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Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?


OP pawian 157 | 9,121
13 Aug 2019  #241
My guess without proof is both Nazis and Hitlerowce are new politically correct Euro terms to minimize Germany's responsibility because Germany is now a friend

No, it isn`t new. It originated when Poland was in the communist block together with East Germany which was an ally then. Hitlerowcy was the most popular term during communist times and it is still used today, although after cases of whitening their past by Germans, Poles are replacing it with the proper name - Germans. The monument was erected in communist times - 1984, hence hilerowcy on it.

The execution story
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egzekucja_przy_ulicy_Dworkowej

The monument
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomnik_%C5%BCo%C5%82nierzy_%E2%80%9EBaszty%E2%80%9D_w_Warszawie

How pathetic excuse for oxygen breathing creature like you can be so shameless as to flout this forum with it ignorance and idiotic guesses?

Instead of abusing people, especially when you litter this forum with idiotic trash yourself practically in every post, you could offer the explanation as I did above. Why didn`t you do it, Mr Expat-who-knows-nothing-about-Poland, yet persists to play an expert on Polish things?
Miloslaw 6 | 1,815
13 Aug 2019  #242
It's always Nazis, not Germans.

Agreed, I always say Germans, never Nazis.
kondzior 8 | 945
13 Aug 2019  #243
And Nazis have been the Aliens form the dark side of the Moon?
Miloslaw 6 | 1,815
13 Aug 2019  #244
Many German soldiers were not Nazis.
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
13 Aug 2019  #245
And Nazis have been the Aliens form the dark side of the Moon?

No.
It was the US or "America" who dropped two nukes, not the Democrats. Hence, we say: When the Americans dropped...not when the Democrats dropped...

Germany and the German army should be treated similarly, and their war crimes and criminals separately. Even the SS, since not everyone who was in the SS was a war criminal.

Really simple when one thinks.

....you could offer the explanation as I did above. Thanks. I sensed that there has to be a reason for it.
Lyzko 20 | 6,342
13 Aug 2019  #246
Factually incorrect, Ironside!

Hitler recruited from numerous neighboring countries whose racial lineage he deemed suitable for his Master Race, among others, Holland, Lithuania, Latvia, Norway, Estonia, even Finland, not to mention little Croatia.
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
13 Aug 2019  #247
Did they belong to the Nazi party?
Nazi by definition: a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
If they didn't, Iron may actually be correct.
Lyzko 20 | 6,342
13 Aug 2019  #248
They became, so to speak, "honorary" Nazis then:-)
To be sure, all were forced to swear the oath of allegiance to Hitler (Eidgeloebnis), making them, yes in effect, "Nazis"!
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
13 Aug 2019  #249
Your post has too many hedges. From "so to speak" to "in effect". In my world where precision and dispassionate thinking is highly valued, they either were card-carrying members of the Nazi party or they were not. Like being married or pregnant. You are or you are not, with no shades of gray to make weaseling out later more convenient.

And that "forced to swear"....If you are forced to swear, you are not swearing. You are mumbling words that carry zero moral or legal weight.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,372
13 Aug 2019  #250
There were a few Irish, British, Scottish, and Polish Nazis - mostly gorale.. But there were a lot of Ukrainians, Russians namely Don Cossacks, Indians, Iraqis, etc.

For a long time there was actually an SS/Nazi lobby group in Germany

Man I wish I was born back then = (
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
13 Aug 2019  #251
The previous series of photos concerned National Disaster. The last two are about Triumph of Spirit.

Read the fascinating story about Prince Poniatowski monument in Warsaw. Seldom do monuments undergo so many adventures as that one did.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_Prince_J%C3%B3zef_Poniatowski_in_Warsaw


  • Before the war

  • During the war

  • After the Rising

  • Today
Lyzko 20 | 6,342
13 Aug 2019  #252
We do too, Dirk! Maybe you'd have passed already and your toxic spirit along with you.

@Rich, those recruited, such as the Belgian Brigades of Nazi sympathizers did in fact have to swear a loyalty oath as well....upon pain of death.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
14 Aug 2019  #253
To be sure, all were forced to swear the oath of allegiance to Hitler (Eidgeloebnis), making them, yes in effect, "Nazis"!

All are correct in a way.

After '33 the NSDAP imposed an admission freeze for new members, to avoid all these opportunists who now came running.

At that point the party had about 849.009 members. Of course even after the freeze people seen as especially useful were "rewarded" with a membership.
But membership was in no way compulsory like in communist countries. (Quite the contrary, the lower your membership-number the higher would be your reputation, because that meant you had been an early member as it was still difficult, during the struggles, before the rise to power).

Till 1943 about 11% of the Germans were members....actually really NAZIS as in active members of the NSDAP. Meaning 89% were not.

But swearing allegiance to Hitler (not the party or the country) with Hitler being the party leader meant in real life actually the same...
TheOther 5 | 3,643
14 Aug 2019  #254
since not everyone who was in the SS was a war criminal.

Did you know that every new postal worker under the age of 35 was automatically a member of the SS? New employees had to join the so-called Postschutz, which was part of the SS organization.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postschutz
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
14 Aug 2019  #255
"Allgemeine SS"...as in Home Security....honorary...

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allgemeine_SS

To avoid misunderstandings! :)
TheOther 5 | 3,643
14 Aug 2019  #256
Only until the end of April 1942. After that the SS-Postschutz was part of the Waffen-SS.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
14 Aug 2019  #257
.....most ended up in the Wehrmacht though.
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
14 Aug 2019  #258
Did you know that every new postal worker under the age of 35 was automatically a member of the SS?

You just made the SS look a lot better.
TheOther 5 | 3,643
14 Aug 2019  #259
Well, most people think "Holocaust" when they hear "SS". It's a bit more complicated than that.
Lyzko 20 | 6,342
14 Aug 2019  #260
Yes, that's right. Without local collaboration, even the most ardent SS-Personnel could probably not have
effected what they did in as short a period of time as they did!
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
14 Aug 2019  #261
The last photo this year - I must say it is one of the most important to me. Modest, but so inspiring.

It`s a small plaque on the defence wall of the Old Town.

Warsaw Rising 1944, the Battle for the Old Town, here, on bulwark barricades along Podwale, Ĺšlepa and Piwna Streets, batallion Gustaw soldiers fought till the end, blocked the strategic route, repelled all German attacks, covered the sewer evacuation of insurgent troops to Downtown district.

Example of Triumph of Spirit to follow?

More pics of Gustaw insurgents here:
info-pc.home.pl/whatfor/baza/gustaw_galeria.htm









Dirk diggler 9 | 4,372
14 Aug 2019  #263
even the most ardent SS-Personnel could probably not have effected what they did in as short a period of time as they did!

The nazi government namely himmler had the ss recruit locals in order to help identify, kill and bury Jews. The mental toll was too much for SS so they had locals carry out massacres especially in the Baltic states. This was when they were still shooting most of the Jews instead of sending them to camps.

Well, most people think "Holocaust" when they hear "SS". It's a bit more complicated than that.

I think of awesome hugo boss uniforms.

We do too, Dirk! Maybe you'd have passed already and your toxic spirit along with you.

There's still SS veterans alive. And they're as unapologetic and defiant as ever.
Lyzko 20 | 6,342
14 Aug 2019  #264
Sadly.
As the Germans themselves often say, "Unkraut vergeht nicht!" = You can't get rid of weeds!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
15 Aug 2019  #265
There's still SS veterans alive. And they're as unapologetic and defiant as ever.

Are they?

I met my last one about 10 years back..on a WWII forum...he claimed to have been an SS security detail at the Wolfsschanze...now living out his days in Florida though. I wonder if he's still kicking it..
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,372
15 Aug 2019  #266
I wonder if he's still kicking it..

Well, the few that are alive are going to be in their 80s 90s+. That's also why the American jews are kvetching so hard about Poland to get their property gibs since actual survivors are dwindling by the day.

Are they?

According to a few interviews with veterans, yes.
jon357 63 | 14,120
15 Aug 2019  #267
Warsaw Rising 1944, the Battle for the Old Town,

I knew someone who was part of that. He was a teen when it happened. Sadly he died (in his 70s) about 15 years ago. A very distinguished man. He was a Righteous Among the Nations, a newspaper editor back in the 70s, the founder of a major charity and part of KOR.


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