how my logical arguments are not logical because my mind have been "contaminated" by a religious upbringing. (wasn't that religious thought) lol!

Good luck with that!


Well, that is debatable. I say that calling for 'aborting' the children that are not 100% healthy is a pure hypocrisy. what more once you decide that you can make such a decision, that is all goes down the hill. Somebody else would decide that kids that are not blue eyed children are a far game too. (eugenic)Why the poor or people on benfits should be given a break they are burden on a society and should be given a 'late abortion' treatment.

As I said, it all boil down to a simple choice - either you believe that human life is sacred or not.

If you do, it is not your call to say who is gonna die and who is gonna live.