The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 267

Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?


Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
1 Aug 2011  #31
Don`t you think AK commanders made a too hasty decision, seeing a few Soviet tanks reaching the borders of Warsaw, they thought the Soviets are going to storm, while it was only reconaissance.

Since Soviet help wasn't forthcoming and the uprising failed to liberate Warsaw, and it cost many Polish lives, it is fair to say from a purely military perspective that the AK commanders made a mistake, but you never know until you try, and the brave people of Warsaw were surely willing to try, and their cause was just, and so from an ethical perspective it is fair to say that the AK commanders didn't make a mistake.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
1 Aug 2011  #32
I appreciate your noble opinion. I tend to be more harsh on AK commanders because I read some articles about them (not long ago) and some were quite reckless by character, while others were weak and let themselves be dominated by hot heads.

A lot of buildings and objects in Warsaw still bear scars of war:
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
1 Aug 2011  #33
I tend to be more harsh on AK commanders because I read some articles about them (not long ago) and some were quite reckless by character, while others were weak and let themselves be dominated by hot heads.

I'm harsh on them because they effectively sent people to their doom - when there was an alternative option available. In my opinion - they had the resources for one attack - and they chose the worst time.
Ironside 47 | 9,624
2 Aug 2011  #34
Germans were going to make a stand in Warsaw anyway. There was a plan to use Warsaw males to built trenches.
I think that commanders on the ground knew the best. Sadly there were not good solutions.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
2 Aug 2011  #35
Yes it was a catastrophe, Poland was shorn of so many of its future leaders etc. Nevertheless this doesn't take away from the extraordinary bravery and determination of the people. What really disgusts me is the 'rent a crowd' hired by PIS to booo the Prime minister and Bartoszewski-only the lowest of the low, pure scum could do that

Tribute to the heroes, their memory will live forever.


BBman - | 344
2 Aug 2011  #36
If Poland simply waited for the inevitable German vs Soviet fight to the end - she could have waited and waited until the Soviet overstretched their supply lines in the race for Berlin...

Is this a serious idea? It sounds insane to me.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
2 Aug 2011  #37
God help me if I ever came across one of those PIS people.

I had the pleasure once. Amusing, if only because she hit a child because he dared to tell the truth rather than their hate-fuelled version.

Is this a serious idea? It sounds insane to me.

History shows that the Soviets seriously over-stretched their supply line in order to get to Berlin first. The same history tells us the AK had some capability in Poland - not a lot, but some. We also know that the Germans were willing to fight to the death in many places - Poznan, Kustrin, etc.

Now - do you honestly think the Western Allies would have been particularly keen on helping out Stalin if the Poles were destroying their supply lines? Germany was losing the war anyway by late 44, early 45 - and they may actually have been quite happy to see the Poles fight the Soviets in order to take Berlin before the Soviets.

Sure, it might not have worked - but it would've been a damn sight smarter than sending children to the slaughter needlessly. Poland had to do something, that was sure - but the Warsaw Uprising was the wrong time to do it.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
2 Aug 2011  #38
They had no interest in helping independent Poland. That is why they waited and observed from the right bank how patriotic Poles bled in uneven fight.

Knowing that your communist regime will control Poland one day, the last thing you want is a bunch of hard-core nationalists around. Better get rid of them.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
2 Aug 2011  #39
I had the pleasure once. Amusing, if only because she hit a child because he dared to tell the truth rather than their hate-fuelled version.

Would you believe it. tell us the whole story, maybe my anger will be mellowed by my humour- should have reported her for child abuse(:
brisrodney 1 | 18
2 Aug 2011  #40
No matter which way you look at it, it was very sad painful time for many.
Ironside 47 | 9,624
2 Aug 2011  #41
What really disgusts me is the 'rent a crowd' hired by PIS to booo the Prime minister and Bartoszewski-only the lowest of the low, pure scum could do that

nonsense, who take pat in politics and speaks like he did , overplaying authority to dead, can be booed anytime, thats democrasy for you.
Ogorki - | 115
2 Aug 2011  #42
If Poland simply waited for the inevitable German vs Soviet fight to the end - she could have waited and waited until the Soviet overstretched their supply lines in the race for Berlin....and then BANG

I assume that you are very young? Your lack of knowledge and understanding of this whole issue is at minimum - annoying. So Mr Hindsight - lets go back a little. Only 25 years prior to these events, Poland freed herslf (with the help of NOONE) from 123 years of Russian occupation. Poland did not exist for 123 YEARS. Poland defeated the RED army in 1920 and made herself free. Many people vowed that they would rather DIE than return to that humiliating and degrading existance. Polish people were both proud they freed themselves and had honour. The ability to do the right thing in the face of adversity. Not to sit back and wait - wait for someone alse to come and do her dirty work for her. Like Paris for example. Oh save our beautiful city - Paris had to be saved with the blood of american soldiers - together with other allied forces. Remember - the first person to commit suicide off the Stalin Tower in Warsaw was a French man - becuase he deemed it a more HONOURABLE place to die than the Eiffel Tower. During the war it was clear to Poland that the allies were not keen to help - because they were scared of upsetting Stalin THAT WAS IT. Scared of upsetting stalin. The Russian army was 'resting' on the east bank of the Wistula becuase it was waiting for the Poles to eventually be beaten by the Germans. They lasted 63 freaking days against the germans. How much time does it take to get help? But help never came - AND THAT IS THE DISASTER that Warsaw suffered. The complete inhumanity of it all. The Russians could have helped - but no. The allies could have helped - but no. Poles, who would rather die fighting than be taken again by the Ruissians, did what they did becuase they did not really see any other way out. Who was out there willing to help? Both Germany and Russia CLEARLY wanted Poland dead...and all you can do is sit back in you comfort zone and criticise. You don't even know you are born.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?
That's it - we'll wait! Let's just wait and let them kill us all like cowards. LOL
The cavalry will SOON be here"! LOL

I'm sure you probably would have curled up in some corner and cried like a baby.
Lyzko
2 Aug 2011  #43
BINGO, Pickles!

The wretched Poles had zero choice but to fight. As always, they have been surrounded by enemies, but the most loathsome were of course, the enemies from within who sold out the resistance and profited handsomely after the War.
Ogorki - | 115
2 Aug 2011  #44
but the most loathsome were of course, the enemies from within who sold out the resistance and profited handsomely after the War.

There were NO enemies from within Poland that sold out the resistance - if thats what you mean?
Lyzko
3 Aug 2011  #45
Sure there were. Every country had such filth even among their own ranks, sorry to burst your bubble!
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
3 Aug 2011  #46
nonsense, who take pat in politics and speaks like he did , overplaying authority to dead, can be booed anytime, thats democrasy for you.

You and me are clearly cut from a different cloth. Take a look at this video and see if you still hold the same point of view. Too bad that the moderator edited my comments from yesterday, then you could read how they were calling Bartoszewski a traitor-calling for the disinterring of Geremek's grave because he was "a jew and a mason", and when lady from the uprising told them to keep quiet they called her a communst *****.

After witnessing that I honestly think that you would have to be fukced in the head to vote PIS.
Ironside 47 | 9,624
3 Aug 2011  #47
After witnessing that I honestly think that you would have to be fukced in the head to vote PIS.

Can you speak Polish? Because there is nothing about PiS supporters doing all that, except for unfounded insinuations made by reporters.
What about not using flicks of politicians attending graves of insurgents. Its clear they use it for propaganda purposes.
In Poland there is ideological and political war.
Second point, that is the way democracy expresses itself, you along with many Poles seems to be thinking that democracy is all about voting and of people stately sliding along in a dignified manner - well, apparently you are wrong about that.

If I would vote for PiS only to dis-loge PO's power base a little ....:)
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
3 Aug 2011  #48
Can you speak Polish? Because there is nothing about PiS supporters doing all that, except for unfounded insinuations made by reporters.

There is footage of them screaming abuse at Bronisław Geremek's funeral.

In Poland there is ideological and political war.

No. There is normal life and a lunatic fringe.

If I would vote for PiS only to dis-loge PO's power base a little ....:)

Only PO can stop the PiS fruitcakes.

There were NO enemies from within Poland that sold out the resistance - if thats what you mean?

A stack of denunciation letters were published several years ago. "My neighbour is in the AK and holds secret meetings", "Mrs Z has a secret printing press" etc. That sort of wretched thing. Written by Poles to the occupying authorities.
Ogorki - | 115
3 Aug 2011  #49
Lyzko

The wretched Poles had zero choice but to fight. As always, they have been surrounded by enemies, but the most loathsome were of course, the enemies from within who sold out the resistance and profited handsomely after the War.

Sure there were. Every country had such filth even among their own ranks, sorry to burst your bubble!

No bubble here - just crossed lines. The enemies from within (your definition) are irrelevant here. I was referring to enemies that had a direct effect on the direction of Poland's destiny. The enemies surrounding Poland - yes - they EVENTUALLY stopped the uprising. The enemies from within had no known effect on the duration or effectiveness of the uprising. Of course there were the individual squealers, probably German sympathisers, the tortured, the mentally ill. Can you give one reason why any REAL Pole in 1944 would voluntarily betray his country (except for those reasons I just mentioned?) The Germans knew what the Poles had planned but were not sure if/when it would happen. A few days before the uprising a Polish woman after TORTURE, broke - and told the germans an uprising was due. Even then they were caught of guard.

THE UPRISING WAS SUCCESSFUL - THE CITY WAS CLEARED - BUT NO OTHER ALLY TOOK THE INITIATIVE TO HELP AND OF COURSE - THE UPRISING WAS BUTCHERED!

but the Warsaw Uprising was the wrong time to do it.

so when then - when the Germans were stronger before the Ruissian advance?
After the Russian advance when the Russians would have been stronger?
You don't know what you are talking about.

It was utterly tragic that so many people died in vain - the AK leadership almost certainly has blood on their hands for this. It was simply a dreadful move - brave, courageous, but dreadful.

Could you possibly sound more patronising? The only fault of the AK leadership was to stupidly assume that their ALLIES (including Russia) would actually have the balls to help them. But they were alright JACK!

PS The uprising was not a military exercise. An uprising is a group of occupied/enslaved desperate people attempting to free themselves. The Polish military assited the uprising as much as they could without being discovered. An uprising is not a counter-attack - it is not an offensive. It is simply people - rebelling.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Aug 2011  #50
Radosław Sikorski apparently tweeted that Poland screwed up but he really can't feel how people must have felt in those times. You have to put up a fight against a war machine that is hellbent on your destruction. Sometimes there is no other way. It's kill or be killed!
Lyzko
3 Aug 2011  #51
All clear, ogórki-:) We're back on track. German "squealers" and snitches planted to infiltrate the troops behind enmy lines were rife. Just look at those stirring Time-Life photo ops during the War showing informers being dragged through the streets of French cities by Free French, punching and kicking them before turning them in to the authorities!
rybnik 18 | 1,462
3 Aug 2011  #52
Catastrophe. Poles were betrayed many times by many governments.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
29 Aug 2011  #53
Warsaw Rising songs have always seemed the greatest Polish war songs to me: most patriotic, melodious, touching. Unique.

Chłopcy silni jak stal, Boys strong as steel, with photo slid show.



Godłem nam Biały Ptak, Our emblem is White Bird
A "Parasol" to znak, Umbrella is our sign
Naszym hasłem piosenka szturmowa! Our slogan is battle song
Pośród kul, huku dział Among bullets and cannonade
Oddział stoi, jak stał, Our unit is standing, like before
Choć poległa już chłopców połowa. Although half boys are dead
Dziś padł on, jutro ja, śmierć nie pyta. Today he fell, tomorrow I will, death doesn`t choose.


The March of Mokotów District



The March of Żoliborz District
...

Warsaw Children

Michla Palace

Hey, Boys, Baynonette on!



Germans shelled and bombed Warsaw with everything they had, especially artillery (rocket launchers)

I am posting this link before I forget about it: August 1944 German war newsreel, with English subtitles:
RetroDog
5 Sep 2011  #54
I can't understand how You assume, that knowing what we know, Warsaw Uprising was a disaster, because so many Poles died, and they lost.

well, and they could have waited for .... ? what?
50 years of Russian rule in ?
knowing what we know, there is little doubt that Russians would have taken care of AK, and NKWD would have been only little more busy killing polish elite or whatever Poles they thought were dangerous to communistic rule.

We know that most Poles after WW2 ( and probably gen. Anders) though there must be WW3 because allies wouldn't leave central european nations ( like Poles who wrongly assumed that they are on the same side as GB and USA) under Russian rule.

Red Army weren't freeing Poland, they were bringing communism.
Poland was already sold to Stalin, and from our perspective there was nothing to wait for.
they didn't know, but we knows.
also , I'm a little bit harsh, but what was Wielkopolskie Rising successful at?
I mean has it spare Wielkopolska from 50 years of Russian rule?
I must have missed this part of Polish history.
Sad thing is Poles lost war. on all fronts. every little battle they won was lost thanks to Churchill and Roosevelt ( by the hands of Stalin). Warsaw Uprising was at least moral victory. bloody and destructive but last standing of the Poles of past.
PWEI 3 | 612
5 Sep 2011  #55
every little battle they won was lost thanks to Churchill and Roosevelt ( by the hands of Stalin).

Really? Which of those three leaders wanted to send planes with supplies for Warsaw and then land them at Soviet bases without Soviet permission? And which one replied with the words "I do not consider it advantageous to the long range general war prospect for me to join with you in the proposed message to U.J. [Uncle Joe]"?
sobieski 107 | 2,129
5 Sep 2011  #56
So the PIS loonies also would consider General Anders a commie traitor. His criticism of the Uprising was no secret, he considered it an idiocy.
RetroDog
5 Sep 2011  #57
since quoting is not working for me on this forum I have to go with "

@PWEI
what is your point?
my pont is that we shouldn't consider only what happened during WU but also what happened for 50 years after.
Your question should be " wich one of them left millions of European under Russian rule, after using their troops and people in war, and promising them independent countries".

I wasn't referring to WU only, but to WW2.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
5 Sep 2011  #58
I'm by no means well read on this topic but I think the Warsaw Uprising was logical for a very good reason. When you feel that the morale of your opponent is down, you capitalise. You don't need to have read Sun-Tzu to know that. Szpilman wrote about this in his book, 'The Pianist'. Besides, many had survived so long and they knew their enemy. It was often fight or be killed unless you were lucky enough to run into a Nazi with some sympathy for you. Oftentimes, that was an oxymoron.
MyMom 6 | 137
5 Sep 2011  #59
Warsaw Uprising was the continuation of Operation Tempest. Now, do you think AK leadership in Warsaw didn't know what happened to those Home Army units who tried to help Russians advance in Kresy? (which was also already illogical because since June 1943 Soviet partisants were as much focused on fighting the Poles as they were on fighting the Germans).
Seanus 15 | 19,706
5 Sep 2011  #60
Asides from some naivety in their ranks, they knew very well what happened to them. They'd have to be fools not to.


Home / History / Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.