Strange coz I know everything about the Polish Ukrainian relations and everybody involved.
Clearly you do not, if you cannot tell a Rusyn apart from a Ukrainian.
Poles should apologise to Ukrainians first
Clearly you do not, if you cannot tell a Rusyn apart from a Ukrainian.
Bratwurst Boy 10 | 12869
24 Jul 2023 #62
As far as I understand the definitions it would depend on the intent
Yeah...that's what I was told about it too.
Is the murder made during wiping out a whole people because of their race or is it happening during a war, a civil war or another violent controversy! Even murdering civilians isn't automatically a genocide, "only" a war crime.
Today in Germany we remember the "Operation Gomorrah", eight days and nights of allied air raids which killed about 37.000 civilians and destroyed Hamburg....still, no genocide!
What do we know about it.
you (proverbial) suggest that eveyone is guilty so in the end nobody is gulity.
Anyways nobody wants some stupid apologies.
Yes?
here comes. It connected to Ortodox Eastern religion, after fall of the Byzantium Constantinople center of the religion was to be either in Kiev or Moscow, Greek clergy dominated there, after much infighing, the head man run off to Moscow given better terms, from there he claim to be in charge both Kiev and Moscow as a religious leader.
That claim give a leg to semi-legal claims for people and land to the Grand Duke of Moscow, that at this stage named himself Tsar of whole Russia i.e. all people and lands that are Ortodox no matter if they like it or not. (Some version of Ruski Mir).
Rus in Greek Ortodox clergy terminology was connected with the ortodox religion not with the people.
Hope it helps.
coz I know everything about the Polish Ukrainian relations
Libicki? Is that you? Get lost!
because Polish bishops gave an example of such apology once.
and some people will never forgive them for that.... some people don't want peace, they want eternal bickering over the past....
GefreiterKania 34 | 1493
24 Jul 2023 #65
Most people here know that I have a personal connection to Volhyn... does that make me biased? Perhaps. Anyway, of all the stories I heard from Volhyn survivors or read about, there is one in particular that sticks with me and doesn't want to leave my memory (I don't think it ever will):
... a typical story. Ukrainians slaughtering a Polish multi-generational (as it used to be in the countryside) family. A boy manages to hide. He can't see what's going on but can hear everything. He hears his family's agony. He hears his little brother being bestially tortured and eventually begging the Ukrainians to kill him next to his mommy.
I just can't f*ckin forget it... a four-year-old boy... realised that they are now going to kill him and asked to be killed next to his mamusia. They murder him like they murdered everyone else.
Today in Poland we have people who want to apologise first. To apologise to those who still glorify UPA, build their monuments, hang their portraits in their offices and name stadiums after them. They want to do it because in Middle Ages "Polish colonisation of Ukraine" started and lasted for centuries. The people to whom they want to apologise very often blindly refuse to acknowledge the genocide or even lie about it. We had an example of this when prime minister Morawiecki went to one of the villages, or rather to a place when one of the slaughtered villages used to be (Puźniki). Ukrainian media wrote that Polish prime minister visited the place of Soviet war crimes.
Judge it for yourselves.
I will write nothing more on the matter, for fear that my conversation with certain members here might turn overly acrimonious; and anyway the likelihood of people changing their minds - one way or another - is rather slim. Judge it for yourselves.
... a typical story. Ukrainians slaughtering a Polish multi-generational (as it used to be in the countryside) family. A boy manages to hide. He can't see what's going on but can hear everything. He hears his family's agony. He hears his little brother being bestially tortured and eventually begging the Ukrainians to kill him next to his mommy.
I just can't f*ckin forget it... a four-year-old boy... realised that they are now going to kill him and asked to be killed next to his mamusia. They murder him like they murdered everyone else.
Today in Poland we have people who want to apologise first. To apologise to those who still glorify UPA, build their monuments, hang their portraits in their offices and name stadiums after them. They want to do it because in Middle Ages "Polish colonisation of Ukraine" started and lasted for centuries. The people to whom they want to apologise very often blindly refuse to acknowledge the genocide or even lie about it. We had an example of this when prime minister Morawiecki went to one of the villages, or rather to a place when one of the slaughtered villages used to be (Puźniki). Ukrainian media wrote that Polish prime minister visited the place of Soviet war crimes.
Judge it for yourselves.
I will write nothing more on the matter, for fear that my conversation with certain members here might turn overly acrimonious; and anyway the likelihood of people changing their minds - one way or another - is rather slim. Judge it for yourselves.
because Polish bishops gave an example of such apology once.
and some people will never forgive them for that..
and some people will never forgive them for that..
Yes, as I said, it was a shock, both for communists and their supporters, and normal Poles, believers and non believers.
Ukrainian media wrote that Polish prime minister visited the place of Soviet war crimes.
Insufferable asses.
It's like... either you exist or you don't. When it is convenient to them, they were born in 1991 - virgin and unsullied. Then, when something else comes up, they are as ancient as Methuselah.
... a typical story. Ukrainians slaughtering a Polish multi-generational (as it used to be in the countryside) family
You are mentioning a slaughteri of Poles by Ukrainians in 20th century. But the same things were done by Poles to Ukrainians over centuries. The only difference is that Volhynia massacre is very well documented while Polish crimes from the past not so much.
Stop playing that sentimental tune coz it is false. Slaughter was on both sides and Poles, as a more mature and older nation than Ukrainians should apologise as first.
Simple.
I will write nothing more on the matter, for fear that my conversation
Don`t be silly.
Bratwurst Boy 10 | 12869
24 Jul 2023 #69
and Poles, as a more mature and older nation than Ukrainians should apologise as first.
....or.....as Iron said so wisely, just let it go...for awhile at least!
Maybe that apology is something for later generations, when that wound has been closed by time and history abit more....
Frankly I wonder about these bishops and their apology too....I wonder if there is something more to that story....
....or.....as Iron said so wisely, just let it go...for awhile at least!
No, we won`t fekking let it go .If Germans were able to apologise to Poles, now it is the Polish turn to apologise to Ukrainians.
wound has been closed by time and history abit more...
The wounds have been closed coz 70 years have passed. Morons troubled by amnesia and intent on playing the eternal tune of Polish victimhood are expecting Ukrainian apology for the years 1940s, disregarding everything which had happened in the East in 1000 -1939.
just let it go
The issue here is a fact that Ukrainian gov did not let exhumation of the victims to proceed.
That is a problem not some dumb apologies or anything else,
Bratwurst Boy 10 | 12869
24 Jul 2023 #72
....okay....I admit I know not enough about that topic and I better shut up.
*walks out of thread*
*walks out of thread*
I admit I know not enough about that topic
Don't let him fool you BB. He is a typical leftie moron with they stupid trope, selling BS and relativity . He doesn't really know anything.
relativity . He doesn't really know anything
You contradict yourself now. If I deal with relativity, I have to know what the theory of relativity consists in, don`t I?? Ha!! I got you now!
I have to say, this thread has made me quite uncomfortable in the end.
It's already strange enough to read Korvinus write he has a small itch to help the Russians, after reading Pawian's post. Stranger still, to see Ironside and Paulina be uncomfortable about the writings of that idiot apologist. Strange, because this is my job.
The strangest thing, and which makes me feel slightly nauseous, is that I am finding myself defending Poles. I think I need to take a break - Pawian finally found how to deactivate me.
It's already strange enough to read Korvinus write he has a small itch to help the Russians, after reading Pawian's post. Stranger still, to see Ironside and Paulina be uncomfortable about the writings of that idiot apologist. Strange, because this is my job.
The strangest thing, and which makes me feel slightly nauseous, is that I am finding myself defending Poles. I think I need to take a break - Pawian finally found how to deactivate me.
@Bobko
You don't lack a sense of humor.
You don't lack a sense of humor.
is that I am finding myself defending Poles.
Coz your aim is always to harm Ukrainians. :):)
Not true. If you read all my posts from 02/24/2022 to now, you will see nobody on this forum was more committed to avoiding harm to Ukrainians - stupid, miserable people that they are.
you will see nobody on this forum was more committed to avoiding harm to Ukrainians
You forgot me and my Z-P=0...meaning that dying for zero is stupid.
Dying for another guy's "freedom and democracy" is even stupider... For some weird reason, Poles love it.
Ukrainians - stupid, miserable people that they are.
After all, according to your narrative, Ukraine does not exist and everyone who lives there is russian......"stupid, miserable people that they are"....
You forgot me
I apologize. Somehow, miraculously, you managed to perceive this clusterf*ck exactly for what it was. So... besides Novichok, I was definitely reading this thing correctly all this time, without any excessive bloodthirst.
Ukraine does not exist
They exist, in as much as the glass of whisky on my table exists. But in a wider sense, they do not exist at all - this is true - because they are us. Final motion in this dance - because they are us, we will never hurt them like you hurt the Jews, Russians, Poles, Gypsies under your occupation. I love Ukraine in a way, that a Pole who hosted a Ukrainian family for 15 months cannot even approach. This is exactly the reason why you should abstract away from this issue ASAP.
we will never hurt them
I'm about to burst out laughing.
because they are us
That`s the Russian narrative which Ukrainians have been combating since.... no, not 2014. Since around 1918 when they took pains to create their own state independent of Poland or Soviet Russia.
And now you know perfectly well that Russians and Ukrainians will not be brothers again. Not at least for the next 50 years. How long did it take Poles and Germans to reconcile after WW2? Exactly 50 years plus.
I'm about to burst out laughing.
Laugh all you want. 99%+ of Ukrainian dead are military.
Hey, we are wandering off topic. This is about Polish apology, not Ukrainian identity.
off topic
Not necessarily, because in order to apologize to someone, you must first make sure that they exist at all
you must first make sure that they exist at all
We aren`t in philosophy class, learning about Berkeley`s subjective idealism etc. :):):) This is a simple thread about two nations who exist and have a problem with reconciliation.
To Russia, Ukrainians are brothers. To the warmongers in DC and London, Ukrainians are useful idiots or simply tools.
No joke - this makes me depressed.
But then some French guy said, "All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."
Some other smart guy said that "Civil wars are the worst, because they pit brother against brother".
Go figure. I am not equipped to understand, all I understand is that civil wars are especially nasty, and despite all brotherhood the savagery becomes much more intense than when fighting a stranger.
To Russia, Ukrainians are brothers.
I really hope you are an only child if that is your perceptions of brotherly feelings.
Poland, the Baltics, Ukraine, Hungary, and other Eastern sane countries should recognize the existential threat slithering from the woke LGBT West, join forces, drop the EU, and NATO, and erect the best fence money can buy to keep Muslim and other foreign poison out. Germany is beyond repair.
That's what Dirk would say and I would agree with it.
That's what Dirk would say and I would agree with it.