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Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?


Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
1 Aug 2019  #151
In 1944 Poles proved that fighting for freedom, they were ready to sacrifice tens of thousands lives and the city, too.

Total and utter nonsense. They had no way to predict what Poland would be like after the war and the 1956 and 1980 events. The Uprising was just an attempt to form a government that would be unfriendly to the Soviets and the Soviets would have none of this. They already had that in the past and it didn't work out for them very well, did it?

You, with the benefit of hindsight, can now show how the dots connect from August 1944 till today to justify this act of reckless stupidity. Talk about Monday morning quarterbacking. The Uprising was a political act, not a fight for freedom from Germany. That was already in the process - like the tsunami in 2004. The participants decided to be wiseguys and, by this act, caused death of thousands and of the city.

it might be considered a Triumph of Spirit.

F*ck the Spirit. I almost died right along with my babysitter and my parents. Lucky for me, Germans were nicer that the Uprisers were smart and took my babysitter and me to a camp in Hamburg. Later, Germans were still not in the mood to end my life so they released me to my mother when she went there to get me after she got a travel document from the Germans three months later. In facts, the German civilians gave us food and diapers. Thanks, Germans.

It will be snowing in July in Arizona before I call the Uprisers brave or patriotic.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
1 Aug 2019  #152
Of course they were brave and patriotic. It wasn`t their fault they were misled by the top command, it is another matter.
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
1 Aug 2019  #153
It was their fault because it's safe to assume that they believed their cause and considered all the likely outcomes and their consequences. This is where you are in a corner because you cannot claim that they were just acting like brainless robots. And for a very simple reason: a hero is a person who puts his life on the line while aware of the risks. Eliminate just one of those two and he is hero no more but a reckless idiot.

What you just did is an attempt to separate the head from the muscle. If, in fact, they were misled - how about "were lied to"? - then the top command should have been charged criminally for playing politics with other humans. To make things even more hideous, from the safety of another country and no risk to themselves.

Today, those remote "patriots" would have a big 4k screen and a joystick.
mafketis 20 | 7,046
1 Aug 2019  #154
Of course they were brave and patriotic

don't engage with the malignant narcissist... it revels in the attention, starve its need for feedback instead
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
1 Aug 2019  #155
a hero is a person who puts his life on the line while aware of the risks.

How do you know Warsaw insurgents weren`t aware of the risks? As far I as know, you aren`t really interested in Polish things so you haven`t read any diaries, historical books, reports etc.

top command should have been charged criminally for playing politics with other humans.

I fully agree. That has been my opinion since I became a mature recipient of history - commanders of the Rising were like kids lost in the forest and today`s naming streets after them is a dishonour made to all the victims.

As for ordinary insurgents, they were heroes and greatest patriots ever.

don't engage with the malignant narcissist... it revels in the attention, starve its need for feedback instead

No, it`s OK, Rich`s views aren `t so rare, I met quite a few Poles who share them . It`s a standard discussion.
mafketis 20 | 7,046
1 Aug 2019  #156
How do you know Warsaw insurgents weren`t aware of the risks?

Wasn't their biggest mistake trusting the Soviets? Never relax around, trust or turn your back on Russian soldiers.. hadn't Poland learned that by 1944?
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
1 Aug 2019  #157
Wasn't their biggest mistake trusting the Soviets?

There wasn`t any trust. I read diaries - before the Rising, the AK underground press practically didn`t write anything about Germans, they mostly ranted against Soviets. There was no trust and no agreement - politically, the Rising was directed against the Soviets.

Poles were simply convinced that Soviets would continue their offensive into Warsaw. Capturing a big city is always a reason for glory and celebration. When they realised it was wishful thinking, it was too late and Germans were massacring Polish civilians by thousands.

There is a good example of Polish double thinking on Soviets - they were hated and at the same time - expected to come.

Poem Red Plaque
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Plague

We are waiting for you, red plague...
you will be salvation welcomed with revulsion...
we are waiting for you, our eternal enemy...
bloody murderer of so many of our brethren....
Your red, victorious army has been lying at the bright feet of burning Warsaw
and is feeding its soul with bloody pain of a handful of madmen who are dying in the ruins.

mafketis 20 | 7,046
1 Aug 2019  #158
Poles were simply convinced that Soviets would continue their offensive into Warsaw

Number one rule of the Soviet army: When you don't want them.... they're there. On the rare occasions when they might be of some use.... they are oddly absent...
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
1 Aug 2019  #159
How do you know Warsaw insurgents weren`t aware of the risks?

OK, on the list of risks, was there an item like this: We start shooting Germans who are only days from running home for their lives. Instead, they stop and kill many Poles. They set fire to the buildings where Poles are hiding. The Soviets will gleefully watch from across the river until all fighting stops and the Germans, although victorious, are worn out, which makes the next move by the Soviet army crossing the river and into Warsaw a lot easier.

Let's assume that the Uprising is successful and that the Germans - notice that I never call them NAZI's - leave Warsaw and a group of Poles who now claim to be the legitimate government of Poland. Now, what do the Soviets do? Hmm...How about rounding them up, executing the top the same day and sending the rest to Siberia as a warning what will happen to anyone with the funny idea of not being Soviet ally. Duh!

Number one rule of the Soviet army: When you don't want them.... they're there.

Are you sure you are not confusing the Soviet army with the US army? Who is in Syria - illegally? Not the Russians. It's our boys, girls and some weirdos in between.

The Soviet army did and the Russian army does what is good for their country and have zero obligation to make Poland happy. That was as true in August of 1944 as it is true now. But to a Polak, the center of gravity of the Universe is, of course Poland, and the only approved feeling is a desire to die for it.

Logical thinking is unpatriotic - an equivalent of hate speech today.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
1 Aug 2019  #160
Instead, they stop and kill many Poles.

Insurgents believed they were able to throw Germans out of Warsaw within days. After 5 years of brutal occupation, they wanted to take revenge at last for all crimes Germans had committed to Warsaw and its residents.

Now, what do the Soviets do? Hmm...How about rounding them up, executing the top the same day and sending the rest to Siberia

Yes, that would have happened sooner or later. However. Poles believed that the West wouldn`t allow Soviets to do it. They didn`t know that the West was planning to make a deal with Stalin about the future of Poland which was to become Soviet. The Tehran Conference 1943 was the place where the fate of Poland was secretly decided for the first time. But in 1944 hardly anybody in Poland expected that "betrayal." Poles fought hard on the side of allies and believed they would be treated fair.

The Soviet army did and the Russian army does what is good for their country and have zero obligation to make Poland happy.

Of course. That is why Soviets were always treated as occupants by patriotic Poles and all those who cooperated with Soviets were sort of traitors of the Polish cause. Simple.

But to Polak, center of gravity of the Universe is, of course Poland, and the only approved feeling is a desire to die for it.

Now you are vitriolic without reason. Calm down. The center of Universe for an American is the USA. Don`t you rant about illegals every day? Why? Cause US is the center of Universe for you. So simple.
mafketis 20 | 7,046
1 Aug 2019  #161
the West was planning to make a deal with Stalin about the future of Poland which was to become Soviet

Given the love that MN (malignant narcisssist) has for love he should have been overjoyed at living in a soviet controlled puppet state....
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
1 Aug 2019  #162
I counted them. You used "believe" three times. Not a compelling way to explain taking the risks of that magnitude. Do you believe there is water in the pool or do you first check and check and check some more before you jump?

But in 1944 hardly anybody in Poland expected that "betrayal."

I usually don't scream posting, but this time I will: WHAT???? Poland was betrayed in 1939!!! In a most spectacular way possible. The allies just didn't know that a huge German war machine was assembling on the Polish border. Sure.

However. Poles believed that the West wouldn`t allow Soviets to do it.

How could the West not allow the Soviets anything with the Soviet army in the millions and on location, with the West tired and over there.

I think we have come to the point where we can shake hands and stop. I appreciate you not calling me names, too.

Now, you can continue with the as*hole right above.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
1 Aug 2019  #163
You used "believe" three times. Not a compelling way to explain taking the risks of that magnitude

Yes, believe reminds one of sth magical, doesn`t it? When thinking of the West and Western attitude towards Poland, Poles often apply "believe." That`s been the Polish thinking for centuries. Poles believe that the West believes that we are like them. hahaha That is why I consider all attempts to push Poland out of the EU as extremely harmful. Today those losers vehemently insist on Poland out of Western orbit and tomorrow they will be the first to whine about Western betrayal when Westerners again turn their backs on us in hard times.

but this time I will: WHAT???? Poland was betrayed in 1939!!!

"Betrayal" of 1939 was different, much lighter than the one of 1945. In 1939 Poland was only invaded by Germans who would be defeated anyway, sooner or later. In 1945, Poland lost its Eastern territories and became a Soviet satellite, predictably for ever.

How could West not allow the Soviets anything with the Soviet army in the millions and on location, with the West tired and over there.

The common belief was that ....... and so on. :)

I think we have come to the point where we can shake hands and stop. I appreciate you not calling me names, too.

As you wish. As for calling names, there was no need for that. After all, we have reached an agreement on Rising leaders. :):)
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
3 Aug 2019  #165
It might be useful to see Warsaw monuments commemorating the Rising. Watch and decide it they symbolise the National Disaster or the Triumph of Spirit. One by one.

This monument covers 12 tons of ashes which Germans left after they had burnt the bodies of 50.000 civilians executed in Wola discrict. It bears an inscription: They perished undefeated.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomnik_Polegli_Niepokonani_w_Warszawie





Lyzko 20 | 6,342
3 Aug 2019  #166
So curious for me to read in certain posts here that in some circles, the Germans come off smelling better than the Russians who are are cast as the perennial "enemy", even while liberating your countries from Nazism.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
3 Aug 2019  #167
The monument to The Little Insurgent

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C5%82y_Powstaniec





dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
3 Aug 2019  #168
even while liberating your countries from Nazism.

What, who taught you history ? you know the soviets were in a pact to invade with Germany??
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
3 Aug 2019  #169
in some circles, the Germans come off smelling better than Russians as perennial "enemy".

Sorry, too little data to reply sth coherent. Simply speaking, you sound too equivocal. Can you show the posts with such opinions?

The main monument to Warsaw Rising, part 1









dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
3 Aug 2019  #170
smelling better than the Russians

The russians held back from sweeping across Poland for at least 66 days, so that the Polish spirit would be crushed and pliable to their left wing marxist agenda.

Meanwhile 200,000 poles died during that time , also many tens of thousands of Jews were being burned in ovens by the Germans.

Many of the lives above could have been saved if the Russians had an ounce of humanity in their bones'

Sadly they bided their time so that they could rape kill murder and fill their bellies with the spoils of war.
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
3 Aug 2019  #171
Many of the lives above could have been saved if the Russians had an ounce of humanity in their bones'

Did you consider that the Soviets looked at the Warsaw Uprising is an opportunity to get some rest, wait for winter when the river is ice, and save their men from death, first, and to avoid dealing with an unfriendly Polish government, later? Try to argue that they should not have pursued their own equivalent of "America First".

A far as rapes, compare the Soviet rapes with the number of Koreans, Vietnamese, and Iraqis we killed, or caused to be killed, and you will never mention those rapes again.

Also, don't forget the 50 million abortions the "progressive" America performed so far. Then, put all three evil things I just mentioned on the same scale and see how they stack up.

BTW, the higher the number of the Polish dead, the worse that Uprising looks. Not better or more patriotic.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
3 Aug 2019  #172
Warsaw Rising monument part 2







Miloslaw 6 | 1,815
3 Aug 2019  #173
@Rich Mazur
Sorry, but I don't buy any of your cynicism here.
I'm with Dolno and Pawian.
They didn't know what was happening, all they knew they could do was fight.
Rich, it's easy to judge with hindsight, but I reckon if you were there then, with what little you knew, you would have fought like a lion rather than die as a coward.

They were all heroes and deserve to be celebrated as such.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
3 Aug 2019  #174
Baszta was an AK regiment. Its soldiers were the elite among Warsaw insurgents, fought in hardest areas. Did you know that Kaczyński twins` father fought in Warsaw Rising as Baszta soldier?

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zgrupowanie_Pu%C5%82ku_Baszta

Baszta means keep or castle tower. Its monument resembles one. .



Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
3 Aug 2019  #175
They didn't know what was happening, all they knew they could do was fight.

That makes things even worse. Acting like a mindless robot, which you just admitted, is fine when you risk only your own ass. In this case, it was pure politics and an attempt to put the Soviets in front of an accomplished fact: Poland has its government in place and it's the kind that the Soviets would not like.

Talk about stupid and historically ignorant. Yeah, the Soviet million-men army would blink because a bunch of Poles with funny rifles and no ammo are in their way.

So, the Soviets, PREDICTABLY, said nyet, we are not playing THAT game. And the rest is history.

Really, what would YOU expect them to do? Say, oops, sorry, we didn't know this room is already taken?

BTW, predictably, this discussion reveals the true Polish nature: the love of heroes, monuments and poetry. Logic? No way. Unpatriotic.
Miloslaw 6 | 1,815
3 Aug 2019  #176
That makes things even worse

So you would have been a yellow bellied chicken and run to The Russians to save your ass?
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
3 Aug 2019  #177
Zośka (Sophie) was another elite AK battalion who fought hard in the Rising.

Here. Zośka`s soldiers who died in combat fighting against an armoured train.

When I saw these faces on that wall, it occured to me they looked like my students, they were 19-20 years old. So many wonderful boys and girls gave their life for Poland.









Miloslaw 6 | 1,815
3 Aug 2019  #178
Some great posts Pawian.
Obviously not appreciated by some..... but I love them!
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,896
3 Aug 2019  #179
Now, you are getting personal. Don't.

Your choices - fight the Germans or run to the Soviets is too binary. How about doing nothing and saving thousands and the city? Like Prague. Or Gdansk.

I am talking about the decision to have or not have that dumb Uprising made by the suits in London, not what the individual Poles should do. Many other cities were liberated by the Soviets without their uprisings.

The enslavement of Eastern Europe was decided by the Americans as acceptable to the US and nothing was about to change it other than time.
OP pawian 157 | 9,121
3 Aug 2019  #180
but I love them!

Thanks. These are my photos from our multiple trips to Warsaw, my beloved city in Poland. I showed my kids all places referring to the Rising..

E.g, Do you know Warsawians even commemorate the sites where insurgents used city sewers to leave sieged and ruined districts?

PS. Of course, guys, don`t forget my initial question:

Watch and decide it they symbolise the National Disaster or the Triumph of Spirit. One by one.










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