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Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?


OP pawian 161 | 9,938
1 Aug 2012  #91
That`s nice.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
1 Aug 2012  #92
Pawian,as I had said on a different thread;Don't know how I did that lol.American civilians weren't as directly affected by the war as in Europe.It's sad to me that many of our young are ignorant of what the Warsaw rising was.I feel that this can contribute to the impact of the war leaving our collective memory.Make sense?
OP pawian 161 | 9,938
1 Aug 2012  #93
American civilians weren't as directly affected by the war as in Europe

Yes, comparing the losses, Warsaw alone lost twice as much people (800.000) as US (400.000) during WW2. Not to mention the rest of Poland....

Make sense?

Yes.

The sirens in Krakow are wailing. It is 17.00 hours sharp.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
1 Aug 2012  #94
The sirens in Krakow are wailing. It is 17.00 hours sharp.

I wish I were there.
TheOther 5 | 3,790
1 Aug 2012  #95
It's sad to me that many of our young are ignorant of what the Warsaw rising was

That's human nature, I'd guess. Just ask yourself how many of us really care about what happened 200 years ago. Same will happen with the WW2 era. It's distant history, not more (and not less).
sofijufka 2 | 191
1 Aug 2012  #96
The sirens in Krakow are wailing. It is 17.00 hours sharp.

in Rzeszów also were wailing...
p3undone 8 | 1,135
1 Aug 2012  #97
TheOther,I know;I'm just stating why it's almost like distant memory to us as opposed to Europe.
tempsanity - | 13
2 Aug 2012  #98
Very difficult topic.

This is a great video indeed.

---

Check out facebook/warsaw for a great fanpage about Warsaw (events, places to see and more)
TheOther 5 | 3,790
2 Aug 2012  #99
I know;I'm just stating why it's almost like distant memory to us as opposed to Europe.

I disagree that this only happens in the US. People worldwide are so overloaded with information these days that they simply do not have the time or interest anymore to reflect on the past. History is consumed at best, but not really remembered or properly understood. Give it maybe two or three more generations and people will tell you "Yeah, I've heard about this big war some 150 years ago, but who on Earth is interested in this old sh.it?"
p3undone 8 | 1,135
2 Aug 2012  #100
TheOther,I don't mean the world;I was referring to the U.S..I agree that in the future people won't look at it the same.My statement was in reference to the Warsaw uprising and that in the U.S. it is not as known to Americans for said reason.In Europe I'm sure this is not the case.
TheOther 5 | 3,790
2 Aug 2012  #101
My statement was in reference to the Warsaw uprising and that in the U.S. it is not as known to Americans for said reason.In Europe I'm sure this is not the case.

I understood, and I disagreed... :)
It's not only the US where the Warsaw Uprising is largely unknown, it's most likely everywhere except for Poland.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
2 Aug 2012  #102
I never said that it was just the U.S.,I was explaining why it is so in the U.S. as opposed to Europe.I'm sure that more Europeans know about it because they know more about WW2.
vladi - | 13
2 Aug 2012  #103
Destruction of a city needs time.

If Warsaw Uprising had not broken out, we may assume that Warsaw would NOT have been that drastically destroyed, and lots of civilians would have been spared. Warsaw was systematically ruined during the uprising (for 2 months) and just after it (October-December, 3 months). In total 5 months.

The speed of Soviet offensive that started in January was so high (at least 5:1 advantage in any kind of weapons, soldiers) that the Germans would not have had a chance to destroy the city to that extent.

The Germans fiercely defended only their pre-war cities (Konigsberg, Breslau, Berlin).
OP pawian 161 | 9,938
2 Aug 2012  #104
If Warsaw Uprising had not broken out, we may assume that Warsaw would NOT have been that drastically destroyed, and lots of civilians would have been spared.

Quite correct.

The speed of Soviet offensive that started in January was so high (at least 5:1 advantage in any kind of weapons, soldiers) that the Germans would not have had a chance to destroy the city to that extent.

Yes. Of course, you mean Nazi German plans to change Warsaw into a fortress city and defend it at all cost.

The Germans fiercely defended only their pre-war cities.

Yes.

Most Nazis perpetrators of war crimes in Warsaw Rising weren`t tried after the war.

Let`s see the most notorious ones:

Erich Julius Eberhard von Zelewski or Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski (1 March 1899 - 8 March 1972) was a Nazi official of the Third Reich and a member of the SS, in which he reached the rank of SS-Obergruppenführer (General).

After more than two months of heavy fighting and the total destruction of Warsaw, Bach-Zalewski managed to take control of the city while committing the cruelest atrocities in the process.[9] For his exploits in Warsaw, Bach-Zalewski was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross by the Nazi regime on 30 September 1944.

Bach-Zelewski went into hiding and tried to leave the country. However, US military police arrested him on 1 August 1945. In exchange for his testimony against his former superiors at the Nuremberg Trials, Bach-Zelewski never faced trial for any war crimes. Similarly, he never faced extradition to Poland or to the USSR. He left prison in 1949.


s
goofy_the_dog
26 Aug 2012  #105
In my opinion the Warsaw Uprising was one of the greatest heroic battles that Poland had fought in its entire history. most of these men and women were never soldiers, most didn't even had a weapond but bottle filled with petrol. However they have all marched into combat like bloody veterans!

I totally disagree with that are saying that Warsaw Uprising wasn't necessary... If we'd imagne that Warsaw Uprising wouldn't have happened all those people would die anyway! But from the hands of our GREAT RED BROTHER, all the officers, AK soldiers, proffesors, rich...

The Warsaw Uprising didn't like that! It was planned for many years by the highest officials of the AK and the Polish Goverment in the UK, it was all based on the false lie of Stalin, that he was a friend of Poland, therefore he would command his armies to help the AK in the Warsaw Uprising.

That didn't happen, and most of the Poles that had founght in the 'rising knew the russkis were just on the border of the city but chosen to just stay and watch as the massacre enveloped. However all those people fought and died for two months!

Imagine how great the price was, but it was right price for those two months of clean and total freedom of just one city... 300 000 lives.
OP pawian 161 | 9,938
26 Aug 2012  #106
most of these men and women were never soldiers,

Actually, most of them underwent military training in secret classes, in the city as well as forests around Warsaw.

most didn't even had a weapond

Yes.

However they have all marched into combat like bloody veterans!

Exactly. That was the spirit of 1944.

s

it was all based on the false lie of Stalin, that he was a friend of Poland, therefore he would command his armies to help the AK in the Warsaw Uprising.

Polish leaders who gave an order to the Rising didn`t see through Stalin`s trickstery. Don`t you think they are to blame for it? Stalin had been known for years as one of the cruellest and cleverest dictators in history.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,669
26 Aug 2012  #107
but it was right price for those two months of clean and total freedom of just one city

Clean and total freedom? Hardly - it was guerilla warfare.
Barney 14 | 1,469
27 Aug 2012  #108
Just ask yourself how many of us really care about what happened 200 years ago. Same will happen with the WW2 era. It's distant history, not more (and not less).

When will 4th July be abolished?
goofy_the_dog
27 Aug 2012  #109
Yes but I meant freedom in a more psychological sense, people could sing the Forbidden Songs, they had hope and a spark of happiness...
4 eigner 2 | 831
27 Aug 2012  #110
Warsaw Rising 1944

You should have done it in 1943 (Warsaw Ghetto Uprising), together with your Jewish countrymen. You probably wouldn't beat the Nazis either but you'd make it last longer (speculation, I know).
grubas 12 | 1,391
27 Aug 2012  #111
You should have done it in 1943 (Warsaw Ghetto Uprising), together with your Jewish countrymen.

What would be the point?What you are saying is pretty ignorant and/or dumb.
4 eigner 2 | 831
27 Aug 2012  #112
Oh really? Why is it dumb? Because they were Jews (Polish citizens though) or because both Uprisings didn't make any sense since it was clear that there was no realistic chance for success?
grubas 12 | 1,391
27 Aug 2012  #113
Why is it dumb?

Because what would be the point?

because both Uprisings didn't make any sense since it was clear that there was no realistic chance for success.

From today's perspective you are right,but we have knowledge those in 1944 did not have.Unlike Warsaw uprising 1943 Ghetto uprising was just a gesture of despair without any,zero,null,nada chance to succed.

since it was clear that there was no realistic chance for success?

How WAS it clear in 1944?
4 eigner 2 | 831
27 Aug 2012  #114
Because what would be the point?

What was the point of the Warsaw Uprising in 1944? (same point)

Unlike Warsaw uprising 1943 Ghetto uprising was just a gesture of despair without any,zero,null,nada chance to succed.

the chance to succeed was exactly the same in both cases and I'm sure that at least the higher ranking leaders of the Warsaw Uprising 1944, were aware of it.

How WAS it clear in 1944?

OK, then tell me what made them believe, they had a chance against the Nazis? They knew that they can't count on any help from the Soviets.

The last thing Stalin wanted, was Poland from before the WWII.
grubas 12 | 1,391
27 Aug 2012  #115
What was the point of the Warsaw Uprising in 1944? (same point)

The point was to free Warsaw.

the chance to succeed was exactly the same in both cases

You are really ignorant.Do you know where was Soviet army in April/May 1943?You don't?I thought so.Check and come back.In 1944 Soviet army was on the other bank of Vistula and nobody knew they are going to stop and let Germans massacre uprising.Before it even started Soviet planes were dropping leaflets calling Warsaw people to rise up and saying that they are coming to help.Even western allies were surprised when Soviets stopped offensive and did not want to allow US and British planes with supplies for Warsaw to use their airfields.And you are saying that "the chance to succeed was exactly the same in both cases"?Get some education dude.

They knew that they can't count on any help from the Soviets.

They knew?How did they know it?

The last thing Stalin wanted, was Poland from before the WWII.

We know it now but it wasn't so clear in 1944.
4 eigner 2 | 831
27 Aug 2012  #116
The point was to free Warsaw.

so if you did it together in 1943, it wouldn't be the same in your eyes? They were also Poles (Polish Jews). As I said, the chances were the same.

You are really ignorant.Do you know where was Soviet army in April/May 1943?

of course I know but it was clear, they wouldn't help you. Again, the last thing Stalin wanted, was Poland from before WWII.

You don't know me or my education level so it's much smarter for you to concentrate on our debate instead to throw insults in my face (unless you're unable to discuss).

They knew?How did they know it?

Common sense, just compare both political systems, Poland before WWII and the SU. It's sad I have to explain it to you.

We know it now but it wasn't so clear in 1944.

Excuse me? What wasn't clear back then, that the SU was a commie country and Poland wasn't?
Who needs to get some education now..."dude"?
grubas 12 | 1,391
27 Aug 2012  #117
Common sense, just compare both political systems, Poland before WWII and the SU.

And?What does it have to do with anything?Was Great Britain or US a commie country in 1941-1945?They were not acording to my knowledge yet they were allied with SU.

so if you did it together in 1943,

Dude in april/may 1943 Soviet army was deep in the Ukraine and battle of Kursk hasn't even started yet.Together or not it would be a suicide,plain and simple.

They were also Poles (Polish Jews).

Some were some were not.That's off topic anyway.

of course I know but it was clear, they wouldn't help you.

How was it clear?I am telling you Soviet planes were dropping leaflets and Soviet radio was calling Warsaw people to rise so how was it clear?Post any western intelligence report saying that Soviets will stop their offensive.Just one.
legend 3 | 664
27 Aug 2012  #118
It is a little bit of them. They were trying to regain the city but over 125,000 people died.

I have a question... I have heard that Russian armies were standing outside Warsaw and waiting for the battle to die down before they entered.

Were the Russians waiting on purpose or was this just accident? Propaganda or not?
4 eigner 2 | 831
27 Aug 2012  #119
And?What does it have to do with anything?Was Great Britain or US a commie country in 1941-1945?They were not acording to my knowledge yet they were allied with SU.

It had something to do with Stalin not wanting to help Poland because Poland didn't have much to offer back then (and would certainly not freely join Stalin's political block either) unlike the US and GB. I'm sure, I don't have to send you a link to confirm what kind of help it was.

Dude in april/may 1943 Soviet army was deep in the Ukraine and battle of Kursk hasn't even started yet.Together or not it would be a suicide,plain and simple.

It surely was a suicide plan but so was the uprising in 1944 (I already explained it)

Some were some were not.That's off topic anyway.

most of them in Warsaw were Poles (Polish citizens anyway)

How was it clear?I am telling you Soviet planes were dropping leaflets and Soviet radio was calling Warsaw people to rise so how was it clear?Post any western intelligence report saying that Soviets will stop their offensive.Just one.

again Grubas, common sense. You guys knew, there was no "love" between you and the Soviets (politically and historically) and if Stalin ever wanted to help you, why didn't he do it earlier? When I know, someone hates me, I don't expect any help from him, do you?
grubas 12 | 1,391
27 Aug 2012  #120
Were the Russians waiting on purpose or was this just accident?

Do you think they didn't allow US and British planes with supplies for Warsaw to use their airfields by accident?

It surely was a suicide plan but so was the uprising in 1944 (I already explained it)

No you didn't.Anyway,I will repeat,in April/May 1943 the Germans were preparing offensive in the Ukraine and the outcome of war wasn't decided yet while in Jun/July 1944 the Germans were in full scale retreat.Kind of difference I would say.

most of them in Warsaw were Poles (Polish citizens anyway)

Polish citizens,ok but it doesn't mean Poles.


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