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Not proud of my Polish heritage


Bogznami 1 | 7
17 Sep 2018 #1
As far as I know, everyone in my family lineage is from Poland. Specifically, we are from southern Poland in the region between Zakopane and Krakow.

As I got older I began to get curious about my history. I wanted to see my lineage and where I came from to help me better understand who I am. What I have found has been underwhelming at best and disappointing at worst.

Since I was not able to trace my family genealogy very far, my attention quickly turned to examining the entire nation of Poland instead. From my personal investigation into the history of Poland, I have found very little to be proud of. There are almost no national heroes of Poland. There are almost no Poles who contributed significantly to the world in terms of science or culture. No, Copernicus was NOT Polish so don't even start with that garbage because you just make desperate fools of yourselves claiming he was. Most of Polish history is interpreted by me as rather pathetic. I perceive us as a people who are not able to build society ourselves. We are followers. If we want to approach something of success we have to take direction from others. Even at the height of Poland's power, Poland had to import Germanic people and Jews to help the economy run. The ethnic Poles at this time were simple farmers or craftsmen...none of us possessed the ability to truly drive the economy. We count on the favors of others, specifically the Germans, English, and the United States to help us get through every issue. There are so many examples of Polish leaders begging for handouts or favors that is makes me so sick. Even the establishment of Poland seems like it was granted to us, and not that we went and fought for it and secured it for ourselves. All of Polish mentality is always to emigrate from Poland to Germany, England, or the United States to live a better life because we can't build Poland into what we want it to be. I question if we even have the imagination to know what we want Poland to be. It is all seriously pathetic.

I'm not trying to hate Polish people. I just don't see where the pride comes from. I instead see a bunch of arrogant morons who are in denial. The hatred many Poles have of Germans is purely as a result of our envy of them for being more capable and more successful. Germanic achievements and industriousness are like a mountain compared to Poland's. Nobody wants to see Poland succeed more than me. Believe me. But we need to start by being honest with ourselves.

I'm not expecting any fruitful discussion here. I know what it's like trying to reason with Poles since I am one and my entire family is Polish. It is very frustrating trying to get anything accomplished. There are some exceptions, but most Polish I know are eternally stubborn, stupid, and lack the courage to be honest. Conversations with them are just circular reasoning. They will never admit to being wrong, they fail to see the big picture, and they go off on tangents instead of addressing the core arguments. I have met other self hating Poles in the past and I didn't understand why until now. It really really pains me to say the stuff I am saying but I feel I have to say it because I feel it is the truth.

Even today, I don't see anything promising for the future of Poland. Poland is still a welfare state of the EU. We are once again begging the EU for money and begging the United States for military protection against Russia. When will it end?

Does anyone agree with me here? How do you guys perceive our history? What is responsible for our shortcoming? What do you see when you look toward the future?
Miloslaw 12 | 3,351
17 Sep 2018 #2
I don't believe you are Polish.
If you are American just research your revolution till you come up with a very famous Polish name that helped you gain independence. ....
OP Bogznami 1 | 7
17 Sep 2018 #3
I am, Miloslaw.

Yes, I am aware of Pulaski and Kosciuszko. They helped. This thread isn't about 1 or 2 contributions, it is about the overall history and ability of Poles.

Can you try to understand my point please.
Miloslaw 12 | 3,351
17 Sep 2018 #4
What is your point?
You just seem to be slagging off Poland and Polish people.
Poland has had a difficult history and has survived with it's language,customs and culture intact.
I think that alone is worthy of praise......but you prefer to insult and belittle us....
OP Bogznami 1 | 7
17 Sep 2018 #5
Every nation has difficulty. Every peoples has to overcome harship. Some peoples overcome by innovation that solves their problems and makes the world a better place. I see nothing but difficulty in Poland's history. I see a failure to adapt and improvise by the Polish people; they have always been lagging far behind. I see failure to prosper. I am comparing us to other world powers and wondering what it is in our gene pool that makes us less successful than them. Sure, it is worthy of praise that Polish people were able to get through storms and survive intact with their language and culture. But, as I said every people has that obstacle. Nations like Germany, Italy, and England not only got through their hardships, but they then prospered.

I don't prefer to insult and belittle. I am only being honest in what I see. What I prefer is that Poland develop into something I can be genuinely be proud of.

Can you please try to understand my point? I feel you are already making tangential arguments instead of addressing the core of the issue.
mafketis 29 | 10,332
17 Sep 2018 #6
Even today, I don't see anything promising for the future of Poland.

Have you ever actually set foot in the country? The changes over the last 20 years are so are fairly amazing, not all positive but more positive than negative by a long shot. And staring down the USSR for 45 years and having the USSR blink first is an amazing historical accomplishment - a massive societal change without a single drop of blood (as much as that disappoints some here)

I am comparing us to other world powers

Dumb idea, compare it to other countries in the region and it's doing very well, not perfect but pretty well.

I prefer is that Poland develop into something I can be genuinely be proud of.

What would make you proud?
Lyzko 32 | 7,931
17 Sep 2018 #7
Bogznami,

Be proud of your heritage, what ever its stripe! Thank heavens you have one:-)
OP Bogznami 1 | 7
17 Sep 2018 #8
@mafketis

I have visited Poland 3 times. 2 times in the late 1990's and then again in 2016. There has certainly been an improvement. No doubt this has been due partly to Polish people's hard work, but there is also a significant portion of EU welfare money being poured into Poland that these improvements could be attributed to. The Polish industries I have seen that have been growing have been due to foreign investments, and not due to Polish innovation.

It is not a dumb idea to compare us to world powers. It is a legitimate observation and question.

What would make me proud would be if Polish people could establish a self-sustaining economy that leads the world in at least 1 category, or at least manufacturing base where they export finely engineering products to the world like Germany does. I would like to see Polish youth without goals of moving out of god-forsaken Poland to live a better life in another country. I would like to see an end to the conversations among all Polish people about the multiple benefits of moving to another country to live a better life because Poland provides them the best life possible. I would like to see Poland shed itself of it's Jewish political leaders and ethnic Poles fill their positions and do excellent work leading the country. Things of that sort. Do you understand my point yet?

Can you also address the historical shortcoming in my original post?
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,159
17 Sep 2018 #9
I don't believe you are Polish.

He made a number of statements for us to read, agree, disagree and comment. Your beliefs are irrelevant.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
17 Sep 2018 #10
I would like to see Poland shed itself of it's Jewish political leaders

Please, name those Jewish political leaders.
Miloslaw 12 | 3,351
17 Sep 2018 #11
Call me paranoid if you want but this guy's English is appalling.....it's not his first language.
Another troll?
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,159
17 Sep 2018 #12
You are a paranoid a-hole. So far (1) he is not Polish, (2) his English is appalling, (3) English is not his first language, (4) he is a troll, (5) he must prove he can write in Polish before the Polish Thought Gestapo is happy.
Miloslaw 12 | 3,351
17 Sep 2018 #13
All trolls need to stick together,right?
OP Bogznami 1 | 7
17 Sep 2018 #14
@delphiandomine

Mateusz Morawiecki - Jewish Roots
Andrzej Duda - Married into Jewish family

There are others. I will have to get back to you with a list of more but I have looked into this in the past and the list was prominent.

Poland has very overall Jewish behavior as well. Jews will not shut up about compensation from Germanic countries for the Holocaust. Poland similarly has been in a non-stop guilt trip of Germany for the last 2 decades seeking financial compensation for WWII. So much of Poland's history gives me the impression of a victim complex and begging for handouts and favors. This example with Germany is just history repeating itself. I would like to see Poland lift itself up by itself. Such a movement requires leadership and I am afraid it seems the Poles lack individuals that have the capacity to lead Poland into a state of self-sufficiency. Rather, we are going to our usual cheapshot tactic of asking for handouts and favors. It makes me sick.
Miloslaw 12 | 3,351
17 Sep 2018 #15
Amazing that you have done so much research into Polish Jews and yet can't think of a worthy Pole.....go away you dumb,lazy troll.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
17 Sep 2018 #16
I will have to get back to you with a list of more but I have looked into this in the past and the list was prominent.

Keep going. If you can produce their real Jewish names, it will be helpful.
OP Bogznami 1 | 7
17 Sep 2018 #17
As I said in my original post, I am not expecting a fruitful discussion.

This thread is quickly becoming exemplary of what it is like trying to engage in productive dialogue with Poles. There is failure to stay on topic, failure to address the core issues, tangential arguments, no intellectual honesty, and just overall stupidity.

Thank you Rich for trying. Hopefully others will step in that can stay on point.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,159
17 Sep 2018 #18
All trolls need to stick together,right?

The Polish Thought Patrol was first at the scene with that moronic "I don't believe you are Polish" crap. That's trolling at its very worst, as it is meant just to put the guy on the defensive. Right from the start. Not even hi, welcome to the forum.

Any comments about what he wrote? No way, because the Polish Gestapo is too stupid to engage on points. Always on what does not matter because it's easier.
Miloslaw 12 | 3,351
17 Sep 2018 #19
And The KGB,or their current equivalent are so stupid they don't see how moronic their posts are..... :-)
Like I said,why don't you have a troll to troll conversation. ....you can get his contact details via Moscow HQ.
Ironside 51 | 11,510
17 Sep 2018 #20
From my personal investigation into the history of Poland, I have found very little to be proud of.

Must be due to the fact that you are not very good at it. IF you would do some research you wouldn't be talking such a nonsense. It only betrays your complete ignorance of the subject. I cannot take you seriously.

By the way. Why would you want to feel proud about somebody else's achievements? Regardless of accomplishments of many Polish people, it is not something you have done. Be proud of your own achievements, if there is anything to be proud of.

If not, don't. Trying to claims glory or laurels of some people that have little do with you for yourself is simply pathetic.
OP Bogznami 1 | 7
18 Sep 2018 #21
The achievements of Poles absolutely pale in comparison to Western nations. You may find a small handful of accomplishments, but it is nothing compared to what the Russians, Italians, French, Spanish, and all of the Germanic countries have done. Yet people from these nations are relatively humble. Polish people are the proudest, and yet have the least to be proud of. I have heard many excuses for our shortcoming...our geographic location between Germany and Russia, no natural barriers to keep enemies out, the Nazis, 50 years of communism, Russia and Germany again, the English betrayed us, no access to sea ports, etc.

I have reviewed as many Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica articles about Poland as my time permits. I have actively sought out as many Polish contributions and famous Poles as I could find. I really wanted to find several things I could hold onto and be happy I came from this stock of people. As I have said I have found very little, comparatively speaking, to be proud of. When I lived in Chicago there were so many arrogantly proud Poles and yet I could never figure out what they were basing their pride on. Being boastful and "proud" without any substantive achievements is not pride, it is arrogance...and arrogance is not a virtue.

Perhaps I just need to come to terms with the fact that the historical account of our people is just an honest reflection of our capabilities. No excuses. In addition, many people in our gene pool for whatever reasons just possess all these undesirable characteristics of being stupid, stubborn, and are unable to face reality. Our survival mechanism is to simply beg for favors and handouts from the more responsible and successful nations. We have to beg them to give us land, money, protection, and to permit us to exist. If they don't want to give us what we are begging for then we resort to behaving even more child-like, begging harder, or start guilt-tripping them. Eventually they may pity us enough to finally help us out because they know we can't do it ourselves. The trade off is that we don't get true respect and get treated like pawns in their games.

I have many things to personally be proud of, but I also have to acknowledge that I only achieved these things because I live in America which is a creation of the Germanic peoples. It was primarily these people who built up such an amazing society with such an advanced framework, infrastructure, wealth, and so many possibilities and then graciously shared their creation by allowing everyone to immigrate here. Had I been born and raised in Poland I would not be able to live the life I have because the Polish nation could not afford me these possibilities. That is why there is such an enormous diaspora of Poles. They go where there are opportunities already made for them because they cannot build a society that creates those opportunities for themselves. I would at a minimum like to see these diaspora Poles as humble, respectful, and grateful for the opportunities instead of being arrogant, causing crime, stealing cars, etc.

I look at Germany as an example and it really just makes me feel terrible. Germany is such a finely tuned machine. The German people are individualistic but are still capable of cooperating together to achieve great goals. Germans also all seem to have an internal moral compass where they live by very good moral standards. They generally do the right thing, they help others out, they are willing to carry the burden of being the wallet of the EU, and their culture is much more developed. The Polish people truly are backwards in comparison but no Pole wants to hear that because they don't have the strength and honesty to face the truth. They are more interested in being immature and making excuses than getting serious about fulfilling their potential.

I have a feeling that many Poles reading this know exactly what I am talking about. I have a feeling there are many Poles who have the same wishes as me of seeing Poland take its fate into its own hands and become an admirable nation. It will not happen by sitting and dreaming. We must do. I wonder if there are already some groups in Poland who get together and form a think-tank about ideas on how to build up Poland. I would seriously consider moving back to Poland and joining such a group. Despite living my whole life in America, I can't help but feel like I am a guest here.

I contrast two early 20th century leading figures of Poland, Pulsudski and Dmowski.

Pilsudski, who wasn't even an ethnic Pole, became the leader of Poland in the 1920's. This is another example of the failure of Poles. We simply cannot produce a leader from our own ranks and have to rely on outside help for everything. Pilsudski, not being an ethnic Pole himself, envisioned the reestablishment of yet another commonwealth of nations where Poland played a leading role. This is very telling what he though of the Poles...he didn't believe in their capability to establish something on their own, and yet the stupid Poles supported him.

Dmowski, on the other hand, was an ethnic Pole and believed in his people. He wanted a sovereign and successful homogenous nation built up and maintained by the Poles. But yet again the Poles display their failure out in the open because they didn't believe in themselves, nor in Dmowski', and he never garnered enough support to became the leader of Poland despite his patriotism and capabilities.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,159
18 Sep 2018 #22
Your posts are as perfect as one would expect to find in an op-ed of a major newspaper. Are you a professional writer? This forum can use your kind of talent to express your thoughts so methodically and in perfect English. If you see any criticism, it's envy.
OP Bogznami 1 | 7
18 Sep 2018 #23
I'm not sure if you're being serious, Rich.

I don't think there is anything special about my writing. No I am not a writer. I work in healthcare and am in school for a mathematics degree.

But if your comment in sincere, then thanks.

Perhaps you can share your thoughts on some of my observations.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,159
18 Sep 2018 #24
I'm not sure if you're being serious, Rich.

I am. Stick around and you will know what I mean.

Perhaps you can share your thoughts on some of my observations.

I will tomorrow.
mafketis 29 | 10,332
18 Sep 2018 #25
I would like to see Poland shed itself of it's Jewish political leaders and ethnic Poles fill their position

Okay, you're a kremlin troll (leading sooner or later up to the need to ally with the pariah leper state of Russia)

"Ethnic Pole" and "Jewish" are not discrete categories (the way "Ethnic Russian" and "Jewish" are). There's always been some overlap.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
18 Sep 2018 #26
Okay, you're a kremlin troll (leading sooner or later up to the need to ally with the pariah leper state of Russia)

It's interesting to see how they go about these things, isn't it? The way that the forum is used to push a certain narrative (Piłsudski wasn't Polish, Poland is dependent on the EU/USA, political leaders are all Jewish, etc etc) that isn't necessarily pro-Russia, but the whole object is to push propaganda that leads Poland away from the current path.

Perhaps the OP can be so kind as to provide these claims in written Polish. Until then, not a word should be taken seriously.
mafketis 29 | 10,332
18 Sep 2018 #27
the whole object is to push propaganda that leads Poland away from the current path

I'm not happy about all of the current path either, and paranoid insistence on determining who is and isn't "really" Polish seems very in line with the PiS modus operandi. And their destructive and paranoid attempts to rewrite the history of the early and late 1980s are doing tremendous damage - young people in their 20s know nothing of the communist period.
Atch 16 | 3,419
18 Sep 2018 #28
I have reviewed as many Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica articles about Poland as my time permits.

Maybe you should try reading a book - now there's a radical idea.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,535
18 Sep 2018 #29
paranoid insistence on determining who is and isn't "really" Polish seems very in line with the PiS modus operandi

Indeed, this kind of paranoia can still be observed among certain (mostly older) people, but it has never been the PiS modus operandi. Anti-Jewish or anti-German phobias are of course present among some of PiS members and supporters, but it has never been the official or unofficial party line. Both the twin brothers, the late president Lech Kaczyński and today's omnipotent eminence grise of the present Polish government, the party leader Jarosław Kaczyński, have never been (were) anti-semitic or anti-Jewish and the same can be said of the majority of the leading figures within the PiS party.

their destructive and paranoid attempts to rewrite the history of the early and late 1980s are doing tremendous damage

With this I can agree. For someone who did live in Poland at that time, these attempts are indeed ridiculous and purely satirical. But PiS also tries to re-write certan elements of the history of the WW2 which refers to the question of the resistance movement (ruch oporu). Virtually no attention is given to the Home Army (Armia Krajowa) these days which reminds me of the official line of the communist propaganda under PRL which typically used to neglect the very existence of the Home Army during the war in Poland, promoting instead the communist Armia Ludowa. The so-called "żołnierze wyklęci" who fought after the end of the war against the Soviet "liberators" (or the new occupants of Poland) are heavily promoted now.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,159
18 Sep 2018 #30
Perhaps the OP can be so kind as to provide these claims in written Polish. Until then, not a word should be taken seriously.

How about that and his DNA, criminal record, proof of citizenship, and his last blood, urine and stool tests. Don't forget his work references. And his FBI file.

You and the "Kremlin troll" a-holes are really something else. Your sense of self-importance is just another form of mental disorder and should be treated like any other mental disorder, but it does not entitle you to what is clearly none of your f***** business.

And the idea that the "Kremlin trolls" would select this forum with merely a dozen posters to spread Kremlin propaganda is so off-the-chart ridiculous that my cat would be too embarrassed to suggest it. You and the rest of the Polish Gestapo are not worth the effort.

Please keep to the topic, everyone


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