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Posts by Bratwurst Boy  

Joined: 2 Apr 2007 / Male ♂ 		Last Post: 18 hrs ago
Threads: Total: 9 / Live: 5 / Archived: 4
Posts: Total: 12528 / Live: 4783 / Archived: 7745 		From: Berlin, Germany
Speaks Polish?: No
Interests: his helmet

Displayed posts: 4788 / page 137 of 160
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Bratwurst Boy   
30 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

It's good to be cautious, especially when it comes to dealing with a country that has been brutal toward Poland (and other nations) so many times.

Not more than others I would say...and hadn't it been Poles who once conquered Moscow or invaded with Napoleons troops?

Would modern Poles like to be treated as hostile conquerer and invaders by modern Russians?

In my view, the process of forgiveness has been severely stalled by Putin but will eventually resume once he's gone, and one day he will be.

Well, if I remember it correctly it was Putin who was the first official Russian ever bowing before the polish victims of Katyn.

Did that escape somehow your attention? *seriously puzzled*
Bratwurst Boy   
30 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Well, I think it was a great step what happened recently in the Katyn affair (Putin admitting that it had been Russians, acknowledging and regretting openly and officially)...demanding more and more and still blaming and hating them is a sure way to make the Russians regret what they admitted already. You cannot go from 0 to 100...such a process needs time.

If you want to stop any beginning reconciliation...go on Olga, you are on the right path!
Bratwurst Boy   
30 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

"principled"???

Stop demanding more from the Russians than you do from others...they have their own problems and surely some things are seen differently over there...heaping scorn and contempt at them is not helping!

Putin has an astounishing number of voters and supporters, so what he says and does seems to be seen as good and positive with the majority of Russians, we have to accept that.

Germany did put up with years of rule of the polish "terrible twins", it was bad for our mutual relationship but we endured, after all it was the decision of the Poles.
Bratwurst Boy   
30 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Russia isn't North Korea...differentiation is needed here too.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Russia

The Government of the Russian Federation (Russian: Прави́тельство Росси́йской Федера́ции) exercises executive power in the Russian Federation. The members of the government are the prime minister, the deputy prime ministers, and the federal ministers. It has its legal basis in the Constitution of the Russian Federation and the federal constitutional law "On the Government of the Russian Federation".[1]

There are goodies and baddies, conservative, hard core stalinists, communists, liberal, progressive...whatever you want.

And they have regular elections...hardly a dictatorship.
Bratwurst Boy   
30 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Saakashivili didn't start anything.

He wasn't an innocent lamb either!
He tried to play games and lost...

Russia likes to twist history to suit its over-inflated ego. The truth of the matter is, Russia is just a big sh*t-disturbing bully.

Nothing beats a generous one-sentence judgement of millions of people, doesn' it....

I know it's cancelled, but the decision for such to begin with certainly says a lot about the Communist mentality pervasive in your country's government.

It says alot about the open discussion about this for many people uncomfortable, difficult topic...the outcome of that is a good sign and should be seen as such even by the most determined russophobes!

Acknowledging such signs and developments isn't going to kill you, you know?
Or else progressive Russians might come to think: "Why struggling so hard to come to terms with our past if they keep on hating us?"

In Germany such a thing would had been forbidden by law without any open discussion whatsoever. That is worse in my opinion!
Bratwurst Boy   
29 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

The crimes we speak about are accepted as crimes by everybody and put to history books as crimes.

That's what I would ask you Jed....are such massacres by the Soviet Army known in Russia today? Are they talked about? Or is it only the german crimes which are known....
Bratwurst Boy   
29 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Yes, our fault that they found the mass grave that late....sorry, so sorry!

There are still more mass graves to unearth....it will follow us for a long time I fear.
What do you advise Seanie....you find a grave with murdered people and just let it go?
Would you do the same if it were scottish women and children?
Bratwurst Boy   
29 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

I would want to leave it for history and historians. We are not able to save lives and even not able to punish criminals. Time passed and it is too late.

So...you think it would be better to let it rest? No investigation? Not finding out what had happened to these civilians? Who did it what?

Would you see it the same if it were russian civilians murdered by the SS?

The international community must hold its hands up in shame and acknowledge that the time has passed. Punishing people after 70 years is plainly absurd and it would send out a very bad message to would-be wrongdoers.

Would you say the same to Poles who so long fighted that Russia acknowledges the crime of Katyn? All these NKVD murderers are dead...should they stop caring?
Bratwurst Boy   
29 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

But what if we start to investigate all Nazis crimes on FSU territory? There are still a lot left without any investigation.

I don't think there is an army which was as much investigated as the german.
You are free to investigate all the crimes, you did already.

but I also don't trust to any German or Polish investigator in this case

How about doing that yourself?

Why don't people punish crimes when they happen?

Because it wasn't possible?
How could the Germans and the Poles demand a trial and punishment for the murderers in the Soviet army after the war? Katyn needed 70 years.....

The only other possibility is to start a war again. I wouldn't like the idea, but if you insist...

I don't understand you....
You would want to go to war to defend some war criminal who murdered women and children?
You think because you won the war there is no need to go after your war criminals?

Boy...you are further away from any true reconciliation than I thought! In case you don't know, waiting till the problems and questions are dying away won't work. Your skelets in the closets are only going away if they are out in the open. Be it in 50 or 100 years.

PS: Look in a mirror when you next time want to heap your anger at some little baltic parade...they honor their veterans as you do.

They care about the crimes they possible did as much as you do!
Bratwurst Boy   
29 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Is there someone in Russia who would be interested to find out about the murderers and would he be successful taking them to trial?

...
MALBORK, Poland, Jan 14 (Reuters) - Polish authorities have unearthed the remains of 1,800 bodies and expect to find even more in a mass grave first discovered three months ago and believed to date back to the final days of World War Two.

The site is in a corner of northern Poland that was part of Germany until 1945 and the authorities suspect the remains are of ethnic German civilians, at least some of whom were probably killed by advancing Soviet forces.

"We are dealing with a mass grave of civilians, probably of German origin. The presence of children... suggests they were civilians," ...

Bratwurst Boy   
29 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Should we blame our old veterans of WWII in any crimes? It will never happen.

Even if some of them are guilty? One example:
uk.reuters.com/article/idUKLE459966

What if one of those veterans took part in this? Are you absolving him too?
Bratwurst Boy   
29 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

But it is not politically correct to remember it and now Russians are the only guilty in all those crimes

It's like with Germans and Austrians...;)
Bratwurst Boy   
29 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Correct me if I'm wrong I read that Hitler held referendums regarding his handling of Germany's affairs, and each time had a 98% yes vote from the public.

I never heard of that but I would distrust any outcome that high...it doesn't sound democratic.

During the war in Britain Stalin and the Red Army were hailed as the saviours of the free world.

War time propaganda..isn't it lovely. But once the West accepted that they needed Stalin, what else should they have told their soldiers? It was a crazy time...
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

I don't think banning symbols and certain topics is a good thing either.
But the allies started it during the occupation and later there was not much will/interest to go through the moves to "re-allow" it again.

I don't believe there exist a group which really could become dangerous, with Swastikas or without.
Not many people left who believe Hitler was a good thing for Germany in the end.
Without him we would had very probably reached our current status much earlier and more peacefully.

No, Hitler started it by declaring it.

Well, GB and France started it with declaring war on Germany. YOU started the war Seanie! So...there...
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

We are trying to do the same without external force by ourselves.

Good luck...:)

(It's quite nice and refreshing to talk to some real Russians instead of getting all the info solely from the media - the image one gets can become skewed easily)
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Is there a need to do that?

If history books for the young ones are changed and rewritten to paint a white washed, sanitized picture, then yes.

Would you accept if Germans would start differentiate the Nazi history and point out that most people liked actually living in the Nazi era and that Hitler had so much support till to the end and why? Officials praising Hitler in the media???

If Swastikas would be allowed etc.?

I could see Germany's neighbours getting nervous...so Russia must accept that their neighbours watch modern Stalin-praise equally suspicious.
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Hitler plans for Slavs and other "lower" race people are in his published books and he had no opportunity to complete his plans. But his failed start was very impressive.

He was very sick at '45 already...he would had died soon and another one (more sane) would had taken over.

I don't think this "all Slavs would be killed" scenario would had come through...

There were to much initial support and collaboration only Hitlers madness failed to utilize but the commanders on the front had no problems to work with anti-soviet/anti-stalinist fighters, Slavs or not!

When you look at german propaganda of that time you will always read only about the fight against Bolshevism, not so much against an slavic "Untermensch"...

Victory or Bolshevism

Europes victory - your prosperity

Europes victory - your prosperity
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Well, for you - may be. I don't know who are you but it's even possible Hitler would be even good for you – if you belong to the right race from Hitler’s point of view (nothing personal).

Of course...;)

But then I would not have liked to live as entrepeneur, academic or well off peasant under Stalin, it would have been very probably a miserable and short life.

Personally for me and for all other Russians and Slavs Hitler name means death or slavery without any hope. With Stalin we somehow survive and may now talk to you.

Honestly I don't think so....it's a big "what if" and the Nazis used Slavs as helpers and willing collaborateurs too.

They both were devils but they had different criteria for mass murders - race and nationality for Hitler and economic classes without any relation to nationality for Stalin.

Agreed!
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

BB, Hitler started WWII. Stalin merely reacted later and joined the war to tan Nazi hide.

I thought they met in Poland...
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Well, I personally don't think Hitler was worse than Stalin....he didn't prey on his own people at least and Stalin killed many more people!

But then...it's a matter of perception....
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Certainly grates on my ears. I only cherish a hope that this piece of art is not what they write in your press.

I apologize!
But there is a certain amount of puzzlement in Germany, especially as in recent times (as the media reported) a kind of white washing of Stalin and his era in the history books and national discourse seems to take place.

I especially became puzzled as in the build up to the coming May party there were shown and interviewed people who had no problems to praise and to adore Stalin and his deeds, many of them old veterans. Excuse me for getting ideas...

(And you need more than just a handful of NKVD's to kill and to deport MILLONS!)

We are talking here a regime which killed MILLIONS of your own people Sasha.

ROA - Russian Liberation Army - colaborated to Nazis and were our enemies.

Were they?

They wanted to remove Stalin and his regime, didn't they....
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

There was a civil war in 1918-20 - White movement lost, most educated people were killed. Any resistance was supressed with mass murders.

Many of those fighted with the Wehrmacht later to have a go at their red oppressors, didn't they...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

May be it would help us to remove Stalin and communism earlier and save more lives.

Was there resistance? Who could have done the "removing"?
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

Don't misunderstand me Sasha...it's not about me, my Opa or Germany.
We came clear with our past.

It's the russian way of thinking what puzzles me...you are the most opressed, murdered, abused people in Europe and instead of fighting this you still revere and honor your opressors!

We will see that in May again.

Many of those veterans were also part in killing Russians (I mean it wasn't the Marsians which killed and deported so many millions of your own), I'm sure of it....but you cheer them like...well....brain amputated, stockholm syndrom suffering, idiots, sorry to say that!

Stalin and his helpers killed much more of your own than the Germans ever could...
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

The problem was who was more evil - and in that period of time even Stalin was better than Hitler.

At least he didn't concentrate on killing his own people..
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

They won war. Losers can call them "criminals" - I can understand it but it doesn't matter.

Well, you are right...as long as your people don't start yourself nobody can help you...
You have to live with it, not us! After all they oppressed and killed their own people more than any other...*shrugs*

PS: You would probably call the victims of Stalin's russian "Katyn" losers too... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

Losers, yes?
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

My opinion?

That isn't a matter of opinion...aren't you yourself not interested in finding out and punishing war criminals?

But then...most of your people were also murdered by your own people, not the Nazis, it must be hard for a Russian to accept that and ignoring that past and denying that must be much easier.

You are good at that!

How many of those still marching stalinist veterans had been in the murdereous NKVD? The plague of your own people for much longer than the the war and the Nazis existed!

You think you won? For Germany it was over '45, you got 50 more years of oppression, secret police and Gulags...
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

There are not criminals - they are true heroes and winners. Criminals - forever - are those who lost WWII.

How do you know? Where there any trials? Ever?

Little or nothing.

How do you know?

Were war criminals, murderer and rapists ever punished?
Bratwurst Boy   
28 Apr 2010
News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]

I wonder how many of the old veterans marching in the victory parade every 9th May are war criminals, maybe even were there in Katyn or raping their way till Berlin...