POLISH AND RUSSIAN FRIENDSHIP WILL LAST FOREVER

With apologies to Schroedinger and Mozart - the greatest contribution of Austrians in the twentieth century are Hitler and Red Bull.

Some countries just are not consistent.

I can imagine it's a very difficult situation when it comes to family relations. During WW1 we had Poles in Russian uniforms and German/Austrian uniforms fighting each other, often members of the same family, but it was different; independent Poland didn't exist back then, so we could just consider ourselves to be caught in the whirlwind of history and thrown against our own fighting for opposing superpowers. With Russia and Ukraine it's different - they both have similar culture, languages and history, and one conducts a full scale invasion of the other, leveling cities to the ground and killing civilians... I can only imagine the kind of hatred it sows in people's hearts. Civil (or quasi-civil) wars are always the worst ones.

As for the question of "nonexistence of Russians", it could be argued that from genetic point of view there isn't such thing as a typical Russian (or a Pole for that matter), but people are more than just genes. We are not animals. There is culture, history, language and identity to consider and when we take these factors into account then we must admit that Russians do exist.


Somewhere in Poland in 1961...

- Panie majster! Panie majster! Ruskie w kosmos poleciały!!!
- Wszystkie?
- Eeee... nie, no... tylko jeden.
- To co mi dupę zawracasz, szczeniaku, podaj cegłę.

... ;)

Being sarky once again, Bobko old man?
Some of us might take serious issue here.
Then of course, I trust you weren't serious:-)

If Russians did not exist, Poles would have to invent them. What else could motivate you so much to be better and morally superior?

And the Roman empire lasted a while as well.

However as George Harrison sang, All things must pass.

You have no idea what you're talking about (how can you be so wrong and out of touch so often?):

facebook.com/groups/pomocdlaukrainypl/permalink/781112673243444/

(I can't copy a fragment on my phone, so you'll have to read the whole thing.)


This makes this war just more f*cked up in the eyes of outsiders/observers (like Poles).


Do you talk with him about the war and the situation in Nikolayev?

I would say that people getting mimed, raped, killed etc I considerably worse

I would put it more respectfully, but Russia was indeed for most of its' history indeed hardly comparable to Austria for most of its' history. While Austria held the most prestigious crown in Europe (France and England desired the Imperial Crown, nobody desired to be King of Russia), the Russian King knelt to hordes from the East and desperately wanted to be treated as an equal by the Emperor. While Austria (along with others) defended Europe for centuries from the Ottomans, took the Poles and Swedes turns beating up Russia. Russia only started to step after Eugene of Savoy had broken the might of the Ottomans.

Yes, exactly, I was thinking the same. And a country being destroyed. Rebuilding it will take years and God knows how much money. But it shows how detached from reality Bobko is (and how much he lacks empathy most probably). He seems to view things only from his own perspective. He sits safe and comfortable in New York and his greatest problem is that he can't discuss politics with his cousin... 🙄

Germans are much better as archetypical nemesis - they are more different from us than you and speak an incomprehensible tongue, hence the very name - Niemcy. Of course, we have been allies for about 30 years now, but what's 30 years compared to a millenium of Polish history? :)


There is no such "motivation". Poland compares herself to countries from our cultural circle of Latin civilisation: France, Italy or Spain. When we are in our Slavic mode, we look to Czech Republic or Slovakia for comparisons, or to a wider Intermarium area where there are countries of similar historical experiences to Poland. Comparing Poland to Russia wouldn't make sense... the very idea seems odd. You are just this, on the one hand, dark and ominous force looming somewhere on the horizon and, on the other hand, a country whose music, language and literature speak to us in a strange and fascinating way. I think I said this before, and I would risk a statement that such sentiment is quite common among Poles (as you could see in the video I linked a couple of weeks ago), an average Pole would find it rather difficult to genuinely hate Russia as a country, like a lot of people hated Germany after WW2. There just isn't this level of hostility.

Of course this might change, should Vlad the Conqueror redirect his invading hordes further west, but at the moment that's how it is.

It took some time. Marriage to a relative of the Byzantine emperor did not help the situation as much as we thought it would. Adopting their double-headed eagle also didn't help. In the end, however, everyone recognized the Russian Czar's equivalency to an Emperor. The Austrians were necessarily late, but everyone acknowledged it - a full century before everyone it became the default nomenclature after we defeated Napoleon who dismantled your HRE. Meaning that when everyone recognized us as emperors, the Holy Roman emperor didn't even exist any more. Who won that? Hmmmm?

That one went for a burton too.

We did the right thing in going for soft power instead.

I doubt that r*ssia world be much cop at that. You could have a go though. In a few decades after the dust's settled.

Hopefully not radioactive dust.

@Tacitus, you must also not forget that for centuries, Austria was the buffer state, so to speak, between the Muslim Turks who'd been successfully driven back by the Poles under Jan Sobieski in the 17th century, and Western Christendom.

No surprise therefore that Austria, in particular Vienna, had also served as the sort of Black Market way station right after '45, learning to deal literally with the Allies and the Communists.

Nowhere in my opinion has the "Austrian Dilemma" been so skillfully depicted as in Graham Greene's THE THIRD MAN!

Incidentally, how come you haven't responded to my private posts over the last year or so? Just wondering

Nothing and everything? I'm not telling you, I'm just being helpful becasue you all Russians on this forum seem to be lost. Like you can't asnwer as simple question:

Where is your land of origin? What its borders? What are Russians? What is your history and culture?
You seems to really strugging here.
So, I'm going tell you what I think:
1 there is no Russian ethnicity or a nation. During 18th/19th/20th century whan most of the nations arose, or formed their modern sel awarness on the base of territory, culture, history, ethncity.

You had nothing you had your ruler, his people 'elite', his subjects with diffirend degree of servitute.
What was your culture? One absolute ruler, his subjects, an expanding empire and Ortodox Church as a tool of the empire.
Who could become a Russian - anyone as long as agree to be a slave to the tzar, pretend to be Ortodox and share pride in expansion and empire.

There many ethnicties in today Russia but Russian. Russian can be anyone who is a part of a state.
2 The Great Dutch of Moscow it is your starting point.
You seems to be confused by Kiev, it has nothing to do with you. You don't even speak the same language and never did. Russian is Rus wirtten and read by a Greek and it comes from Ortodox clergy that at one time or the other moved to Moscow from Kiev.

You started calling yourslef Russia at the end of 17th century and it was a kind of terrtorial claim on land of the Rzeczpospolita.
Russian is more similar to Bulgarian that to the old Slavonic that people outside Dutchy of Moscow used long time ago not to Ukrainian.
Your culture - your writers came about at the end of the 18th century, few of them and rather obscure. Before - nothing really.


I don't know? Is that becouse you cann't prove to me that you exist! What you can say? You had opportunity to prove me wrong many times and nothing.

Well, to me it's strange that you sincerely think Latin countries have more in common with Poland than you do with Russia. Curiously, Russians, Poles, and Ukrainians seem to stick together in New York. I'm sure it's not much different in Jakarta, Nairobi or Rio De Janeiro. The Poles don't seem to join their Latin "brothers" from France or Italy with the same frequency, for some very strange reason.

You could say it's just the inherited need for healthy helpings of distilled spirits, compared to those fairy Latin wine drinkers. You could say's it because the only people that can tolerate disco polo are Russians. Really, who knows :)

I read all your posts and what I sense... I sense the victorious would need to rewrite history.

Similar languages, similar levels of tolerance to spirits and similar Slavic souls that come to the surface after the degustation of said spirits. :)


We always had difficult relationship with the French (all in all I think it was a mistake on our part to teach them how to eat with a knife and fork), we are Sarmatians so Italians with their military exploits don't incite enormous respect in us, and Spain is just too far away. But there's no denying that culturally we are a Latin civilisation country (with a genuine Slavic feel on top of that :)).

Bobko?

I remember that name mentioned in news reports:

nytimes.com/2022/06/22/world/europe/ukraine-mykolaiv-russia.html

Aren't you worried that your cousin will get killed?


Not really, Poles compare Poland to all kinds of countries... I see people making comparisons with Spain usually only if it's about the size of the country and GDP or sth like that... My impression is that Poles most often compare Poland vs Germany. I think it's because many Poles went to work there (and so they're able to compare), it's our neighbour (so people can visit it more easily) and because it's "the bestest" in Europe (the most successful country and is associated with quality, etc.). I've got an impression that it's an aspiration of many Poles for Poland to reach the level of Germany's developemnt. There are some comparisons made between Poland and the UK also, since many Poles went to work there too. It's usually the opposite with Russia - it isn't viewed as a role model, but everything that Poles wouldn't want Poland to be.

Lies. Western Europeans have been using Muscovy and Russia interchangeably since the 15th century. When the English established the first chartered overseas trading company, the Muscovy Company, Queen Elizabeth knew she was dealing with the Russian Czar (though she did not recognize his imperial status, and refused his marriage advances).

Hey genius, how do you explain this map from 1525 of RUSSIA:


I only ask him if he's safe, and not doing anything stupid like getting caught by the people issuing conscription notices. He's an idiot, and he's stayed in the city proper to "watch the apartment". I've been telling him to set up camp in the summer house, but he won't listen. His mom is already in Belgium on a refugee permit.

Not a whole lot to discuss TBH.

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A new poll results have just appeared - 94% Poles consider RuSSia a threat. 20 years ago it was 65%. RuSSists are doing a great job. :):):)

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better, doesn't make it true! A French person or a Spanish one really couldn't give a **** about you - you might as well be Romanian, while Russians will always treat you with genuine brotherly curiosity.

We don`t need your fekking curiosity. What we expect of you is to get civilised, stop invading everybody around and live in peace. If you, currently Mongols by character, become civilised, Poles will also view you with brotherly curiosity. Right now, you are fekking barbarians who need to be kept at distance.

Really? There's a war in his country and not a lot to discuss? Did he tell you whether there are any Nazis in Mykolaiv? lol

A quote from the article I linked to:

"Driven out of a nearby village, Natalia Holovenko, 59, was in a line to register for aid when she began sobbing. "We don't have any Nazis here!" she said, a reference to Russian President Vladimir V. Putin's false justification of the war as needed to "de-Nazify" Ukraine. "He just wants to kill us."

In her imploring eyes the madness of this Russian project seemed etched."

And another quote from that article:

'He sees this as a war between cultures - in Russia, the leader says something "and the sheep follow," he said, but in Ukraine, democracy has taken hold. In Mr. Putin's Russia, everything said means the opposite: "protect" means "invade" and "military targets" means "civilians." In Ukraine, Mr. Senkevych said, "we live in reality."'

And an illustration to this quote:

fb.watch/dPcEJaYHcL/

lol

This is how Poles view Russians as a society... Barany... Sheep... Рабы...


Bwahahaha... Sorry, Bobko, but we know that Russian "brotherly" curiosity all too well... Ukrainians know it all to well too... We'd rather you were less "curious" and stayed within your borders.

As an illustration - another quote from that article:

'"It's our 'brother Russians' who do this," said one, Larisa Kryzhanovska. "I don't even hate them, I just pity them."'

They are curious to know how watches, computers, TVs, washing machines and fridges work. That is why they try to collect as many as possible in other countries to study them at home later on. :):):)

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@pawian lol


Btw, I watched a video on YouTube of a woman from Crimea, I think, asking people in the streets of Crimea or Odessa (or both, I don't remember exactly) what they know and think about Poland and Poles and I was surprised how many people with Polish roots live there... I'm sure there's nowhere near as many people with Polish roots in Ukraine as there are with Russian roots, but still - I personally was surprised.

I remembered about this video because of the surnames mentioned in that article: "Mr. Senkevych" (Sienkiewicz), "Kryzhanovska" (Krzyżanowska).

In the 18th century, 900 years after the Emperor in Austria and when the rank of Emperor was losing most of its' prestige. You had Emperors of France, Austria and indeed Russia by that point, later followed by the Emperor of Germany.


Not like you did it all by yourself.


I am fairly certain that it wasn't just the Austrians who were defeated at Austerlitz. ;) Austrian Field Marshall Radetzky developed the plan to defeat Napoleon and Schwarzenberg led the Battle at Leipzig. And Wellington did not say: "Give me night, or give me Kutusov".

@Lyzko
Well said.

All that Russia hating here made me like them more and the Russia haters less. Good job, morons...

I don't know how many morons are here so it's hard for me to say if I am the last one.
If you want to count them, look for "nuke 'em", "Mongols", "tyrant", "RuSS", "Putler", and sh*it like this.
Oh, almost forgot..."Russia is not a country". Yeah, it's just a hole in the ground that managed to be in space ahead of everybody - the US included. They even killed a dog to show off...Those bastards...

Irrelevant.

Belonging to a certain civilisation is not about somebody else giving or not giving a **** about it. It's about a set of rules and a system of values. It's about things like approach to individual freedom, human rights and functioning of state institutions (corruption, rule of law etc.). Poland, since middle ages, remained under the influence of Latin civilization - there was a time when you could travel throughout Poland and communicate with people in Latin (not only with noblemen but also with merchants, artisans and even some peasants). Until partitions Latin was an official tongue in Poland (język urzędowy). The role of catholic church was definitely substantial in that but also dynastic ties with France and Italy, so with time it shaped our culture the way it did. It wasn't for nothing that Stalin called Poland "a Latin thorn in a healthy Slavic body". :)

There has always been this awareness of our civilisational roots among educated classes; that's why any occupant who wanted to root out Polishness always had to strike against Polish intelligentsia (and they did - with a vengence!). During partitions we resisted the attempts at both germanization and russification precisely because we belonged to a different civilisation than either of our oppressors.

These days, unfortunately, Polish intelligentsia is a dying out species. Formal education has become devalued and universities no longer reproduce intelligentsia as a class - they became places where peasants and city dwellers (so, basically, peasants in 2nd or 3rd generation ;)) learn interesting things and get their diplomas and degrees to the joy of their grandparents who didn't have such opportunity. I don't have anything against it, mind you, peasant education is in general a good thing.

Also, what you wrote about there not being a thread of understanding between Poles, the French or Italians is not entirely true. When I was younger I used to travel a lot, thanks to my father who is a generous man, and whenever I was in France or Italy I found it exceedingly easy to mingle and communicate with educated people, and found that we share very similar values and approach to life. But of course you are right that it's different with peasants. So, in your sentence that I quoted, if we replaced "person" with "peasant" or "average citizen", I would tend to agree. And of course you are quite right that a Polish peasant, abroad or at home, is more likely to find this thread of understanding with a Russian peasant with whom he shares a similar language as well as culinary and artistic tastes. :)


Which we indeed appreciate and return the genuine brotherly curiosity, albeit with a certain degree of caution.

You're a bit optimistic there...

Check out a book called Łacina w kulturze polskiej by Aleksander Mikołajczak, Jon. It has very well documented sources and mentions, among other things, diaries of foreign travellers who were shocked that the knowledge of Latin was so widespread in Poland that they were able to communicate almost anywhere during their travels without any knowledge of Polish.