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Poles should emulate Jews?


Borewicz
16 Mar 2015 #61
So, you're referring to Jewish people where exactly? In America, in Western Europe, in Eastern Europe?

How can you compare any people, when you haven't taken into account history, politics, outside mitigating factors.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Mar 2015 #62
Everywhere and always. Obviously if someone is doomed to total extermination as was the case under Hitler, only a very few managed to survive. But given half a chance Jews will outperform most other nations. Jews constitute a very tiny nation on the world stage -- a mere 15 million or so. Ever consider the percentage of scientists, musicians, writers, scholars, politicians, entertainers, etc. they have produced?
TheOther 5 | 3,711
17 Mar 2015 #63
Ever consider the percentage of scientists, musicians, writers, scholars, politicians, entertainers, etc. they have produced?

Isn't that mainly dependent on the environment in which people (not only Jewish) are raised? A person growing up in a crime-ridden favela in Brasil is much less likely to become a famous scientist than an equally talented person from - say - Martha's Vineyard (just a random example for a ghetto of the rich and famous).
jon357 67 | 16,836
17 Mar 2015 #64
Poles should emulate Jews?

Should people who are both of those things emulate themselves?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
17 Mar 2015 #65
"Emulaiton" was the title of the thread I started several years ago and by some force majeure it got merged with the latest one. There is a difference. A call to emulation is an appeal, the latest thread deals solely with dispassionate analysis which could be an interesting intellectual exercise. The latter thread is in the spirit of Realpolitik -- objective assessment of effectiveness, the "survive and thrive" theme, totally devoid of any ethical or aesthetic considerations. For example, Stalin was a worse monster than Hitler in terms of his victims' body count, but in terms of Realpolitik he was by far the superior despot. (BTW that too could be an interesting subject for discussion but would have to be off-topic.)
jon357 67 | 16,836
17 Mar 2015 #66
the "survive and thrive" theme

Now that's something the Poles have traditionally had to be good at. Both of those things.

For example, Stalin was a worse monster than Hitler in terms of his victims' body count, but in terms of Realpolitik he was by far the superior despot

Both of them tyrants, both of them hated people who fitted the two ethnic descriptions in the thread title :-(
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
17 Mar 2015 #67
The thread title is the moderator's doing or maybe the e-system has been programmed, configured, digitised or shmigitised into auto-merging similar-sounding threads.The current thread was conceived as purely an anylatical comparison, so the disorientating title merger was completely beyond the author's control. If the moderator cannot be prevailed upon to restore the proposed title of the current thread, then posters are advised to repeat three times before posting: THIS IS ABOUT ANALYSIS, NOT EMULATION!

True, but even in a Brazilian favela or an American black ghetto a few stand out. The norm is to drop out of school, get involved in gangs, guns and drugs, being and out of jail, etc. But every so often someone will break out of that mould. Sometimes crossing the path of a inspiring teacher, coach, youth counsellor, clergyman, etc. together with personal ambition to achieve a better life. That can be viewed as a microcosm of a country or nation. Some nations fare better than others, because they have received a better set of givens but also because they display more drive, determination and and ambition. The point is making the most of available opportunities.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
18 Mar 2015 #68
Some nations fare better than others

On the long run, the quality of the school system and the loving support of a child by his/her family is probably even more important than genes, although intelligence seems to be inherited to a large extent.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
18 Mar 2015 #69
But both can be impartially dissected and analysed without any reference to morality. and only in terms of the effectiveness with which they pursued and achieved the goals they had set.
Barney 15 | 1,476
18 Mar 2015 #70
All populations start with an identical spread of characteristics including intelligence, Intelligence cannot be measured those suggesting it can need to demonstrate how. People are born the same and should be treated the same.

Creating some artificial measure to rank people is unscientific irreligious and fascist.
Szalawa 3 | 248
19 Mar 2015 #71
A person growing up in a crime-ridden favela in Brasil is much less likely to become a famous scientist than an equally talented person from

Well yes such situations don't permit people to go on developing ways to better humanity, they have other things to worry about, but the question is why certain areas develop into such hell holes, is it cultural or economical? maybe a bit of both. what determines the cultural and economic success of an area? should be its resources and technology (we can say this is the environment), now what determines how people put to use these resources and technology? maybe intelligence, that being knowledge one has inherited from past generations... Now is this intelligence due to internal (genetics) or external (exposure to knowledge throughout life) factors? well it is a bit of both, one who is never exposed to such knowledge can not possible know certain things, while one who is exposed but does not have the capacity to comprehend could not possibly learn... In this way intelligence is heritable depending on both genetic and environmental factors, which I would say, internal and external factors acting together.

Some nations fare better than others, because they have received a better set of givens but also because they display more drive, determination and and ambition. The point is making the most of available opportunities.

Yes

On the long run, the quality of the school system and the loving support of a child by his/her family is probably even more important than genes, although intelligence seems to be inherited to a large extent.

I'd say equally important, probably a unique case for every person.

I don't think we are all cookie cutters Barney, it's not that simple, but I can partially agree. Nothing is out of the question for science, but

are there ethical issues, probably yes.

Comparing Polish and Jewish success levels?

Can you explain in what context, as an ethnicity? in terms of material wealth, knowledge, population numbers? etc. Or did you want a list depicting all factors, which I can say would require intensive research.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
19 Mar 2015 #72
In terms of taking advantage of the givens a nation is endowed with. A nation of 15 million worldwide (Jews) cannot compare with some 50 million Polish people (including the diaspora) in terms of population or land area, but they can be compared in terms of Nobel Prizes, registered patents, PhDs, the number of millionaires, successful scientists, musicians and cultural personalities, ability to influence the economies, media, cultures and societies of other countries to mention but a few areas of comparison.
Barney 15 | 1,476
20 Mar 2015 #73
I don't think we are all cookie cutters Barney

I'm not sure what that means, my point is that creating some arbitrary yard stick to measure people or nations is nonsense.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
20 Mar 2015 #74
I agree, Barney. There are too many factors that determine the success or failure over someone's lifetime. Your family, your nutrition, your education, the neighborhood you grow up in, the country you were born in, ... . In the end it might be simple luck that determines whether you are top or flop.
bullfrog 6 | 603
20 Mar 2015 #75
A person growing up in a crime-ridden favela in Brasil is much less likely to become a famous scientist than an equally talented person from - say - Martha's Vineyard (just a random example for a ghetto of the rich and famous).

I don't think that's correct otherwise Switzerland, one of the world's richest countries would top the tables (at least on a prorata to inhabiatnts basis). It is true that A Einstein was working in Zürich when he produced the theory of relativity but apart from that and the cuckoo clock I am not sure that the Swiss are responsible for many breakthroughs.. I agree with Polonius, and believe that the key reasons for the success of the Jewish "nation" is the perpetual challenge and sense of insecurity which came with them not having , until recently, a country of their own.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
20 Mar 2015 #76
Einstein was working in Zürich

Well, if that would mean anything: Einstein was German before he became a Swiss and later an American citizen.

Switzerland has never been a large, highly industrialized nation like GB, F or D for example, so maybe ground breaking innovation wasn't as necessary (from an economic perspective) as in other countries. Also, could it be that the population of Switzerland is statistically not big enough to produce a significant number of Nobel prize winners? The large number of Jewish winners is in my opinion based on the fact that they almost all came from nations with large populations, comparatively good school systems and societies that value innovation and knowledge.
Crow 146 | 9,112
20 Mar 2015 #77
Poles should emulate Jews?

Why? What for should Poles emulate Jews, for the sake of dear Christ and even dearest Svetovid?
Nickidewbear 23 | 584
27 Mar 2015 #78
For the sake of dear Messiah....well, there's why.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Mar 2015 #79
There are multiple variables. Luck plays a role as does timing. If something had occurred a year or even a month earlier or later, the entire course of events could have changed.
Crow 146 | 9,112
27 Mar 2015 #80
For the sake of dear Messiah....well, there's why.

You point on Christian-Jewish common religious/cultural roots? If so then you are right. It puts us in related cultural context. Still, not the same. i like to underline Svetovid because it is something specific.
Nickidewbear 23 | 584
27 Mar 2015 #81
I don't think that Svetovid can overcome Jesus by any stretch.
Crow 146 | 9,112
27 Mar 2015 #82
i agree. Can`t. i don`t know for any historical example of mass killings of people in the name of Svetovid
Nickidewbear 23 | 584
27 Mar 2015 #83
All of those killings were under Svetovid's influence, though:

"They roused Him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations did they provoke Him. They sacrificed unto demons, no-gods, gods that they knew not, new gods that came up of late, which your fathers dreaded not. "

Everyone keep to the topic please.
Crow 146 | 9,112
27 Mar 2015 #84
i don`t follow. i admit. What then Messiah have with Jesus influenced by Svetovid? Why would Poles emulate Jews for the sake of Messiah, as you said? Jewish Messiah?
Nickidewbear 23 | 584
28 Mar 2015 #85
I'm saying that Svetovid and other demons influenced others to do mass murders, etc. in Jesus' Name, and thus blaspheme the Name.
Marsupial - | 886
28 Mar 2015 #86
Poland should emulate the things from other.cultures that are winning recipies to be used with.our own ideas. Whatever they may be. This mix makes a unique polish way.in any case. I am a fan of that. I don't see the.jewish.culture offering much to the mix at the moment for people to emulate and absorb and.from the old.days I see even less. Maybe circumcision? I always secretly wanted to be missing a part of my knob.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
28 Mar 2015 #87
Agreed. Every country can profit by adopting the achievements of other nations. Not everything but those things which could improve a nation's self-image and sense of self-worth. Poles would do well to abandon their disinterested envy and display more of the Jewish group solidarity.
Yuri Andropov
29 Mar 2015 #88
I think Jews are overrepresented in Polish media. They have minor influence on Poland and there is barely any Jew in Poland. Poles should be Poles. Country is turning into regional leader. Economically doing better every year. Look where is for example Ukraine now and where Poland. Poland also managed to overtake Hungary. Warsaw is looking like small New York. Generally Poland is doing quite good. If anything I would follow Israel-is strength of the army. Poland is much bigger and powerful country than Israel with also harsh history. If tiny Israel can have nukes-why not Poland?
Levi_BR 6 | 219
29 Mar 2015 #89
"Country is turning into regional leader. Economically doing better every year. Look where is for example Ukraine now and where Poland. Poland also managed to overtake Hungary"

I Agree with that part... But i disagree with that part:

"Poland is much bigger and powerful country than Israel with also harsh history. If tiny Israel can have nukes-why not Poland?"

Poland have NATO. Nato is the strongest alliance that had ever existed in human HISTORY.

Putin is just a barking dog that bullies Ukraine because they are alone. He will never, i will repeat, NEVER mess with a Nato member.

Instead of invest in Nukes Poland should invest in high-techonology, like South Korea.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
29 Mar 2015 #90
Country is turning into regional leader. Economically doing better every year.

Okay, then explain this: uatoday.tv/society/41-of-young-poles-plan-to-emigrate-despite-strong-polish-economic-performance-417077.html


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