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Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?


4 eigner 2 | 831
27 Aug 2012  #121
No you didn't.Anyway,I will repeat,in April/May 1943 the Germans were preparing offensive in the Ukraine and the outcome of war wasn't decided yet while in Jun/July 1944 the Germans were in full scale retreat.Kind of difference I would say.

Yes I did, you just don't accept my explanation.
All these facts are well known but still, realistically you guys couldn't or shouldn't count on their help. They hated (probably still do) you and you hated them. I know, I wouldn't expect any help from them if I were you.

Polish citizens,ok but it doesn't mean Poles.

Why not? If they're born in Poland (and are Polish citizens) they're Poles, right?
sofijufka 2 | 191
27 Aug 2012  #122
grubas: What would be the point?What you are saying is pretty ignorant and/or dumb.Oh really? Why is it dumb? Because they were Jews (Polish citizens though) or because both Uprisings didn't make any sense since it was clear that there was no realistic chance for success?

No, because in '43 AK have almost no weapons then!
From '43 to 44' they were producing machine gun Sten, hand granades {filipinka, sidolówka}, Molotov cocktails, flamethrowers, granade launchers, mortars, explosives, even buying weapons from german soldiers, whose morale was much lower then....

ubas: The point was to free Warsaw.so if you did it together in 1943, it wouldn't be the same in your eyes? They were also Poles (Polish Jews). As I said, the chances were the same.

no, it wasn't
4 eigner 2 | 831
27 Aug 2012  #123
no, it wasn't

yes, the chances were, realistically seeing it, the same, basically none.

btw. the first comment, you replied to, wasn't from me (doesn't really matter).
Frantisek 1 | 20
29 Aug 2012  #124
Polish spirit is on display in Warsaw Uprising very well. Poles can die but don`t stop dream about liberty. They don`t want be slaves, never.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
30 Aug 2012  #125
What was the point of the Warsaw Uprising in 1944? (same point)

May I suggest you read the deposition of General Bear Cub (Leopold Okulicki) to the NKVD after his capture? It sets out the reasons, in his eyes (and he was a senior commander) for the Rising. It should be available online or is transcribed in Rising 44 by Norman Davies, another 'must read' on the Rising in my opinion.
4 eigner 2 | 831
30 Aug 2012  #126
It wasn't really a question (talking about my reply in form of a question), rather an answer to his comment.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
30 Aug 2012  #127
Sorry, I thought it was. Are you familiar with General Bear Cub and his deposition? His is a tragic story, and one of many similar stories of the heroes of the Rising (like Kontrym, Nil, Pilecki) who faced judicial murder at the hands of the Soviets.

My dad went through the Rising as a small child and told me many things about his experiences. They are all tragic and gut wrenching, except for the story of the Polish/Jewish doctor who was saved by the Wehrmacht from the SS because he saved the life of a Wehrmacht Officer.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
30 Aug 2012  #128
In 1943, The General Uprising of Jews and Poles had no chance of winning for one simple reason: the Eastern front (read: with Soviets who were our "allies" against Nazis) was still 1000 kilometeres away and Germans were fighting hard there.

In 1944 the chances were much bigger because the allied Soviets controlled the right bank of the Wisła river in Warsaw. If Stalin had given an order, the Rising would have been saved.

Today`s reenactments of Warsaw Rising:




4 eigner 2 | 831
25 Sep 2012  #129
In 1943, The General Uprising of Jews and Poles had no chance of winning for one simple reason: the Eastern front (read: with Soviets who were our "allies" against Nazis) was still 1000 kilometeres away and Germans were fighting hard there.

Either way, it was hopeless. Logically thinking, you couldn't expect any help from the Soviets anyway (already explained it earlier in this thread).
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
25 Sep 2012  #130
Yes, but technically, the help was possible in 1944, while in 1943 - no.
4 eigner 2 | 831
25 Sep 2012  #131
Technically maybe but still an illusion due to Stalin's hatred toward Poland.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
25 Sep 2012  #132
In 1943, The General Uprising of Jews and Pole

It was the desperate Uprising from the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. Where do you get the notion of any non-Jewish Poles involved?
Your notion of "General Uprising of Jews and Poles" denies the basic facts.
They refused the Jewish resistance fighters any support. Sold them weapons only for hard cash. Declined them any worthwhile aid.
Btw Why do General Anders' comments about the 1944 Uprising get so few reflections in this country?
4 eigner 2 | 831
25 Sep 2012  #133
OK, I have to admit that this confirms what I know about it too.

I hope, we'll be able to discuss constructively without any name calling.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
25 Sep 2012  #134
Btw Why do General Anders' comments about the 1944 Uprising get so few reflections in this country?

I think it's because of communism - if it wasn't for that, I suspect that it would be seen differently.

The whole way that the Uprising came about was remarkably underhanded and devious too.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
25 Sep 2012  #135
Your notion of "General Uprising of Jews and Poles" denies the basic facts.

My notion?????

Don`t be silly and read all posts that were posted earlier.

so if you did it together in 1943, it wouldn't be the same in your eyes? They were also Poles (Polish Jews). As I said, the chances were the same.

It was the desperate Uprising from the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto.

I hope, we'll be able to discuss constructively without any name calling.

Sorry, guys, if you want to discuss it, open a new thread about Warsaw Ghetto Rising 1943. I have nothing against and will gladly join you there,

But this thread is about Warsaw Rising 1944.

Don`t even try or you risk losing your posts in the bin. :):):):):):):)
4 eigner 2 | 831
25 Sep 2012  #136
Sorry, guys, if you want to discuss it, open a new thread about Warsaw Ghetto Rising 1943.

it kinda connects though when we're discussing about whether or not any of them had a chance of success.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
25 Sep 2012  #137
it kinda connects

Read how Jews from the Nazi camp in Warsaw were saved by insurgents in 1944. Some of them joined Polish units and fought like mad.

After the first shots demolished the towers near the main entrance, foot soldiers entered into action. Within minutes small groups of Germans started to escape from the towers and to retreat to the administration building and further out beyond the wall of the compound in the direction of Pawiak. Platoon 'Felek' quickly flushed the remaining Germans out of the various areas of the camp. In the administration building they saw a most unusual scene. In the main hall there was a long table covered with a white tablecloth, a tureen filled with still warm soup, bottles of liquor and untouched plates. Only the turned over chairs testified to the hasty retreat of the Germans as an antique grandfather clock in the corner chimed eleven o'clock. The whole action took just 30 minutes of intense fighting. The fleeing black clad SS men were under Polish fire still some distance from the compound.

Poland
4 eigner 2 | 831
25 Sep 2012  #138
Read how Jews from the Nazi camp in Warsaw were saved by insurgents in 1944. Some of them joined Polish units and fought like mad.

OK, I've heard about that too. It's a little bit of both, some helped and some haven't, as always.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
25 Sep 2012  #139
It's a little bit of both, some helped and some haven't, as always.

Yeap. Life.

polish-heroes.org/descargas/Gesiowka-Story.pdf

Reenactment films from recent years:

youtu.be/U3fP1kXqpFo

youtu.be/5jn6u6ruBik

youtu.be/BjTW6jZvs5A

youtu.be/KoOGx2Vt6DE

A clever animation of Warsaw Rising with Lego blocks:

youtu.be/51aR9VFgnyU

Each year President of Warsaw invites residents to celebrate the anniversary of the Rising and they bring out such commercials:

The Warsaw uprising. It is your history! Remember it!

youtu.be/a_XoWThOIDI

youtu.be/sYO-I8_lVRE

youtu.be/SbYzHIHYvr8

youtu.be/R_R-6lt7iqs
ShawnH 8 | 1,497
1 Aug 2013  #140
So the Associated Press published the following blurb regarding the anniversary of the Warsaw Rising:

WARSAW, Poland -- Poland is holding its annual homage to the thousands of people who died while trying to liberate Warsaw from Germany's Nazi forces during World War II, and this year some observances will be shown live on Facebook for the first time.
On Thursday, the Warsaw Rising Museum will show on its Facebook page people stopping in Warsaw's streets at 1500 GMT (11 a.m. EDT), the hour in 1944 when thousands of residents began trying to free Warsaw from the Germans, as the Soviet Red Army advanced on the city.
The poorly armed fighters of the clandestine Home Army fought for 63 days. Some 200,000 residents and fighters were killed, and the Germans razed the city. Later, when Poland was under communist control, recognizing that historic event was forbidden.

I found the wording quite interesting: thousands of residents began trying to free Warsaw from the Germans, as the Soviet Red Army advanced on the city.

Technically it is correct that the Soviets were advancing. Why do you think the AP would conveniently omit the fact that once the fireworks started, the Advancing Soviets decided to check up on the other side of the river?
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
1 Aug 2013  #141
So the Associated Press published the following blurb regarding the anniversary of the Warsaw Rising:

Oh, dear Shawn, thank you so much for remembering. We have just come back from the seaside and on the way I had been wondering if anybody had mentioned the anniversary. You saved the PF`s reputation in a way. Not only silliness prevails here, after all! :):)

On Thursday, the Warsaw Rising Museum will show on its Facebook page people stopping in Warsaw's streets

As usual, the tradition is continued:
see how young Warsawians, probably football fans, stop the traffic:

youtu.be/X253qMpkalc

at 1500 GMT

Did they really write so? Not 17.00?

Technically it is correct that the Soviets were advancing. Why do you think the AP would conveniently omit the fact that once the fireworks started, the Advancing Soviets decided to check up on the other side of the river?

Do you think it has some deeper meaning?

people stopping in Warsaw's streets

youtu.be/XEVzLbdxaD0

They have coloured archive films and combined into a long documentary going to release it next year

s

s

s

I wonder: what happened to them? Did they survive or got killed? If they did, how? In combat? Or of wounds in insurgent hospital? Or in an execution with other captured POW insurgents?

Poland lost so many patriotic young people in 1944.... Those who survived insist there was no choice.....

Football fans celebrated the anniversary last year:

s
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
2 Aug 2013  #142
Poland is a land of many unknown heroes.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
3 Aug 2013  #143
Today, Wola district in Warsaw celebrated the victims of Wola Massacre of 1944 when rabid Germans executed about 50 thousand civilians within a week.

Commemorated the inhabitants of the capital killed in the uprising Will in Poland

The Wola massacre (Polish: Rzeź Woli, "Wola slaughter") was the systematic killing of around 40,000-50,000 people by Nazi German troops during the Warsaw Uprising in 1944. Between 5-12 August 1944, tens of thousands of Polish civilians along with captured resistance fighters were indiscriminately shot or killed in organised mass executions throughout the Wola district of the Polish capital Warsaw. The action was designed to crush the Poles' will to fight and put the uprising to an end without having to commit to heavy city fighting.[1] However the Germans soon found that the atrocities in Wola only stiffened Polish resistance. German authority across the city was only achieved after more than two months of heavy fighting and the total destruction of Warsaw.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wola_massacre

Wola Massacre victims in Poland
Harry
6 Aug 2013  #144
"at 1500 GMT

Did they really write so? Not 17.00?"
They wrote the correct time.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
6 Aug 2013  #145
Aaah, you mean 15 GMT is actually 17 in Warsaw....
Harry
7 Aug 2013  #146
It is during the summer time (during winter Warsaw is only one hour ahead of GMT).
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
15 Aug 2013  #147
Yesterday they celebrated the massacre of 300 people by " tank bomb".

Today, the anniversary of the massacre is celebrated as the Old Town Day.

A few Poles who took part in the Rising when young and survived became famous in communist Poland.

Zdzisław Maklakiewicz, actor, joined the Rising when 17. He played great roles after the war:

youtu.be/h7o8HzrgIMw
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
1 Aug 2019  #148
Today, another anniversary of Warsaw Rising.
My opinion hasn`t changed for years, what I wrote on page 1 is still valid.

I looked through the thread and there is nothing about far-reaching consequences of the Rising. I have heard those opinions a few times in my life. They are hard to prove but there might be a grain of truth after all.

In 1944 Poles proved that fighting for freedom, they were ready to sacrifice tens of thousands lives and the city, too. Didn`t Soviets remember about it when they occupied Poland after the war? Surely they did. There were two aborted Soviet interventions in Polish postwar history - in 1956 and 1980. We talked about it in other threads. Soviets were ready to intervene and the tank engines were warming up, yet, the order to halt the action came in the last moment.

Did Soviets hesitate and give up because they remembered Warsw Rising? It is not so unimaginable.

Read about Soviet planned interventions in Poland
1956
jstor.org/stable/20451318?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

1980
wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/ACFB35.PDF

An interesting quote from the Polish communist leader at the time - he told the Soviets in 1980:

At what may have been his finest hour, Kania did all he could to convince the Soviet chief that "if there were an intervention there would be a national uprising. Even if angels entered Poland," Kania predicted, "they would be treated as bloodthirsty vampires and the socialist ideas would be swimming in blood."

If the invasion had taken place, and the Soviets had installed their direct military rule in Poland in 1980, the collapse of communism would be delayed for many years. Fortunately, it fell in 1989.

In this way, if we assume that Warsaw Rising influenced the thinking of Poland`s enemies and made them resign from taking drastic action with possible tragic consequences, it might be considered a Triumph of Spirit.
Torq 26 | 2,363
1 Aug 2019  #149
Well said, Pawian.

Pamiętamy

Cześć i chwała bohaterom!
Lyzko 20 | 6,342
1 Aug 2019  #150
The latter I would think, a no brainer!


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