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Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?


Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
7 Aug 2019  #211
Therefore what as it relates to the Uprising? What you wrote is self-evident, except for intensity of feelings which is open to debate.
Plus, the way you wrote does not make it clear who hated whom in that matrix of hateful madness. I, for one, hate the American liberals like Pelosi and AOC a lot more that I hate Germans or Russians. Actually, the last two groups I don't hate at all.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
7 Aug 2019  #212
The most horrific massacres took place in Wola district, just after Hitler`s direct order that nobody would be spared.





Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
7 Aug 2019  #213
Is it possible that if the AK coordinated the Uprising with the Soviets to make their crossing the river safer and sooner into the sections where AK was in control, then the liberation of Warsaw would be a lot less bloody?
Miloslaw 6 | 1,815
7 Aug 2019  #214
Is it possible

Of course not.
The Russians had no interest in helping The Poles at all.
They even blocked the allied air aid from flying from their territory.
The Poles hoped that they could hold of The Germans and then hold off or do a deal with The Russians from a position, politically, if not militarily, of strength.It was a long shot, it failed, but in such desperate times, it was better than surrender.

I asked you before, but you ignored me, what would you have done?
Fought like a lion?
Begged like a chicken?
Or ran away like a rat?
Only three possible answers, anything else is obfuscation.
Lyzko 20 | 6,342
7 Aug 2019  #215
Liberals are always and have always been easy targets for haters of all species, in essence, because the Left has refused to submit to established convention which targets those by less "able", shall we say, by labeling, bad-mouthing, and bullying!

Once it was conventional to label slower pupils as "retarded" and to call them nasty names because they couldn't defend themselves. It was convention, until the "liberalization" of US textbooks to claim that white men alone discovered America, they and they alone, who made it the great country which it later became. Well, the Native Americans predated even St. Brendan and later the Vikings to our shores. The whites won the Revolution, and yet who but the Left had the courage to bring up the likes of Crispus Attucks who helped score a needed victory in the Boston Massacre? Who but the hated Libitards and "Snow-flakes" brought to the fore that it was the Chinese who helped build our railroads, unsung heroes that they were? Sure, there were problems with many minority groups, and yet if you were part of the disen-franchised masses, of course you'd want somebody to speak up on your behalf, and don't lie, saying you wouldn't, since nobody would believe you anyway.
mafketis 20 | 7,046
7 Aug 2019  #216
what would you have done?

he woulda svcked Russian &***, just like he does now
Miloslaw 6 | 1,815
7 Aug 2019  #217
I suspect you are right.
But let him answer.
mafketis 20 | 7,046
7 Aug 2019  #218
and he'd spit on the corpses of murdered Poles... like he does now....
Miloslaw 6 | 1,815
7 Aug 2019  #219
Ultra fast responses Maf, I can barely keep up!
Yes, his posts have been extremely insulting to the brave Poles who had the balls to fight against ridiculous odds.
I bet his balls are not big enough to compare to those brave fighters.
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
7 Aug 2019  #220
The Russians had no interest in helping The Poles at all.

You have it upside down. The Soviets - not the Russians - didn't need the Warsaw Uprising to win WW2. It's the Uprisers who needed the Soviets. They acted foolishly by springing the Uprising on the Soviets and paid for it dearly. Unfortunately, so did the thousands.

Hey, a-holes, I am not going to respond to personal insults. So, if this is your MO, go f*ck yourself. Now, you can complain to the mods.

the brave Poles who had the balls to fight against ridiculous odds.

Anyone who fights "against ridiculous odds" is a moron, or, at best, a mindless robot, not a hero. A hero puts only his own life at risk. A reckless idiot involves others who have nothing to gain from that idiot's heroism. Poland was about to be free, the Uprising or not. All they had to do is lay low and wait, so your choices are...

Never mind.

Fought like a lion?
Begged like a chicken?
Or ran away like a rat?

I would look at my wife and my kids when they are asleep and ask myself this question: what, on earth, is worth their lives? It would take me 5ms to answer it then and now: absolutely nothing. And, if I could, I would move them to where they would be safe and leave the killing and the dying to those who don't mind being manipulated by the suits. In Warsaw, London, or in Washington.

Patriotism, just like religion, is just a tool the suits have to f*ck with your obedient brains.
Looker - | 1,010
8 Aug 2019  #221
Here is a nice reply for the question why Poles decided to rise...

youtu.be/sV2G-W0QqpQ
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
10 Aug 2019  #222
National Disaster series continued:

This plaque commemorates the place where a German heavy explosive tank, captured by insurgents, killed about 500 people.

You can see the massacre in City 44 film

youtu.be/CriudpuCy84



Miloslaw 6 | 1,815
10 Aug 2019  #223
@pawian

Respect Pawian, we have had our differences in the past and I never saw you as a Polish Patriot.
But your recent posts prove otherwise.
My mistake, I apologise.
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
10 Aug 2019  #224
German heavy explosive tank, captured by insurgents, killed about 500 people.

So, what killed those 500, the insurgents or the Germans?
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
11 Aug 2019  #225
But your recent posts prove otherwise.

Actually, all my posts, recent and earlier, prove one thing. :)

So, what killed those 500, the insurgents or the Germans?

Isn`t it obvious? What does elementary logic suggest? E.g, what was a German explosive tank doing in Warsaw, Poland in 1944? Did Germans bring it for the EXPO exhibition to brag of their advanced technology which served the purpose of containing the harmful urban sprawl? :)

Another memorial to Wola Massacre.









Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
11 Aug 2019  #226
How about just one answer that explains what happened instead of four rhetorical questions that don't.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
11 Aug 2019  #227
There was an important barricade in the Old Town which insurgents successfully defended for many days. Germans decided to use a remote controlled heavy explosive carrier to destroy the barricade. Insurgents immobilised it and took inside their area, believing it was a small tank. Germans, seeing it, halted their attack. One insurgent lifted the cover over the explosive material and initiated a detonation.

Now, I will ask you certain simple question: what do you think, who killed up to 500 people?

These concrete plaques are scattered all over the city. They inform when and how many civilians lost their lives (mostly executed) during the Rising.









Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
11 Aug 2019  #228
Now, I will ask you certain simple question: what do you think, who killed up to 500 people?

The last one who could have prevented it - the insurgent who lifted the cover. Not intentionally, of course, but recklessly. A Polish version of the Trojan horse.

Do you know how many Americans - just as naive and careless as that insurgent - died in Vietnam because they stupidly picked up a cute plastic doll than went boom?

What did the insurgents think was in that tank? Food and medical supplies? Even then, why trust that they were not poisoned?
The difference between you and me could not be any greater. When I see the Vietnam wall in the DC, my only question is: what did we, the US, get for this horrendous loss of good men? Nothing but humiliation of defeat, 250,000 wounded, and quarter trillion bucks wasted. I am not even counting the dead Vietnamese who did nothing wrong to us.

So, I am going to ask you the same question: What did Poles get for the thousands who died during and after the Uprising? Please, do not mention pride and any other "feelings" because nobody sane would risk his life for another guy to "feel" better. At best, it's an unintended by-product.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
12 Aug 2019  #229
what did we, the US, get for this horrendous loss of good men?

The US tried to stick to the doctrine of the containment of communism. They failed in case of Vietnam but at least they tried.

What did Poles get for the thousands who died during and after the Uprising?

Directly: death, destruction, suffering., loss.

Indirectly: the knowledge of Polish ability to take impetuous irrational decisions could influence certain poilitical moves after WW2. Go back to my first post this year.

https://polishforums.com/history/warsaw-rising-national-disaster-triumph-spirit-53168/5/#msg1701511

The part of the prewar bank building has been kept as a permanent ruin..





Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
12 Aug 2019  #230
The US tried to stick to the doctrine of the containment of communism.

It boils down to the son test. How would you react to your 18-year-old son's decision to risk his life to "contain communism" 10,000 miles away while your corrupt government is not even calling it a war but a police action and fights with both hands tied behind their DC backs. The answer is either yes, no, or I don't care.

Back to Poland. "Death, destruction, suffering, loss" were 100% predictable. Some in gray suits should have been charged criminally for the decision.
To your credit, at least you didn't list liberation of Poland in the plus column.

No knowledge is worth dying for. Or sending somebody's son to die for. Like in "Hey, Janek, see that German tank? Go and take it out so we can find out how reckless and irrational decisions produce death, destruction, suffering, and loss fifty years later".
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
12 Aug 2019  #231
The answer is either yes, no, or I don't care

Hmm..... you demand mission impossible from me. I can`t say how I would feel as an American who lost his American son in the Vietnam war. I can`t imagine being myself an American, it is utter abstraction to me, sth that goes beyond me.

Some in gray suits should have been charged criminally for the decision.

Yes.

To your credit, at least you didn't list liberation of Poland in the plus column.

I couldn`t do it because in military terms, the Rising was insignificant for overall strategic results.

No knowledge is worth dying for.

Who knows?

Past intertwines with present in Warsaw.

During the Rising, an insurgent hospital where Germans murdered civilians and wounded soldiers a few days before the end. Today, a school and kids have fun in the playing ground.





Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
12 Aug 2019  #232
To an outsider like me, the ultimate irony are the emotions expressed here at this forum toward Germany vs Russia. The friendliness to the former who brought death to Poland and the hostility to the latter who, at great sacrifice, made it free just does not compute.

I am almost done with the subject of the Warsaw Uprising. The reason I decided to say my piece is that I was directly involved in it as a two-year-old kid. I don't know if at some point Germans tried to use me as a shield. Maybe they did and, as is my habit, I gave them a mouthful, so they gave up and left me with my present nasty personality. I don't know.

To their credit, and probably contrary to the bleeding touchy feely softies, the AK fighters didn't stop shooting just because there was a child in the window. Like paying ransom. You get more of it if you do. That was a good decision which convinced Germans that using kids as shields was useless.

Finally, to my credit, notice that I didn't say NAZI's.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
12 Aug 2019  #233
if at some point Germans tried to use me as a shield.

You were lucky. You could have died like a certain baby who slipped out of her mum`s arms and fell under the moving track because they were sitting on a tank, used a human shields. When she saw what happened, she started screaming like crazy so a German officer shot her because he couldn`t bear such noise.

The friendliness to the former who brought death to Poland and hostility to latter who, at great sacrifice, made it free just does not compute.

Do not repeat those Kremlin stories, please, cause you discredit yourself. Also, you might raise justified suspicions of acting as a troll in this thread. The topic has been discussed in another thread. :):)

https://polishforums.com/history/poland-people-hate-germans-russians-19290/

I am almost done with the subject of the Warsaw Uprising.

Me too, for this year. I just need to present photos of two more sites and I am done.
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
12 Aug 2019  #234
OK. At the end of the day, as they say, I appreciate your proactive contribution here - even when we disagree. No, I didn't mean to be patronizing.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
12 Aug 2019  #235
Me too, for this year. I just need to present photos of two more sites and I am done.

This one was the most moving of all memorials in Warsaw. I often recall it when I remember my trips to the city. . In this place Germans executed 119 insurgents who mistakenly exited the sewer in the area occupied by the enemy. The insurgents were executed athough earlier the capitulation of Mokotów District had been signed and Germans had agreed to respect its rules. But they didn`t.

The plaque reads: To 119 insurgents from Mokotów District who were murderd by Nazis after the capitulation 27.09.1944. From regiment Tower`s brothers-of-arms.

Do you see that old lady in the wheelchair? She was staying there, looking at the monument. She could be around 80. In 2008, the Rising was 64 years before. She was probably 20 years old then. Whom did she lose at that site? A father, brother or a boyfriend? What did she think of the Rising? Didn`t she regret that it broke out?

I wanted to ask her those questions, but she was so occupied in thoughts that I didn`t dare. So, after I took photos, we were standing there together in silence, looking at the monument.









Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
12 Aug 2019  #236
To 119 insurgents from Mokotów District who were murderd by Nazis after the capitulation 27.09.1944.

I so wish Poles and others would stop using the termNazis in lieu of Germans. Huge difference.
I am really curios why it is happening.
Lyzko 20 | 6,342
12 Aug 2019  #237
Agreed. Not all Germans were Nazis.
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
13 Aug 2019  #238
Why do you think so many say Nazis rather thanGermans?

Also, Hitlerowcy is not accurate. Hitlerowcy were the followers. If the 42 attempts on his life were any indication, many Germans would kill the sob with their own bare hands but couldn't.

Drafted and facing swift execution for disobedience, lumping all Germans into Hitlerowcy smells like internal Polish politics and to sound angry while, at the same time, nice to the contemporary Germans. It wasn't you; it was those bad Nazis.

My best guess without proof is that both Nazis and Hitlerowce are the new politically correct Euro terms to minimize Germany's responsibility because Germany is now a friend. Nazis appears to absolve a large segment who didn't belong to the party. Cheering crowds who didn't have to are now off the hook as naive dupes. Sure,

I noticed the same is done in the UK and, more specifically, in the BBC war TV productions. It's always Nazis, not Germans.
Ironside 47 | 9,624
13 Aug 2019  #239
Not all Germans were Nazis.

But all Nazis were Germans.

If the 42 attempts on his life were any indication, many Germans would kill the sob with their own bare hands but couldn't.

How a pathetic excuse for a an oxygen breathing creature like you can be so shameless as to flout this forum with it ignorance and idiotic guesses? Is that a trolling tactic you learned while attending a higher school of cooking on a gas.
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
13 Aug 2019  #240
You are too brilliant for me....


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