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History of two Neighbors: Poland - Germany Interrelations


Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,191
27 Nov 2022 #211
Germany's minister of defenece'

German help is a joke. They talk about it a lot but help as little as they can. Their promises are worthless. It was just propaganda BS and PiS just played tit for tat here. Good at least sometime they happen do do something right.
Joker 3 | 2,323
27 Nov 2022 #212
They talk about it a lot but help as little as they can.

Look no further as they absconded from paying their NATO obligations. The Germans are weasels all talk no action. They always make slippery deals and are not to be trusted.
Lyzko 45 | 9,409
27 Nov 2022 #213
@Joker,
The present Scholz administration may well be long on talk, as you suggest, but don't let's for one moment think that hesitance in moving forward necessarily means unwillingness to act!

Scholz is a Merkelian at heart and often mistakes long gestation periods of considering for "pragmatism".

Germans in mainstream politics often seem skittish and deathly afraid of jumping the gun.
pawian 222 | 24,365
27 Nov 2022 #214
Germany's minister of defenece's statement

Germans want to give Patriots to Poland, not Ukraine. PiS ritard azholes refuse to accept them because of their ridiculous antiGerman phobias.

German help is a joke.

Any idiot who says it is a joke himself. :):):)

Their promises are worthless.

What a nice example of antiGerman phobia! :):):)
gumishu 13 | 6,140
27 Nov 2022 #215
Germans want to give Patriots to Poland,

first of all we don't need Patriots at the moment since Russia is not waging war on us - for Germans it was an empty gesture that would not cost them anything while there is unsettled question of billions in reparations - Germany is also (not so openly unfortunately) hostile to the current government

anyway your (German) narration that German Patriots cannot be given to Ukraine was refuted by no other than the NATO secretary general
pawian 222 | 24,365
27 Nov 2022 #216
first of all we don't need Patriots at the moment since Russia is not waging war on us

How about the war starting tomorrow?? Will you feel comfortable with your hand in the full potty???

for Germans it was an empty gesture

Prove it.

unsettled question of billions in reparations

buhahahaha Those ritards are really incorrigible. :):):):):) Reparations and reparations ad nauseam.
Miloslaw 19 | 4,904
27 Nov 2022 #217
Germans are weasels all talk no action.

I think you are right.
Germans cannot be trusted.
GefreiterKania 36 | 1,397
28 Nov 2022 #218
while there is unsettled question of billions in reparations

Even if we put the question of reparations aside (as it probably should be done), there is also the issue of blocking the EU funds for Poland under phony excuses.

Of course, PiS have only themselves to blame, as they idiotically agreed to the conditionality mechanism, but these issues are much more pressing and should be settled first to show the good will of Germany and willingness to realistically help Poland. The millions of Ukrainian refugees that Poland accepted apparently don't count as much as the German desire to enable government change in Poland. That's what makes the entire Patriot batteries issue seem secondary and insincere.

Maybe, after the elections, the current opposition leaders will be able to clear this mess. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
gumishu 13 | 6,140
28 Nov 2022 #219
How about the war starting tomorrow??

Russians run out of tanks, ammo, rockets etc etc in Ukraine and you envision a Russian war with NATO - think again
Tacitus 2 | 1,379
28 Nov 2022 #220
locking the EU funds for Poland under phony excuses.

Let us be very clear here. This is not an issue the EU vs Poland or Germany vs Poland but the Polish government vs the Polish people. Undermining the rule of law like PiS intents is not going to be helpful to anyone but their intentions to stay in power.

Everybody with some understanding of democracy knows that PiS reforms are dangerous. Hence nobody outside of Hungary and its' wannabe dictator is willing to side with PiS with them. Even your other neighbours, including your Visegrad allies don't think it is a good idea.
GefreiterKania 36 | 1,397
28 Nov 2022 #221
Undermining the rule of law

Nonsense. I explained it here on numerous occasions.

Brussels has no business meddling in a member state's judiciary, and the solutions that PiS proposed are analogous to German judicial system. As I said, phony excuses and an attempt to hostile forcing of government change. It doesn't look good, Tacitus. Doesn't look good at all.
jon357 74 | 22,024
28 Nov 2022 #222
not going to be helpful to anyone but their intentions to stay in power.

They'll lose next time regardless of that. It's a contributing factor but a small one. A bigger one is that their margin of victory is small (tiny for the presidential election) and smaller than the number of their eldely core voters who have died off since the last election. Without 500+ they'd be long gone.

the rule of law l

It's a problem but not a huge one. The rule of law is important, however any law can be changed. Important that each country has its own system that is devised for its own needs and of course there is no reason for systems to be identical or even similar to those of others.

PiS reforms are dangerous

Some certainly, however it is unlikely that PiS' successors will be as close to Orban.
Tacitus 2 | 1,379
28 Nov 2022 #223
no business meddling in a member state's judiciary

Wrong. The EU Comission is responsible for controlling if the member states are adhering to the treaties. Poland signed up to respecting the rule of law, thus Bruessels is fully authorized to take action, which the European Court of Justice has also confirmed.

analogous to German judicial system.

I think I have pointed out several times that this is not true. If not then in short: If PiS agreed to increase the majority needed to confirm judges to 2/3 of the parliament, and having the Senate approve every 2nd judge, then this would be true. If PiS still insists on enabling themselves to appoint all judges with a slim parliament majority and no input from the opposition, then no, it is far from the German system and still very dangerous for Poland's rule of law.

It's a problem but not a huge one.

I disagree. Many such steps taken, if unopposed, can hollow out any democratic system. It is important to act now before more damage is done. Orban did what PiS probably dreamed about, the EU did too little too late and now we have a de facto autocrat who is getting bribes by Russia and China. That PiS was chiefly responsible for letting Orban get away with this is another matter.

there is no reason for systems to be identical or even similar

They don't need to be identical, but they ought to be similar in the sense that they uphold basic requirements for a democracy like the rule of law.

Allowing a government to select their supreme court judges without any input from other parties is a terrible idea and hardly justfiable except for the need of the government to gain more power.
jon357 74 | 22,024
28 Nov 2022 #224
can hollow out any democratic system

One issue is that democracy comes in many forms and all (like any ideal) are flawed.

Poles need to find their own way of doing things rather than cling to the ghosts of other countries' systems which don't work in those countries either.

As for the EU; there's no reason whatsoever for its members to move closer to federalism rather than maintain, develop their own diverging systems. It's a trading bloc and nothing else, rather than a political entity.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,815
28 Nov 2022 #225
It's a trading bloc and nothing else, rather than a political entity.

That keeps us weak and perfect targets for every bigger predator....everybody for it's own is for Europe in a globalized world just not an option!

An England alone...a Scotland alone....a Wales alone....you would never had become an Empire nor would GB play any bigger role in the world today. A unified Europe would be more than a match for Putin et al! We wouldn't need a foreign saviour/guardian anymore...
GefreiterKania 36 | 1,397
28 Nov 2022 #226
Poland signed up to respecting the rule of law

How is the rule of law violated in Poland? Which treaty was broken? As far as I know the infringement procedure against Poland was about the functioning of the new disciplinary regime for judges (the Disciplinary Chamber of the Supreme Court) and not about the way of appointing Constitutional Tribunal judges. In any case, in Poland Polish law takes precedence over laws coming from Brussels (just as it is in Germany, isn't it?), so the treaties will have to be adjusted/renegotiated or revoked altogether. Polish law must take precedence over Brussels law or we are not an independent country anymore.

the majority needed to confirm judges to 2/3 of the parliament

'Analogus' doesn't mean 'the same' - it means similar or comparable in certain respects. The differences stem from the fact that Poland, as opposed to Germany, never conducted a verification of post-communist judges and it led to enormous pathologies within the judicial system. To cut the long story short, any reform of corrupt judiciary would be impossible without new, not entangled in old mafia-like structures, Constitutional Tribunal. Hence the way the judges were appointed. What looks from the outside like creating an autocratic system is merely an attempt at much needed reform of the judicial system. It's difficult because the rot was allowed to spread for too long.
gumishu 13 | 6,140
28 Nov 2022 #227
@Tacitus

maybe I am wrong but what I heard is that there is no definition on rule of law in the European treaties and if ECJ rules anything about it it would mean it is creating law not interpeting it or applying it (which means we are no longer in a democracy but in juristocracy) - not so long ago the current United States Supreme Court overturned the long established ruling of the Supreme Court on abortion (Roe vs Wade) argumenting that the previous ruling was an excess of power (since in the tripartition of powers courts are supposed to apply the law not to create it)
jon357 74 | 22,024
28 Nov 2022 #228
That keeps us weak

Can it not make us all stronger?

An England alone...a Scotland alone....a Wales alone.

The UK isn't a trading bloc; it's a personal and political union since Scotland asked to join with England in 1801. Wales is different; it was conquered the old fashioned way centuries before, however respecting (usually) the Welsh way of doing things has meant it wasn't simply assimilated into being a region or couple of regions. It's remained a country and a proud one, as Poland should and has cause to be.

ou would never had become an Empire

We would, and were well on the way to becoming one long before 1801. Though the role of Scots in developing the empire (especially Malawi and settling NZ and Canada) was strong, in part due to lack of resources at home.

But does the EU want to become an empire now? The age of empires is long dead and rightly so. And would Poland want to be a part of someone's empire, whether it's called empire, sphere of influence, lebensraum, russky mir or backyard. I doubt it, and would prefer to see Poland be Poland, for all its faults and strengths.

I doubt an EU would be a match for Putler, not least because the two dominant economies in the EU either were or are sympathetic to appeasement. I opposed Brexit, however even before there was always the question about what the EU should be. A trading bloc of fully independent countries is what it is, however there are those who would wish it to develop in another direction, largely for less than altruistic reasons.

China is the main threat now; one to resist rather than sniff out short-term commercial opportunities in.
Lenka 5 | 3,451
28 Nov 2022 #229
As far as I am aware in UK as well as USA judges create law through their rulings.
jon357 74 | 22,024
28 Nov 2022 #230
in UK as well as USA judges create law

Yes. Most English-speaking countries have that system based on common law and case law. Much older (and IMHO much fairer more effective) than the code-based system in most of mainland Europe (inc Italy, Germany, Poland and r*SSia) which is based on French reforms made during the regime of the tyrant Napoleon.

Each of those have their own code, and no reason that they should be the same.
Lyzko 45 | 9,409
28 Nov 2022 #231
Correct, jon!
Continental law is Napoleonic and the American concept of "interpretive" amendments to the national Constitution is essentially foreign to non-Common Law thinking.
pawian 222 | 24,365
28 Nov 2022 #232
Brussels has no business meddling in a member state's judiciary,

That`s your private opinion which many Poles don`t agree with. And they are all so happy that the EU is blocking PiS` deforms.

the solutions that PiS proposed are analogous to German judicial system

Stop lying. What got into you again? :):) It is amassing you are spreading PiS ritard propaganda here.

Read this article debunking PiS` lies and manipulations concerning differences between German and Polish judiciary systems.

an attempt to hostile forcing of government change

Stop those stinking lies. When exactly did it happen??

As for your words "an attempt at much needed reform of the judicial system.", it is another bs coz PiS doesn`t want to reform the system, they want to introduce such regulations which would allow them to control the judiciary and make them rule as PiS demands.

Kania, are you again feeling left at a loose end coz you are talking like crazy??? :):):)
Lyzko 45 | 9,409
28 Nov 2022 #233
@GefreiterKania,
Like it or not, Brussels is for all intents and purposes the capital of Europe, being the primary impetus of the Euro, after all.
gumishu 13 | 6,140
28 Nov 2022 #234
regulations which would allow them to control the judiciary and make them rule as PiS demands.

this is your private opinion (of course you are entitled to have your own opinions however unbased in reality and hysterical they are)
pawian 222 | 24,365
28 Nov 2022 #235
however unbased in reality

Really? So why is PiS persecuting judges and prosecutors who openly critisized PiS for its gangster reforms and infringing on the independence of the judiciary? Those persecuted ones are not old commies, but young or middle aged people whose only fault is they have a different opinion than PiS.
Tacitus 2 | 1,379
28 Nov 2022 #236
It's a trading bloc

The EU was always more than that. The idea to share coal and steel in order to prevent future wars was a deeply political one and without the deep conviction behind its founding fathers, the EU would not have become one of the few unambigiously forces for good in the world.

adjusted/renegotiated or revoked altogether.

European law trumps national law. It is Poland that will have to make adjustmends down the line.Or eventually be forced to leave the EU.

regime of the tyrant Napoleon.

It is actually based on Roman law that predates the Common Law (which also drew inspiration from it). The Code Civil waa an important addition, but Roman law as foundation had been used for centuries before that.

verification of post-communist judges

How can this be an argument for reforming the judiciary more than 30 years after the communist regime fell? Hardly any judge who is still active can have been appointed before 1989, and why would it be justified to dismiss him if he was as long as he has not broken the law with his rulings?
jon357 74 | 22,024
28 Nov 2022 #237
The EU was always more than that.

No. It is economic. Nothing more, despite the power-crazy self-seeking intentions of certain now-discredited and compromised members.

Or eventually be forced to leave the EU.

Easy to do, and no bad thing.

It is actually based on Roman law

No, it was introduced by French imperialists.

And BTW, Common Law has its origins in pre-Roman times. There are elements (there were more before 1974) that derive from extremely old tribal law. It has evolved very slowly and carefully over a very long time, one reason taht the majority of the developed world use it or systems that derive from it.
Miloslaw 19 | 4,904
28 Nov 2022 #238
@jon357

Great post Jon.

Tacitus can be a bit of an ignorant windbag at times and needs people like you to take the wind out of his sails.
GefreiterKania 36 | 1,397
29 Nov 2022 #239
When exactly did it happen? (...) many Poles

Not "did happen" but "has been happening". Ever since the leftard EU "elites" decided that it would be a good idea to "starve" Poland, as Frau Katarina Barley - Vizepräsidentin des Europäischen Parlaments, so charmingly said. And, of course, the lies concerning Poland have been spread with the help of local useful idiots. :)

European law trumps national law.

German Federal Constitutional Court would beg to differ, nicht wahr? :)

more than 30 years after the communist regime fell

You're so naive, Tacitus, it's almost charming. Almost.

If it was so easy to get rid of mafia-like structures, just by waiting for the mafiosos to retire, there would be no active mafias in the world left. :) They would all just retire and all mafias disappear after 30 years or so. :)

As for Poland being forced to leave the EU under the leftard pressure, well... it might happen. Quite likely. Whether it will be beneficial for either Poland or the EU is a completely different matter altogether.
pawian 222 | 24,365
29 Nov 2022 #240
the lies concerning Poland

No, darling, you are lying like a rabid ritard now. I asked you a question : when and where did Germans attempt to force a hostile government change??

As for Poland being forced to leave the EU

And that is why I consider ritards harmful azholes who are ready to destroy Poland in the name of their petty phobias. You are one of them.

mafia-like structures it struggles the most with at the moment is PiS

Yes, quite true. We talked a lot about it in various threads.


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