Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?

Yes I did, you just don't accept my explanation.
All these facts are well known but still, realistically you guys couldn't or shouldn't count on their help. They hated (probably still do) you and you hated them. I know, I wouldn't expect any help from them if I were you.


Why not? If they're born in Poland (and are Polish citizens) they're Poles, right?

No, because in '43 AK have almost no weapons then!
From '43 to 44' they were producing machine gun Sten, hand granades {filipinka, sidolówka}, Molotov cocktails, flamethrowers, granade launchers, mortars, explosives, even buying weapons from german soldiers, whose morale was much lower then....


no, it wasn't

yes, the chances were, realistically seeing it, the same, basically none.

btw. the first comment, you replied to, wasn't from me (doesn't really matter).

Polish spirit is on display in Warsaw Uprising very well. Poles can die but don`t stop dream about liberty. They don`t want be slaves, never.

May I suggest you read the deposition of General Bear Cub (Leopold Okulicki) to the NKVD after his capture? It sets out the reasons, in his eyes (and he was a senior commander) for the Rising. It should be available online or is transcribed in Rising 44 by Norman Davies, another 'must read' on the Rising in my opinion.

It wasn't really a question (talking about my reply in form of a question), rather an answer to his comment.

Sorry, I thought it was. Are you familiar with General Bear Cub and his deposition? His is a tragic story, and one of many similar stories of the heroes of the Rising (like Kontrym, Nil, Pilecki) who faced judicial murder at the hands of the Soviets.

My dad went through the Rising as a small child and told me many things about his experiences. They are all tragic and gut wrenching, except for the story of the Polish/Jewish doctor who was saved by the Wehrmacht from the SS because he saved the life of a Wehrmacht Officer.

In 1943, The General Uprising of Jews and Poles had no chance of winning for one simple reason: the Eastern front (read: with Soviets who were our "allies" against Nazis) was still 1000 kilometeres away and Germans were fighting hard there.

In 1944 the chances were much bigger because the allied Soviets controlled the right bank of the Wisła river in Warsaw. If Stalin had given an order, the Rising would have been saved.

Today`s reenactments of Warsaw Rising:

Either way, it was hopeless. Logically thinking, you couldn't expect any help from the Soviets anyway (already explained it earlier in this thread).

Yes, but technically, the help was possible in 1944, while in 1943 - no.

Technically maybe but still an illusion due to Stalin's hatred toward Poland.

It was the desperate Uprising from the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. Where do you get the notion of any non-Jewish Poles involved?
Your notion of "General Uprising of Jews and Poles" denies the basic facts.
They refused the Jewish resistance fighters any support. Sold them weapons only for hard cash. Declined them any worthwhile aid.
Btw Why do General Anders' comments about the 1944 Uprising get so few reflections in this country?

OK, I have to admit that this confirms what I know about it too.

I hope, we'll be able to discuss constructively without any name calling.

I think it's because of communism - if it wasn't for that, I suspect that it would be seen differently.

The whole way that the Uprising came about was remarkably underhanded and devious too.

My notion?????

Don`t be silly and read all posts that were posted earlier.




Sorry, guys, if you want to discuss it, open a new thread about Warsaw Ghetto Rising 1943. I have nothing against and will gladly join you there,

But this thread is about Warsaw Rising 1944.

Don`t even try or you risk losing your posts in the bin. :):):):):):):)

it kinda connects though when we're discussing about whether or not any of them had a chance of success.

Read how Jews from the Nazi camp in Warsaw were saved by insurgents in 1944. Some of them joined Polish units and fought like mad.

After the first shots demolished the towers near the main entrance, foot soldiers entered into action. Within minutes small groups of Germans started to escape from the towers and to retreat to the administration building and further out beyond the wall of the compound in the direction of Pawiak. Platoon 'Felek' quickly flushed the remaining Germans out of the various areas of the camp. In the administration building they saw a most unusual scene. In the main hall there was a long table covered with a white tablecloth, a tureen filled with still warm soup, bottles of liquor and untouched plates. Only the turned over chairs testified to the hasty retreat of the Germans as an antique grandfather clock in the corner chimed eleven o'clock. The whole action took just 30 minutes of intense fighting. The fleeing black clad SS men were under Polish fire still some distance from the compound.

OK, I've heard about that too. It's a little bit of both, some helped and some haven't, as always.

Yeap. Life.

polish-heroes.org/descargas/Gesiowka-Story.pdf

Reenactment films from recent years:

youtu.be/U3fP1kXqpFo

youtu.be/5jn6u6ruBik

youtu.be/BjTW6jZvs5A

youtu.be/KoOGx2Vt6DE

A clever animation of Warsaw Rising with Lego blocks:

youtu.be/51aR9VFgnyU

Each year President of Warsaw invites residents to celebrate the anniversary of the Rising and they bring out such commercials:

The Warsaw uprising. It is your history! Remember it!

youtu.be/a_XoWThOIDI

youtu.be/sYO-I8_lVRE

youtu.be/SbYzHIHYvr8

youtu.be/R_R-6lt7iqs

So the Associated Press published the following blurb regarding the anniversary of the Warsaw Rising:


I found the wording quite interesting: thousands of residents began trying to free Warsaw from the Germans, as the Soviet Red Army advanced on the city.

Technically it is correct that the Soviets were advancing. Why do you think the AP would conveniently omit the fact that once the fireworks started, the Advancing Soviets decided to check up on the other side of the river?

Oh, dear Shawn, thank you so much for remembering. We have just come back from the seaside and on the way I had been wondering if anybody had mentioned the anniversary. You saved the PF`s reputation in a way. Not only silliness prevails here, after all! :):)


As usual, the tradition is continued:
see how young Warsawians, probably football fans, stop the traffic:

youtu.be/X253qMpkalc


Did they really write so? Not 17.00?


Do you think it has some deeper meaning?


youtu.be/XEVzLbdxaD0

They have coloured archive films and combined into a long documentary going to release it next year







I wonder: what happened to them? Did they survive or got killed? If they did, how? In combat? Or of wounds in insurgent hospital? Or in an execution with other captured POW insurgents?

Poland lost so many patriotic young people in 1944.... Those who survived insist there was no choice.....

Football fans celebrated the anniversary last year:

Poland is a land of many unknown heroes.

Today, Wola district in Warsaw celebrated the victims of Wola Massacre of 1944 when rabid Germans executed about 50 thousand civilians within a week.

Commemorated the inhabitants of the capital killed in the uprising Will in Poland

The Wola massacre (Polish: Rzeź Woli, "Wola slaughter") was the systematic killing of around 40,000-50,000 people by Nazi German troops during the Warsaw Uprising in 1944. Between 5-12 August 1944, tens of thousands of Polish civilians along with captured resistance fighters were indiscriminately shot or killed in organised mass executions throughout the Wola district of the Polish capital Warsaw. The action was designed to crush the Poles' will to fight and put the uprising to an end without having to commit to heavy city fighting.[1] However the Germans soon found that the atrocities in Wola only stiffened Polish resistance. German authority across the city was only achieved after more than two months of heavy fighting and the total destruction of Warsaw.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wola_massacre

"at 1500 GMT

Did they really write so? Not 17.00?"
They wrote the correct time.

Aaah, you mean 15 GMT is actually 17 in Warsaw....

It is during the summer time (during winter Warsaw is only one hour ahead of GMT).

Yesterday they celebrated the massacre of 300 people by " tank bomb".

Today, the anniversary of the massacre is celebrated as the Old Town Day.

A few Poles who took part in the Rising when young and survived became famous in communist Poland.

Zdzisław Maklakiewicz, actor, joined the Rising when 17. He played great roles after the war:

youtu.be/h7o8HzrgIMw

Today, another anniversary of Warsaw Rising.
My opinion hasn`t changed for years, what I wrote on page 1 is still valid.

I looked through the thread and there is nothing about far-reaching consequences of the Rising. I have heard those opinions a few times in my life. They are hard to prove but there might be a grain of truth after all.

In 1944 Poles proved that fighting for freedom, they were ready to sacrifice tens of thousands lives and the city, too. Didn`t Soviets remember about it when they occupied Poland after the war? Surely they did. There were two aborted Soviet interventions in Polish postwar history - in 1956 and 1980. We talked about it in other threads. Soviets were ready to intervene and the tank engines were warming up, yet, the order to halt the action came in the last moment.

Did Soviets hesitate and give up because they remembered Warsw Rising? It is not so unimaginable.

Read about Soviet planned interventions in Poland
1956
jstor.org/stable/20451318?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

1980
wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/ACFB35.PDF

An interesting quote from the Polish communist leader at the time - he told the Soviets in 1980:

At what may have been his finest hour, Kania did all he could to convince the Soviet chief that "if there were an intervention there would be a national uprising. Even if angels entered Poland," Kania predicted, "they would be treated as bloodthirsty vampires and the socialist ideas would be swimming in blood."

If the invasion had taken place, and the Soviets had installed their direct military rule in Poland in 1980, the collapse of communism would be delayed for many years. Fortunately, it fell in 1989.

In this way, if we assume that Warsaw Rising influenced the thinking of Poland`s enemies and made them resign from taking drastic action with possible tragic consequences, it might be considered a Triumph of Spirit.

Well said, Pawian.

Cześć i chwała bohaterom!

The latter I would think, a no brainer!