If any PF anti-Semites, pro-Semites and those who avoid antagonising Jews for fear of reprisals could for a moment rise above their inclinations and step back to try and see the bigger picture, I'm sure many would agree that Poles would be better off trying to be more like Jews. We all know that Poles have harmed Jews over the ages and Jews have harmed Poles, and all neighbouring nations have trespassed against each other over the ages, but that's not the point.
For the purpose of this discussion the point is that every nation has been given (by God, blind fate, whatever) certain attributes: geography, climate, natural resources, religious values, intellect, physical stamina, etc. At the same time, they have encountered various forms of natural (disasters) or man-made (wars, occupation, exile, etc.) adversities. A nation can ultimately be judged by how well it made use of its assets to cope with the historical vicissitudes it has encountered.
In those terms, the Jewish nation should get the highest grades! The fact that such a numerically small nation has even survived down to the present borders on the miraculous.
Poles complain of being deprived of statehood for 123 years (partitions) and 50 years in the 20th century, but Jewish enslavement is measured not in years but millennia. They did not regained independent statehood until after World War Two.
Forced into exile by militarily and/or numerically superior nations (Babylonians, Egyptians, Europeans), they nonetheless survived by maintaining their sense of being exceptional (the chosen people) and developing their intellect. Often prohibited from owning land, they made a livelihood with their minds and hands as advisers, bankers and artisans. Since the Church forbade Catholics lending money on interest (usury), that job fell to Jews and gave them wealth and influence. Polish kings and aristocrats hired Jews as financial advisers and tax collectors, and nobles leased breweries and inns to them.
Poles have often complained that Jews felt little attachment to Poland, but that was because Poland (like any other country) was simply the place they happened to be born. Until 1947 Jewishness was a stateless state of mind. Jews were thought of as cowards in imperial Russia and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Perhaps the bespsctacled, neurotic NY Jew as personified by Woody Allen characters reflects of that stereotype.
But nobody nowadays would anyone call Israeli troops or Mossad a bunch of pussies! Diaspora was simply not conclusive to the development of a freedom-fighter mentality.
One can call it clannishness or solidarity, but the fact was that Jews have been known to stick together, either in shtetls by choice, in ghettoes by force or through ethno-religious loyalty wherever they live. That is probably the main adhesive that has glued all their other assets together. Poles by contrast seem to go overboard in the opposite direction -- finding fault with and back-stabbing their own compatriots.
I admit I personally feel resentful about what I sometimes see as Jewish pushiness and exclusivist, including various anti-Polish attitudes. Yes, they have stepped on other people's toes and practice a form of Jewish 'firstism', but that too is part and parcel of their overall survival strategy. And it has worked. How many nations could lose half their number wiped out by Hitler only to bounce back and command the wealth, power and influence they do today?
Nice text. But I couldn't comment, as I'm no Pole and don't know Poles well enough although I live here. One thing I see however, is how passive they can be when it comes to changing things in their native country. They will just run away abroad in search of a better life, then criticize Poland remotely. Probably a consequence of communist culture where everything sorts of "comes from above", and the feeling of being powerless as a consequence.
The people will do as the people will do. They enjoy free will now so whatever direction they take is largely in their own hands. Besides, I don't like the word 'should'. Why should they mould to the conception of others?
So why are you telling poles to emulate Jews? Are you saying the Polish nation is inferior to Israel? Now thats patriotism. Sorry I don't think the Israelis are superior in any way. All they have done is create a bunch of wars with Iran. If I was a Polka I would kick your arse. It sounds like a Jewish conspiracy to me so that they can control Poland to carry out whatever they are cooking up.
Could we not talk about Summer topics.... outdoor drinking in Warsaw... where to sit in the shade and not melt these days.... But please not yet another dreary same-subject topic :(
There are other threads for that and not all of us live in Warsaw ;) ;)
I don't see the motivation of posters here. Almost everyone I meet in Gliwice doesn't discuss the Jewish question. They let sleeping dogs lie and have their own standards to meet.
No their not, you are just one yourself and thats why you think that. No one but another Jew would agree with you.
It's hard to believe you're actually able to think after I read these two posts. Israel hasn't ever had a war against Iran, though they are about to start one. Actually, the Persian empire was quite friendly and open to Jews back in the day, in comparison to the Greek empire or the Roman one.
I meant that Israel has caused the US to have to go to war with Iran we have no choice. They may not be fighting the wars, but they caused them. I think they very well may be the underground cause of all of the muslim terrorism 9/11 and such.
Allison: It sounds like a Jewish conspiracy
Now that's a topic you and Seanus can have lots of fun with.
I meant that Israel has caused the US to have to go to war with Iran
When? I do understand what you are trying to get at, but you're talking about things that don't exist (yet).
Actually, the US didn't need Israel to start wars in the past. The US seems to love wars, even those they can't win. In fact, they seem to prefer that kind.
I doubt it ... I have "antisemitic " feeling only if Jews act like they are overlords. i I think (then) : why disappeard wonderful times when jews were only innkeepers, and were going really fast after " Piwa ale szybko bo brodę będziem rwać" command.
Am I antisemitic MC??
I don't really care, but keep on posting. It makes for lots of lulz.
I don`t know what you find lolish in my posts, but here you are
We should emulate humanity. We are all the same genetically except one percent, that's only superficial traits like eye and hair color, skin color, body and facial shapes, thickness of hair. Genetically, there is no such thing as race. Like it or not, human beings are all pretty much the same so get over yourselves ffs. Life is too short to spend it pissed off at everyone else!
Try telling that to the US administration ;) ;) ;)
Jews just operate differently. They are generally highly successful in what they do and should be respected for that. The Poles are constantly rising in the drinking stats so maybe they should be respected for that too ;0 ;0
Genetically, there is no such thing as race. Like it or not, human beings are all pretty much the same so get over yourselves ffs. Life is too short to spend it pissed off at everyone else!
True, true.
They are generally highly successful in what they do and should be respected for that. The Poles are constantly rising in the drinking stats so maybe they should be respected for that too ;0 ;0
Exactly. Poles are good at drinking and other things. Jews are bad at drinking ,but 180 nobel prizes have been Jews.
Polonius3 assumes erroneously that the "nationhoods" of Poles and Jews are similar enough for the former to benefit from emulating the latter. Poles have been a multi-ethnic multi-denominational nation since the pagan Polanie tribe began incorporating surrounding peoples. Judaism is a religion which has adherents amongst many nations and to which the members of any nation may convert.
Polonius3 is not advocating the conversion of Polish Gentiles to Judaism (presumably no one would be caddish enough to come onto a Polish discussion forum and tell the male Gentiles of Poland to mutilate their genitals) but he is advocating that the Poles emulate the Jews in developing their intellect. However developing one's intellect was never the exclusive purview of the Jews. In the context of the intellectual development of Poland we see that Polish Jews founded yeshivas and honed their intellect on the interpretation and disputation of their bronze age Torah and its various commentaries, but it was Non-Jewish Poles who founded the venerable Universities at Krakow and elsewhere in the Poland, and these were places devoted to universal learning rather than the merely theological variety, thus when it comes to truly valuable intellectual development Polish Gentiles have their own models to emulate and they don't need Jewish ones.
Emulating Jewish nepotism and usury are plainly horrible suggestions, as is taking Poland down the racist ethno-centric path that the "Jewish State" in Palestine is on, and as for that entity's soldiers they are indeed pussies. They wear so much gear that they look like scared clowns when they go about enforcing their Jewish supremacy upon the Non-Jewish natives. Poles shouldn't emulate Jews, but the Arabs of Palestine should follow the Polish trajectory which will lead to their liberation in a multi-ethnic state where people of all religions have citizenship and equal rights.
Emulating Jewish nepotism and usury are plainly horrible suggestions,
Most of the world is like this, not just Jews.
as is taking Poland down the racist ethno-centric path
Poland and Israel do not have much in common. Jewish zionsts advocated for the birth of the Jewish nation in a turbulant land where it once stood thousands of years ago. Poles never left Poland only to return thousands of years later to establish their own nation. The situations are entirely different.
We should emulate humanity. We are all the same genetically except one percent, that's only superficial traits like eye and hair color, skin color, body and facial shapes, thickness of hair. Genetically, there is no such thing as race. Like it or not, human beings are all pretty much the same so get over yourselves ffs. Life is too short to spend it pissed off at everyone else!
Not only developing the intellect, although that is an important facet. When the poor East European immigrants flocked to America in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, there were Poles, Hungarians, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Jews and others amongst them. Typically, they would send their kids to work (in factories, retail shops, laundries, mines, abattoirs, steelworks, etc.) as soon as they turned 16 to bring the family extra cash. Only the Jews would do without to send the most intelligent, diligent and enterprising of their sons to rabbinical school or college. Above all, however, it would be good for Poles to learn from the example of Jewish solidarity -- to help one another get ahead, rejoice at the success of compatriots and be ready to defend their ethnic kinsmen against outside attacks.
Jews may argue amongst themselves but usually present a solid front to the outside world.
Polonius, what you propose doesn't make sense. Jews are characterized by their strong attachment to their culture (not religion), and their "stick together at all costs, **** everyone else" mentality. Poles do not have these characteristics. It's not a good or bad thing, they just don't have them. You can't emulate a culture, and you can't artificially weave one, they progress as they will.
Not only that, but the Jewish mindset is a bunch of crap. Looking after just those people who are of the same ethnicity and culture is a disgraceful way to live, no matter how many rednecks think otherwise. Polish people, for all their apparent racism, just don't have it in them to be this way. That's a good thing.
Lastly, Jews have the intellectual, financial and economic strength to rely on eachother. Poles do not. Becoming an insular society would be just as disastrous to Poland as it would be to any nation.
Are you opposed to people learning from other cultures? Everybody talks about globalism, well doesn't that mean sharing different values? If Poles could simply learn to stop bickering over nonsense and pull together, they would acheive much more.
And if they would attach more importance to true education rather than making a quick quid in the UK as dish-washers and nannies, then maybe Poland wouldn't be near the bottom of the list in terms of patented inventions. Look at the number of patents obtained by Israelis and American Jewry.
People can change. When circumstances changed and Jews finally had their own statehood), the cowardly Jew of eastern Europe became the tough as nails commando. Under communism Poles had an excuse that their intiaitve was beign squelched and they couldn't spread their wings. Then communism, collapsed, the counttry was free so what did it do: it sold most of its assets to foreign captialists and developed a trivial non-creative copycat culture.
I was waiting to see where this discussion is going, before I jump in, but it's not going anywhere. People are just repeating their opinions for or against "The Jews". Nothing interesting yet.
Polonius, what reactions did you expect from your idea?
I'd say that the Jewish question is far more exigent now than ever before. Poland will have a bridge of its own to cross in addressing belligerent Belarus but that pales away in comparison when cast alongside the need to keep Turkey onside. Turkey provides Israel with essential supplies and revenue from tourism. Their heavy-handed actions in international waters (I'm not saying they were wholly at fault at all) provoked a reaction from a NATO country. Poland should not try and emulate those that breach international law with impunity. Understanding of Israel's predicament is important to understand their reactions but it is by no means a hapless plight for them. They have much more firepower than those around them and are backed up by a loyal servant in America. Poland, well, it's only now beginning to feel that it can trust some of its neighbours and, even then, it's a tentative balance.
Poles should promote more what they have and what they have done rather than seeking to emulate anyone. Play to its strengths if you will :) :)
Ho-hum. Sorry folks, I don't find this of interest. What am I doing on this subject I don't know already. Better have a (salty?) coffee at vaginacafe.pl
All they have done is create a bunch of wars with Iran.
Hm, as far as I can remember there hasn't been an open war between Iran and Israël. And for your information: most of the wars the Israeli had weren't started by them.
It sounds like a Jewish conspiracy to me so that they can control Poland to carry out whatever they are cooking up.
Why do so many ppl here think that Israël regards PL as so important that they want to control it by all means? I don't think the average Israeli cares more about PL than the average Pole cares about Israël.
But to address the topic: If the Poles are to emulate a ppl, I think the only ppl they should emulate is themselves. They have their own strengths and weaknesses and there's the point to start. Not from some other ppl.
