Feedback / I love this forum - It's so Polish: tolerant, inconsistent, amusing [337]

Homophobia equals ignorance, pure and simple. G_d loves all, gay, straight, virtuous or sinners, WITHOUT DISCRIMINATION! We humans can never expect to live up to the highest standards of divine morality, but we can still try. That's supposedly why churches exist; man errs constantly, thus, needs constant reminding on the proper way to act, to live, to think:-) While there can be some degree of variation with such, the most important thing is thinking along common lines which bring us a little closer together. WIthout an unwavering standard, all is lost. When the church, temple etc. fails and gives into mere human prejudice, that's when we all better start praying!!

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@Maf, I take your point and doubtless numerous Germans share your deep dissatisfaction with Merkel's clearly failed migrant policies! However, when you mention that the populace were never "consulted" regarding such policies aka were never allowed a plebiscite vote, for example, as exists (or at least existed) in , for example, Switzerland with their "Volksentscheid", I must remind you that almost never are citizens consulted directly concerning their government's policies!! It surely doesn't exist at present in today's America. It must therefore be regarded as a that rare exception, rather than the rule:-)

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I maintain that German has not lost its hegemony on the European scene, regardless of how hated or reviled both the language and people remain!

Vietnamese who survived America's unprovoked, undeclared war on their country doubtless hate American, Americans and American English with equal passion as much as anyone who survived the Shoah hates Germany, the former realizing though that American English as well as the United States is/are their economic as well as their social future:-) German and Germany represent the future, not the past, to those scores of "unwanted" migrants.

The analogy does hold up if one stops to think about it!

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Oho, don't kid yourself! German is THE prestige language of Europe now because of the German-speaking countries, especially the FRG, which is the engine driving the continent momentarily:-)

Not only has German always been immensely practical, but during the Cold War, it was the language which connected East and West. Russian too, of course. It's also a popular second language in Asia, after and even along with, English.

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Here in the States, particularly gateway cities such as New York, numerous Russian, Chinese, Hispanic immigrants have lived for sometimes over twenty years, yet still don't really know English:-) Many are citizens too, with passport, their own home, car and permanent employment.

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As in many such industrialized nations with multi-lingual immigrants:-)

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One hopes they do.

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Sarazzin's adopting a similar tack much as with the US academic theorist Murray, attempting to "prove" that the African-American gene pool has more limited brain power than that of an corresponding Caucasian, male or female. Sarazzin pits Turks against ethnic Germans in a rather eugenicist manner in an attempt to frighten the ordinary German (as with Hispanics and Blacks here in the States) that their country's being overrun by dark hordes who multiply like jack rabbits and threaten the host culture aka "Leitkultur".

All pretty pernicious stuff, if you ask me.

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Ahemm, kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth! I never denied that there are problems, merely that hateful aka bigotted rhetoric helps nobody!
Sure, Sarazzin's arguments are no different from any other racist, adopting prejudicial statements to support inconclusive theories:-)

Hoecke, even Petry, maintain they're not racist, they're merely looking out for their country's best interests. Those are the best? What then are the worst?

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Many, many thanks there, Tacitus! But then, I'm not surprised. The revisionist is solely concerned with revisionism, seldom with facts.

You see, Maf? Blind faith in the opposing side for opposition's sake can be a dangerous thing:-)

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?? Thread topic, please:-)

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You realize of course, while I'm NOT "worrying" about itLOL, that many non-Western Europeans make equally scathing blanket judgements about us too:-)
Cuts both ways! Intolerance is a double-edged sword (no cliche or pun intended) whose cutting edge wounds both hate groups alike.

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Maf, my whole point is that you're running the risk of judging an entire peoples by that "bad lot" in Cologne! For the umpteenth time, do we enlightened folk eternally castigate ALL Germans as Nazis, ALL Italians as Mafiosi, ALL Jews against the hateful, rabid rhetoric of a Meier Kahan etc...????!

Where does it end?

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However, those protesters in Hamburg are bloody impatient for said change, "undemocratically" as well they may be expressing their impatience:-)

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Security?? Whose, pray? That of the native-born ethnic locals, or of the migrants, many of whom actually CHOSE to live in Germany?

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I agree to an extent, jon. Admittedly, burkas, kijabs or anything of that sort do clash with the predominant Judeo-Christian majority of Europe. Allowing people to wear such however is no more than fair if those who wear them respect the practices of the majority among whom they live, what's more, honor their PLACE within that majority culture, teeth-gnashingly frustrating as it may be for the latter to accept.

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Maf, I'm no more advocating migrants as pawns in power politics any more than you or any thinking person! Of course the results of her failed policies are shameful, but that surely musn't mean that we throw out the baby with the bathwater:-)

A Europe without foreigners in her midst, as in the "good old days", huh? Come on, dude! How can a future of happiness possibly be built on a past of someone else's misery without eventually crumbling under the weight of its own evil?

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Maf, are you forever going to hold against migrants IN GENERAL the heinous actions of a dastardly few?

The whole point Merkel's making about the concept of "tolerance" and the like is that it's not worth beans if it's too easy to be tolerant; like Christian virtues such as charity, it's only valuable when it hurts! This is the solely valid acid test for humanity. As soon as we humans begin making excuses and trying to short circuit real life by removing the necessary sting of unpleasantness, we become no better than the Nazis themselves who promised Germany a future without sickness, sadness, pain...in a phrase, a world without conscience:-)

I'm no saint, neither are you, neither are any of us. Yet, we ARE human and so long as we attempt to perfect our imperfect selves there'll always be hope for a brighter tomorrow.

Don't abandon those sentimental ideals, Maf! One day you'll find they're the only things worth living and dying for.

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You're arguing in terms of "facts" which don't enter into this type of discussion. Maybe Sarazzin's, Hoecke's, Gedeon's "facts" are all correct, for argument's sake! Merely because someone or something is logical, doesn't necessarily make it right or just:-)

The more you abandon the liberalism and tolerance of our forefathers, the quicker you pave the path straight to hell!
I know many younger Germans particularly, have been crying "empathy fatigue" for a while now.

The truth of the matter remains that compassion has no statute of limitations. Supposedly, this is what separates civilized humans from barbarians.

Again, if you want revisionist thinking, contact our friend the late Prof. Hillgruber and I'm sure he could render you some valuable assistance.....from wherever he isLOL

Concerning Trump's polarizing presence at the G-20 Summit in Hamburg, he continues to refute any insinuations that possibly, just possibly, he could be adding more fuel to the fire already consuming Europe.

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I'm not "lashing out" at anyone, only expressing impatience at supposedly intelligent posters such as you, falling for easy answers to infinitely complex problems!

Sarazzin has expressed a yearning for a migrant-free Germany, perhaps not in precisely those words, but nonetheless wishes for a more homogeneous FRG. While understandable, this is dangerous rhetoric which plays on the simple minds of those who once upon a time supported Hitler.

No answers to important questions are ever simple, Maf! As a fellow American, I doubt either of us can adequately come up with a reasonable compromise to our own immigration crisis. Ban Muslims? What will King Donald The Dodo think up next? We've never been too far from "Fahrenheit 451", you know.

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Traditionally however, what has often stymied Germany's smooth entree onto the world stage has been her intransigent inability to compromise! Such inflexibilty not only led to the declaration of war, but, twice in the last century, to the loss of that war owing to a nearly intractible rigidity which often failed to take into account the unexpected, the illogical, the serendipitous, in short, the element of surprise.

Let us hope that Ms. Merkel or her successor will not make future tactical blunders:-)

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I'd rather be loved, at best respected, certainly rather than feared or hated:-)

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Tacitus, Germany remains the rich, unpleasant uncle of whom everyone's sort of afraid, yet whom everyone needs when they don't have enough money:-)

A simplistic response to your comment, yet apt just the same, wouldn't you agree?

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WE??!! I think the shoe's on the other foot, sir:-)
lol

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You're telling me:-)

Anyhow, a number of European nations are concerned once again that Germany has become too economically powerful and will steamroller her way across the continent, making it harder for less economically stable countries such as Greece etc.to be able to compete globally.

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There's interpretation, and then there's revisionism:-)

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There's plenty of historical revisionism to go around, Tacitus. Just contact telepathically the late Andreas Hillgruber and his well-known thesis for confirmation:-)

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Drang nach Osten referred to the German historical equivalent of America's "Manifest Destiny" during the mid-to latter part of the 19th century, in which the US-Gov.t felt it was her almost G_d-given right to move West and settle America's personal stake in her own future as divine providence foretold:-) The Native Americans interfered with that future and were hence subject to annihilation. Germany went in the so-called "opposite" direction, claiming her frontiers lay way to the East and that it was Germany's destiny to create Lebensraum in Slavic lands, from which, naturally, the Slavs would be displaced, peacefully if possible, forcibly, indeed brutally, if necessary, in order to make room for the deserving Germanic peoples.

You're comparing apples and oranges, Crow, AS USUAL:-)

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???? What on earth are you crowing about?

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Whereas Poland may have right-tilting tendencies which make Trump seem appealing, the same cannot be said for mainstream Germany. The protesters in Hamburg are extremists, and extremists of whichever stripe, be they right or left, can pose a danger, even to a hopefully stable democracy:-)