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Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?


Miloslaw 6 | 2,317
3 Aug 2019  #181
Now, you are getting personal. Don't

I don't mean to get personal Rich, but you are annoying me now.
The Poles at that time did not really know what was happening.
You can't use hindsight to justify your logic.
They had three simple choices.
Join the Germans, join The Russians or fight.
Doing nothing was not an option.
Given what they did not know, what would you have done?
OP pawian 161 | 9,938
3 Aug 2019  #182
Special plaques commemorate places where insurgents and civilians erected and defended barricades.

E..g, there was a barricade in that passage in the Old Town.




  • Plaque
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,588
3 Aug 2019  #183
Doing nothing was not an option.

What did they do in Prague?

Quoting:

The city of Prague was ultimately liberated by the USSR during the Prague Offensive. All of the German troops of Army Group Centre (Heeresgruppe Mitte) and many of Army Group Ostmark (formerly known as Army Group South) were killed or captured, or fell into the hands of the Allies after the capitulation.

Duh!

In fact:

Adding to the confusion in Prague but providing useful assistance to the Czechs, the 1st Division of the Russian Liberation Army under General Bunyachenko moved

Can you imagine that? The Russians were assisting the Czech uprising in ....killing Germans!
OP pawian 161 | 9,938
3 Aug 2019  #184
This high rise building (the highest in pre war Warsaw) called Prudential is a monument on its own. Germans shelled it with heaviest artillery (insurgents put a Polish flag on top of it) but it survived. Like Warsaw.

The Prudential was heavily damaged during World War II, particularly during the Warsaw Uprising when it was hit by approximately 1,000 artillery shells, including a single hit by 2-tonne Karl-Gerät mortar shell, leaving only the steel framework. The artillery damage bent the construction sideways, but it survived the war and was featured on numerous anti-war posters.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudential,_Warsaw







Rich Mazur 4 | 3,588
3 Aug 2019  #185
If you call it survival, what does death look like?
mafketis 20 | 7,327
4 Aug 2019  #186
you are annoying me now.

that's his whole agenda... he writes crap to push people's buttons as an end in and of itself, resist the temptation to respond that bothers him far more than anything negative you could write
OP pawian 161 | 9,938
4 Aug 2019  #187
If you call it survival, what does death look like?

Definitely, death is much uglier. But, even as a non-believer, you surely know that after death there is resurrection.

See the death and resurrection of the Royal Castle in Warsaw. Only a few small parts of the walls remained after Germans had blown it up in 1944. I don`t want to suggest anything but isn`t it a Triumph of Spirit?









Rich Mazur 4 | 3,588
4 Aug 2019  #188
that's his whole agenda... he writes crap to push people's buttons

I understand that a post that is hard to argue with is "crap". I got it. But, since I don't post worn out one-liners, there is enough real meat on those bones for you and others here to pick on and prove me wrong on facts or unreasonable in my opinions.

Somehow, that is not happening because you can't. How about responding to #183 above. It's not very long and has quotes. It was better to leave it alone. Right?

Posting about "buttons" is a lot more stimulating, I guess.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,669
4 Aug 2019  #189
Did you know that Kaczyński twins` father fought in Warsaw Rising as Baszta soldier?

Interesting. How did he manage to restart his studies and succeed in his career after the war, I wonder?
OP pawian 161 | 9,938
4 Aug 2019  #190
Allied airmen who lost their lives trying to bring aid to fighting Warsaw are also honoured. Poland is full of those monuments, Warsaw has only one, I guess.







Rich Mazur 4 | 3,588
4 Aug 2019  #191
All of those being totally avoidable, too.
Isn't it ironic how another guy's death 75 years ago is so uplifting and heroic - almost glamorous - to those who today are at zero risk, holding a bottle of Zywiec. But, just suggest that the Zywiec guy should have a gun to defend himself or his family and you get a list of invectives aimed at the lunatic far-right in the lunatic USA. Sure, Zywiec heroes.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,669
4 Aug 2019  #192
Allied airmen who lost their lives trying to bring aid to fighting Warsaw are also honoured.

I find their contribution to be heavily diminished in today's Poland, to be honest. It tends to get drowned out by the hyenas screaming about Yalta and the alleged lack of promised assistance during the September Campaign.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,588
4 Aug 2019  #193
Poland should be retroactively grateful for not getting that "promised assistance". Its only effect would be to prolong the shooting, bombing and killing.
Are you suggesting that it would make the Germans go back? Are Poles really that naive?
That war had only four participants that mattered to the final outcome. Poland was not one of them.
Ironside 48 | 9,792
4 Aug 2019  #194
I find their contribution to be heavily diminished in today's Poland, to be honest.

They contribution was negligible, too late, too little and lasted only for a short while. Airmen were doing their job. It was their government fault for not settling that issue properly with Soviets.
Miloslaw 6 | 2,317
4 Aug 2019  #195
Somehow, that is not happening because you can't

Not true Rich.
We have told you how it was and yet you continue to ignore it using hindsight as an excuse for your logic.
It just doesn't work.
OP pawian 161 | 9,938
4 Aug 2019  #196
The monuments are scattered all over Warsaw in quite unexpected places. E.g. you can come across some in city parks.

This first monument marks the place which insurgents defended from `17.08- 22.09







Rich Mazur 4 | 3,588
4 Aug 2019  #197
you continue to ignore it using hindsight as an excuse for your logic.

My posts have nothing to do with hindsight. Your posts, as well as others', ignore what the uprising participants and the suits in London had as information and based on it, a realistic assessment of likely outcomes. It's called analysis and planning - the mortal enemies of "patriots".

Let's go to the chase and, instead of talking about me, answer these very simple questions before we go any further:

1. What was the PRIMARY objective of the Warsaw Uprising according to the Polish suits in London?
2. Did the Polish side coordinate the Uprising timing and locations with the Soviet army?
OP pawian 161 | 9,938
4 Aug 2019  #198
Some memorials are unusual. E..g, a part of the track of Goliath remote control demolition tankette which made a hole in the wall of the Old Town Cathedral 4, is immured in the repaired wall.





Rich Mazur 4 | 3,588
6 Aug 2019  #199
So, what was the PRIMARY objective of the Warsaw Uprising?
OP pawian 161 | 9,938
6 Aug 2019  #200
It is funny you are asking such questions like an American junior high school student who has just learnt that Poles made a Rising in Warsaw one day and they weren`t Jewishit wasn`t Ghetto Rising. Wow, really?? What were you doing during those 23 years when you still lived in Poland till mid 1960s and as you claim, you studied at the Politechnic College in Warsaw. Didn`t you talk to family or mates about those topics?

It is really surprising.

Never mind. The primary aim of the Rising was to throw Germans out of the city. What for? To liberate the capital of Poland. What for? Firstly, to avoid the Soviet destructive siege because Germans had planned to turn Warsaw into a fortress and to put up a stubborn resistance. Secondly, in liberated capital the Soviets would have to talk with the representatives of the Polish government. Poles b-e-l-i-e-v-e-d :):) that, backed by allies, they were able to negotiate a good deal with Soviets concerning Eastern territories.
Lyzko 23 | 6,631
6 Aug 2019  #201
The "primary", if not the sole, objective of the Warsaw Uprising, was naturally to kick Hitler's buttuski to Kingdom come!
They nearly succeeded. Oh, there were some malingerers in the ranks, I'm sure, but on the whole, the Poles (both Jew
and gentile) stuck to their guns, literally, and fought with their last ounce of blood.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,588
6 Aug 2019  #202
The "primary", if not the sole, objective of the Warsaw Uprising, was naturally to kick Hitler's buttuski to Kingdom come!

An objective, but not the primary or, better yet, the ultimate. The war was winding down and there was ZERO doubt that Germany would lose and that the Soviet army would be victorious and in control of Poland.

Your reply would suggest that without the Warsaw Uprising the outcome would have been different, which is nonsense.

To liberate the capital of Poland.

That's the means. You might just as well say that the objective was to kill Germans. The real and the ultimate objectives - not the steps leading to it - were discussed in London. They discussed the possible outcomes, too. Are there any documents that explain why the Uprising was ordered and was worth the risks with the war outcome already known. How many Polish lives lost could be justified to make the war end sooner?

So, my question still stands. Knowing that the war will be won by the Soviets and the US anyway and soon, what was the purpose of the Uprising?

If you decide to reply, spare me personal comments and the sophomoric crap like "to kick Hitler's buttuski to Kingdom come".
OP pawian 161 | 9,938
6 Aug 2019  #203
So, my question still stands.

Sorry, there will be no other answers. I have said everything and don`t expect any deeply hidden truths apart from this one we already discussed - those commanders of Warsaw AK who insisted on military solutions were insane megalomaniacs who perfectly realised the cost of the Rising and its terrible outcome to the city and its inhabitants, yet they ignored it as they wanted to "shatter the public opinion" with Polish sacrifice. There were also reasonable guys who hesitated. But finally hawks dominated pidgeons and the Rising broke out.

So far most of the photos I showed symbolised the Triumph of Spirit.

Let`s see National Disaster.

A memorial to hundreds of executed residents of Mokotów district.



Rich Mazur 4 | 3,588
6 Aug 2019  #204
I will take your last post for what it says, not sarcasm, and conclude that you and other Poles act the same way as the American parents do when they get a flag and the coffin.

To stay sane, they have to justify the bullsh*t their son died for in Iraq or Afghanistan and tell everybody how "he died for our freedom". You, Poles, know that the Uprising was just that - a bullsh*t and a colossal waste of human life, Germans included. Yes, they were people, too, and counting days to be back home with their families. And that, as in the past, the suits in London were playing the same sick game of being hostile to Germany and the USSR at the same time, as in 1939.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the military analysts concluded at some point that the Uprising actually slowed down the Soviets and, thus, prolonged the war.
Miloslaw 6 | 2,317
6 Aug 2019  #205
It actually protected Germany, ironically, because it gave The Allies more time to grab a larger part of Germany before The Russians could get there.

Otherwise there might never have been a West Germany.
And The Warsaw Pact might have bordered France.......and The Berlin Wall would instead have been the new Maginot Line......
Lyzko 23 | 6,631
6 Aug 2019  #206
I think your point is academic, Rich. If not the liberation of Poland, what else then?
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,588
6 Aug 2019  #207
It's not academic. My question is pertinent since the liberation of Poland from the Germans was already 100% assured without the Uprising. My question was as valid as asking why someone would say in the morning: Sun! Please rise! And then claiming that saying it helped Sun rise. It didn't and neither did the Uprising affect the ultimate outcome of WW2 - a defeated Germany.

Milo's post would make sense if the Uprising's objective was to obstruct the Soviet army. In fact, it would be a very good plan if it were the plan, not just a post-fact realization. But, then, nobody should blame the Soviets for not liking it.

On the other hand, the post-war Europe was already allocated to the four powers, so, this argument falls apart. What's left is that AK was supposed to be a poison pill for the USSR to prevent them from installing their version of Polish government. Which, as I wrote before, made the Uprising a purely political move and impossible to justify without wrapping it in the Civics 101 heroics at the street level and never mind the suits in London.
Lyzko 23 | 6,631
7 Aug 2019  #208
"....since the liberation of Poland from the Germans was already almost a fait accompli....."

Really, Rich? Seems you're privy to certain primary source documents over which the rest of us mere mortals can merely salivate:-) Do tell, old boy!
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,588
7 Aug 2019  #209
"....since the liberation of Poland from the Germans was already almost a fait accompli....."

If you want to quote, quote. Paraphrasing is not quoting.
I wrote:

the liberation of Poland from the Germans was already 100% assured without the Uprising.

If you want to offer a different opinion, do it, instead of that sarcastic "really" question.

Your amazement at my claim should be followed by yours. Like this:

There was a reasonable probability that the Soviets army would run into such German resistance in Poland that they - the Soviets - would never be able to go all the way to Berlin.

Is this what you are claiming?

There is no other claim you can make IF you want to challenge mine. Which, of course, would be laughable. I mean that the Soviets would be defeated in the battle for Poland, and that Germany, being on its last legs, would be victorious and capable of continued occupation of Poland.

Your post is a classic example of what happens when the poster reacts irrationally and emotionally without thinking things through and resorts to that standard deflection of "Really?" Yes, really. The war was already in the bag. The reason it continued was an unreasonable idiot at the top and the unreasonably obedient idiots at the bottom.
Lyzko 23 | 6,631
7 Aug 2019  #210
Don't forget though that the Soviets hated the Nazis about as much as the Poles, not to mention the Jews!
It was therefore to the Russians' best self interest that Hitler should be defeated, sooner instead of later:-)


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