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POLISH AND RUSSIAN FRIENDSHIP WILL LAST FOREVER


Bobko 11 | 1,007
21 May 2022 #181
@Crow

I would like to think that the reason Serbs are pro-Russian in their orientation is because they haven't forgotten about a little thing called loyalty. Serbs don't have to go far back in history to see that Russia supports its friends.

This admirable behavior stands in stark contrast to that of some other characters, like Germany or Greece, for example. Germany repays a once in a lifetime gift of national reunification by taking an absolutely one-sided stance in the current conflict in favor of Ukraine (neutrality would have been nice, nobody expects support). Greece owes its entire existence to a Russian foreign minister of Greek origin, and the blood of thousands of Russian volunteers - yet it also succumbs to Western pressure (perhaps it's the recent experience of bankruptcy that makes them so pliable). This cannot but leave a bad taste in the mouth.
GefreiterKania 11 | 1,477
21 May 2022 #182
the reason Serbs are pro-Russian...

...is that they don't share border with russia, and were never conquered and occupied by it.
RussianAntiPutin 6 | 281
21 May 2022 #183
@Ktos
As far as I know, Poland and Russia loathe one another. Have I been wrong my whole life?
pawian 188 | 17,916
21 May 2022 #184
That's crazy!

Yes. That is why we need to clarify some things. Being anti Putin is one thing. But do tell us more: what do you think of the RuSSian capture of Crimea and eastern region of Ukraine in 2014???
Bobko 11 | 1,007
21 May 2022 #185
????

How come I never get such questions? I would love to answer.
pawian 188 | 17,916
21 May 2022 #186
We already know your answer. :) However, we don`t know our new Russian member`s real opinion.
Bobko 11 | 1,007
22 Jun 2022 #188
Thoughts on Polish-Russian friendship.

1) Both sides point to the example of German rapprochement with France as an example of what could be.

2) Both sides ignore that the context of Russo-Polish relations is totally different than it was in the case of Germany and France. No parallel economic integration, or alliance building. No guiding hand of the United States in ensuring that the mortar of the friendship will set.

3) This means that any positive things are forgotten quickly, while bad ones consistently float back up to the surface. For example, who can remember now the warm atmosphere that reigned during Tusk's visits to Moscow, or Putin's official apology for Molotov-Ribbentrop? If there is no trade, and movement of peoples - goodwill gestures will not stick.

4) Both countries define their national identities to a great degree through the lens of their experience in WW2. Both countries think their experience makes them exceptional. Poland - as a heroic lone sufferer, that paid the ultimate price (polls show 70%+ of Poles think their country has suffered more than any other country in the world historically). Russia - has a cult of victory, as proof that Russia can overcome any challenge regardless of the odds. These two visions of exceptionalism are hardly reconcilable. Dishonoring veterans, to Russians, and discussing "Polish Death Camps" for Poles - are two different sides of the same coin.

5) Both countries think their exceptional experience of WW2 means they are due certain entitlements. For Poles, it means Morawiecki constantly bringing up German reparations, fifty years after Willy Brandt fell to his knees. For Russians, it means Germany has to close its eyes to all that causes it concern, and instead has to trade with us without restriction.

6) To imagine that the problem with Polish-Russian relations is due to Putin, or Kaczynski - is to make a mistake. Them leaving will not change anything.

7) Polish-Ukrainian friendship, long term, opens the door for Polish-Russian friendship.

P.S. What a strange thread title
Crow 153 | 10,768
22 Jun 2022 #189
No guiding hand of the United States in ensuring that the mortar of the friendship will set.

How you people, as by the principle, forget to mention Vatican.

What about guiding hand of Vatican in this? Vatican would always tend to consolidate Catholic front against Russia and Serbs. Having good relations between France and Germany is definitely one of aims. Then also, Vatican have strong lobby in USA. So sometimes acts directly from Rome, and sometimes thru other countries.

On the other side, Vatican would do all possible to keep bad relations between Poland and Russia. Just imagine potential of it for the Vatican and reduction of maneuverable space for Vatican in case of good Polish-Russian relations.
Lenka 3 | 2,765
22 Jun 2022 #190
Polish-Ukrainian friendship, long term, opens the door for Polish-Russian friendship.

Nothing further from the truth. It only brings the memory of being attacked closer.
Crow 153 | 10,768
22 Jun 2022 #191
All is by the plan.
Bobko 11 | 1,007
22 Jun 2022 #192
Nothing further from the truth.

There are millions of family bonds between Ukraine and Russia. In taking in Ukrainians, you are not only taking in hundreds of thousands of ethnic Russians, but also coming into contact with millions of others still in Russia through blood connections. The hope is that inevitably this will lead to a closer understanding, since when the conversations happen in the kitchen, rather than on the TV, people tend to grow a deeper understanding.
Crow 153 | 10,768
22 Jun 2022 #193
When western Europe is no more to dominate Europe, will be better for us Slavs.
Bobko 11 | 1,007
22 Jun 2022 #194
What about guiding hand of Vatican in this?

What about it? As Stalin once said when asked if he should perhaps stop oppressing Catholics in Russia: ""The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"

The Pope has not mattered, ever since Pope Boniface VIII's papal bull, Unam Sanctam, failed to force the French King Phillip the Fair to heel. What happened in that case, is that mercenaries hired by the French king beat the pope to near death (he died several days later), and the papacy moved from Rome to Avignon for quite some time. Since then, few powerful sovereigns care what the Pope in Rome thinks.
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,439
22 Jun 2022 #195
Thoughts on Polish-Russian friendship.

There is no Russian Polish friendship. Never were. The only way it could happen in the distant future:
Russia give up (forced to give up) being big power and their delusions of being some great Russian civilization that stands alone.
To be such a power that holds hands with Germany in France and dominate the whole Eastern Europe, marginalize Poland. Why would Poland meekly agree to that?

through blood connections.

that is some mambo jumbo As if Poland had no blood connection with Ukrainians.
You seems to ingnore that Ukrainie, Belorus and the baltic state with Poland was a one country more or less 400 - 500 years. That is more that the outer fringers of Ukrianie fell into your Muscovites hands.
Bobko 11 | 1,007
22 Jun 2022 #196
As if Poland had no blood connection with Ukrainians

I mean real blood connections between living people. Cousins and nieces living in Russia. Uncles, aunts, grandparents. The level of population mixing between Russia and Ukraine is probably more than between any other two countries on earth, except ones recently split up (Sudan maybe, or Eritrea).

By one count, there are thirty million Ukrainians living in Russia. Some people argue that they form the majority in the Far East.

You don't think it's remarkable that both Velund and I have Ukrainian significant others? This is no dig against Russian women.
Lenka 3 | 2,765
22 Jun 2022 #197
I mean real blood connections between living people.

Those connections are broken because of this conflict too
Bobko 11 | 1,007
22 Jun 2022 #198
@Lenka

Can you break these connections? I know it's bad now. My Ukrainian girlfriend's parents have stopped picking up the calls of their Russian relatives. When I talk to my second cousin in Nikolayev, we don't touch politics at all - otherwise we know we can't call each other for a few weeks until we cool down. This is the absolute worst part of this conflict. What it is doing to families.

I trust that these connections are more strong than any war.
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,439
22 Jun 2022 #199
I mean real blood connections between living people

It means nothing as Russian are everything and anything when it comes to ethnicity. If you go by ancertsors you have plenty of Poles too, Germans, Asians of all sorts and many many others.

I don't get what is that blood connection if all you have is that Russian 'culture' mir or whatvere, which is just a big nothing mixed with primitive imperalism.

There is a clear divide between Ukrainians those that support Ukrainie and those who don't support it or support Russia, if they call themselevs Ukrianians it is a joke. Mostly they say - oh my grandparents where from there, my mum was ukrianian so I half this as well. The hell they are they are Russians ethnically everything and nothing, culturally primitive imperlistic Muscovites, and Russian because citizen of the Russian Federation.

What are you even talking about? Do you even know? Maybe it is another cleaver ruse like we are so connected by blood that it is a civil war and bascally Ukrainine is Russia.

You have been too long around dumb Yankees if you think that would work lol!
Bobko 11 | 1,007
22 Jun 2022 #200
@Cojestdocholery

No tricks, no jokes. Just talking about families. No need to bring in your famous theory of how Russians don't actually exist, but are some mix of Poles, Ukrainians, Germans, and a multitude of Asians.

I was saying that becoming close with Ukrainians might make you closer to us. That's all.
jon357 71 | 20,468
22 Jun 2022 #201
Some people argue that they form the majority in the Far East.

Perhaps they should have self determination.

The region could be added to Ukraine when post-war r*ssia is divided by the victorious Ukrainians.
Bobko 11 | 1,007
22 Jun 2022 #202
@jon357

It's one of two regions they really want. They want the Kuban, which they think was unfairly annexed from the Cossacks, and they want the Pacific shoreline because they think it belongs to them through their majority there. Conveniently, this leaves us with only an exit to the Baltic Sea and Arctic Ocean.
jon357 71 | 20,468
22 Jun 2022 #203
this leaves us with only an exit to the Baltic Sea and Arctic Ocean.

Do you need more?

Or why not be landlocked? It suits Austria well. They're a former land empire too.
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,439
22 Jun 2022 #204
I was saying that becoming close with Ukrainians might make you closer to us. That's all.

The problem is in the mind not in the body or blood. It is a question of mentality, culture and cvilisation.

Russians

They don't! At best you can say you are Muscovite.
Bobko 11 | 1,007
22 Jun 2022 #205
At best you can say you are Muscovite.

Ok smartass - explain to me what the hell this would mean? What does it mean if I tell you I am a "Muscovite"?

The most logical answer would be "an ethnic Russian living within the territorial jurisdiction of the former Grand Duchy of Muscovy". What does it make the people living inside? RUSSIAN!
RussianAntiPutin 6 | 281
22 Jun 2022 #206
@Cojestdocholery
Russians don't exist! Of course not! There is no ethnic Muscovite. Russian. Like someone from Petersburg or Chelyabinsk or Rostov-on-Don. Why do you deny the existence of Russians?!
Bobko 11 | 1,007
22 Jun 2022 #207
Or why not be landlocked? It suits Austria well. They're a former land empire too.

Comparing Austria to Russia, is as we say in Russia, to compare an ******* (sphincter) to a finger. When Austria was trying to elevate itself to the level of Archduchy, Russia was already a kingdom of many centuries under the control of a legendary dynasty. Our princesses married French and Danish kings, meanwhile they groveled before the Bavarians on their knees.

While they were building their dysfunction of an HRE we were building a unitary state of durable power.

While they needed the entirety of Europe to stop the Ottomans, we wiped the floor with the Turks single handedly - so much so the Brits and French decided they need to help the Turks.

Their famous diplomat, Metternich, was good at negotiations with Napoleon, on the back of Russian manpower.

When they lost their place to the Germans, we took note, and carried on to be one of the two superpowers of the twentieth century.

Comparing Austria and Russia, is almost like comparing Ukraine and Russia. Hahahahah.

BTW, forget the Turks - did I mention we stopped the Mongols, and then defeated them and digested them? So much for Austria as the "Shield of Europe".
Lyzko 33 | 8,166
22 Jun 2022 #208
@Bobko, I figure you're only being sarcastic in your latest post.
Putin's no Metternich, and Lavrov's sure no Gentz, so let's not kid ourselves.
Bobko 11 | 1,007
22 Jun 2022 #209
@Lyzko

... and what you think Austria's history can be compared against Russia's global history? Let's leave the conquest of space and the atom outside the brackets here.
Lyzko 33 | 8,166
22 Jun 2022 #210
Ahemm, Boltzmann, Schroedinger along with many other Austrians helped usher in the atomic age, for better or worse!

And where would the entire field of genetics be without Gregor Mendel? Don't blame him 'cuz Adolf got his grimy mitts all over that area and began preaching the Gospel according to Dummkoepfe LOL


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