The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 199

History of two Neighbors: Poland - Germany Interrelations


Tacitus 2 | 1,032
1 Mar 2019 #31
The sad thing is, you probably really believe this nonsense. You have politicians in your party who are openly antisemitic, are against rememberance of the Holocaust, the Zebtralrat der Juden is warning against voting for the AfD yet you claim that it is really the other parties who are against jews...
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
1 Mar 2019 #32
Frankly I don't understand this Zentralrat anymore...where is he when Germany votes with Israel's enemies against Israel in the UN? Why doesn't he say something about the massive arm sales to Israel's enemies.

And now the lateste gaffe by Steinmeier, congratulating an arch enemy of Israel in the name of the german people..but hey, the AfD is the problem here, suuure!

If deeds count more than words than most of Germany's mainstream parties don't look good....big sunday speeches at the holocaust remembrance day not withstanding.
Tacitus 2 | 1,032
1 Mar 2019 #33
Why doesn't he say something about the massive arm sales to Israel's enemies.

And to whom would this be? Egypt and SA have become de facto allies of Israel against Iran.

lateste gaffe

"Gaffes" like this are so common among the AfD that only the more egregious get attention nowadays. We are talking about a party that has open antisemites in their ranks, and seeks to undermine the rememberance of the Holocaust in Germany. This is far more concerning and pressing for the Zentralrat than some criticism towards Israel (which many of them share). It also helps that Merkel has been a staunch ally of Israel throughout her time as chancellor.

The AfD only cares about the jews (and LBGT, and women and so on) for as long as they can use them as an argument against the radical islam. Once that "threat" were eliminated, they would be next in line.

If deeds count more than words

Indeed. And considering that the AfD failed to expel people like Gedeon and Höcke, their claims that they are concerned for the jews do not look very plausible. Well, they are plausible for people who desperately want to believe them to calm their conscious, but not to someone who looks for more than reassurement.
Lyzko 25 | 7,009
1 Mar 2019 #34
We must distinguish here between traditional home grown European anti-Semitism, such as the rich, fertile soil of the peasantry from which the Nazis drew their support as opposed to the SPD-CSU's local backing of the Palestinian Arabs who themselves are openly anti-Semitic.

Not everyone who is willing to receive an anti-Semite, for instance the German government inviting Achmudzhineshad to their county, is necessarily anti-Semitic themselves! Steinmeier & Co. are merely playing politics, but surely they're not dangerous.

Tacitus is absolutely correct that the AfD keeps awful dodgy company and surely helps fan the flames of anti-Jewish hostility, in itself not far from xenophobia.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
1 Mar 2019 #35
"Gaffes" like this are so common among the AfD that only the more egregious get attention nowadays.

Whataboutism at its finest! :)

No...Germany doesn't behave like a true friend of Israel....to many Israel enemies it its own ranks.

Maybe screaming "ANTISEMITS!" at the AfD is meant to be a red herring...but its no longer working. Frankly I don't believe these screechers anymore...and since there is a jewish group inside the AfD it gets harder and harder. The baton "Nazis" is not as functioning as in earlier times...

The late Karl Lagerfeld put it so nicely:

"One cannot - even if there are decades between them - kill millions of Jews and then bring millions of their worst enemies in their place,"

Nuff said! :)
Tacitus 2 | 1,032
1 Mar 2019 #36
Whataboutism at its finest! :)

That seems to be a more appropiate description for the attempt to bring up e.g. Steinmeier when I mentioned the antisemitism of prominent AfD members. The AfD is the only party right to the Left party that tolerates open antisemites within its' ranks. That much is undisputable.

Frankly I don't believe these screechers anymore

That is concerning, because the evidence is there for everybody to see.

The late Karl Lagerfeld put it so nicely:

Germans were once the worst enemies of the jews, they commited crimes on a scale against them on a scale unmatched by anyone up to this day. Yet they changed (though as the rise of the AfD shows, perhaps not as much as one might have hoped). There is no reason to believe that, given time, Arabs would not go the same process.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
1 Mar 2019 #37
That is concerning, because the evidence is there for everybody to see.

What evidence?

Did an AfD politician kill a Jew? Asked for a boycott of Israel? Sell weapons to Jew hater? Congratuled a country whose dearest wish is the eradication of Israel? What???

What is antisemitism to you?

PS: Interesting....

juedischerundschau.de/deutsche-politiker-wie-sie-juden-und-israel-sehen-135910928/
Tacitus 2 | 1,032
1 Mar 2019 #38
What is antisemitism to you?

Claiming that jews were responsible for their persecution throughout history. Claiming that there is no evidence that the Protocols of the Elders of Zions are a forgeries. Claiming that judaism is behind the development of modern institutions like the rule of law, which supposedly perverted the German character. Gedeon is guilty of all of this and more, yet the AfD did not think that this was enough to expel him.

Congratuled a country whose dearest wish is the eradication of Israel?

Steinmeier was heavily involved in negotiating the Iran deal, and he is one of those trying to save it because he knows that it is the best chance to secure Israel's safety. In this context did he make his congratulation.
Tacitus 2 | 1,032
1 Mar 2019 #40
Why, it is perfectly sensible from his point of view. Steinmeier belongs to the SPD, and the SPD believes since Willy Brandt that talking with your enemies is more effective than enmity. That does not mean that his congratulation was appropiate, but it does explain that the motiv behind it was no antisemitism.

But if something like this already makes your blood boil, you should really check on what e.g. Gedeon has written and said about jews. And while reading this, you always have to keep in mind that this was not deemed enough to expel him from the AfD. I guarantee you that afterwards you will feel very foolish for claiming that the AfD is more caring for jews than other parties.
Weimarer 8 | 442
1 Mar 2019 #41
Steinmeier celebrates with those who want destroy Israel. Gabriel supports Fatah. Enough said.

The AfD is the only guarantee that jews have a future in Germany.
Slavictor 7 | 198
2 Mar 2019 #42
destroy Israel.

You can not destroy something which does not exist. Palestine exists; "israel" is occupied Palestinian land. If you choose to mention "israel", it's best to speak of it as a form of temporary mafia territory. It certainly is not a country. Two divisions of U.S. marines on the beaches of Tel Aviv will solve that little problem.
Weimarer 8 | 442
2 Mar 2019 #43
@Tacitus

The SPD is dead and betrayed Germany often enough.

The AfD has its flaws but right now is the most important party we have in Germany. Infact its the only thing that stopped mad Merkel and her clapping bunnies. Fact is, without AfD, Merkel would have continued with her madness. What she did was a gargantian crime against Germany and its people. Since 2015 we have a massive rise of crime. We spend 40 billion euro per year for nothing, burden our nation as world welfare office.

Only the rise of the AfD stopped this. The holocaust is a thing of the past and i guarantee you, that i wont risk my nations future because something like holocaust rememberance. I want a future and i want a good future. And i dont see a good future if Germany becomes a nation like Brazil or Lebanon.

Once the situation stabilized in Germany, we can talk about Holocaust remembrance. Priorities comrade. I will not sit down with you on the RMS Titanic and debate about the color of the floor tiles in the dining salon, as the first 5 compartments of the ship begin to flood.

Oh and Slavictor, Israel is a advanced western nation while Palestine is just another typical middle eastern s. Palestine can go to hell. The last thing humanity needs is another middle eastern s. I give Israel a free hand to deal with this issue and im quite sure they know how to deal with it.

And the best thing is, since they are nuclear armed, they will stay. So cry me a river

P.s. i live the wall Israel build. Its a wonderful monument.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,662
2 Mar 2019 #44
Nowadays relationship between Germany and Poland has a lot of baggage from ww2. But also some positive side from times of solidarity and post-communism NATO/EU Co-operation.

I think the possibility of Good relations is quite high. Seeing as the German (Prussian) nobility is gone (meaning have no political power) and German militarism is not a part of German politics nowadays I can see a Good future. If you study the Polish-German border it was far more stable then borders of eastern Poland before the partitions. Say what you want about stereotypes, people like to trade and earn money.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
2 Mar 2019 #45
Palestine exists;

If there is an artificial construct, its Palestine...before Israel was founded there was no Palestine and no Palestinians either.

It's a construct to beat Israel with, to keep a reason to wish for its destruction and to drown Jews in the sea. That's why Arabs are still vegetating in refugee camps after so many decades. The only reason their super rich "brethren" can't be arsed to help them out...they are pawns in a dirty game.

They are kept there for a reason and it's not out of sympathy for them but for hate against the Jews!
Ironside 49 | 10,497
2 Mar 2019 #46
Nowadays relationship between Germany and Poland has a lot of baggage from ww2.

Not really. I don't see it that way. It has a lot of issues that are consequences of the last 30 years and the EU. The WWII has only marginal meaning in those relations, mostly some Polish politicians are trying to use a bargain chip. It would be OK IF they would be doing that out of the political calculation. Sadly they think in the categories of right and wrong, a moral debt and such. That makes them look silly and ineffective and oft misunderstood.

If there is an artificial construct, its Palestine...before Israel was founded there was no Palestine and no Palestinians either.

Right, Muslims, Arabs just want t o drive away invaders and infidels. Funny how a religion of conquest has tables turned ion them lol!

By the way Israel without full support of the USA is just a small fry. Nukes or not nukes.

Sad that that country seems to be taken over by the lunatic. Likud if it is anything like their current (soon to be locked up for corruption) Prime minister should hold their meetings in a asylum not in the parliament building.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
2 Mar 2019 #47
Funny how a religion of conquest has tables turned ion them lol!

.....and they have it in their own hands to stop that. Nobody else does.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,662
2 Mar 2019 #48
I was thinking of the older generation in general, with lower demographics the politicians will have to listen to the oldest generation as times go by as they are the biggest electorate. PiS will have to be a bit anti-German or keeping up such a narrative to have people from the right voting for them.

Which is sad as most of Polish-German history is based on trade and peace (mind you as in HRE, German states. Not thinking particularly about Teutonic Order or Prussia/Prussian Germany).

Germany today, without having external threats from her neighbors can turn pasifisct and trade oriented. Which is why good relations with Germany is a good idea for Poland.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
2 Mar 2019 #49
I actually think Europe is in trouble for this reason. Lukashenko is perhaps the best example - he kept paying pensions, while crushing opposition.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
2 Mar 2019 #50
Agreed!

A majority (not all of them though) of the young ones has totally different problems. All things war and borders have become a thing of the past for them...but it will take awhile till they can make it count in the voting booth. Many of them see immigration also not as problematic as we old farts...climate change for example is much more important for many of them.
Ironside 49 | 10,497
2 Mar 2019 #51
I was thinking of the older generation in general, with lower demographics

I think you are mistaken. It is no demographics or some sympathies or antipathies of the general populace that dictates directions of a country polices but interests.

I'm surprised that you took the German narrative to hearth and blame it all on Poland's grovemnat. It is Germany that has a problem with the direction Poland took, for their own particular reasons. They are those who created that conflict not Poland. It simple Poland no longer see a need to serve as a junior partner of Germany. Meaning German interests do not came first and Poland's interest can take a precedence.

There could be a different sort of problem in interaction of those two countries - Germans have no partners to talk to from the Polish side. they send them some pen-pusher or morons who do not talk the talk, My guess but I'm sure I'm not wrong.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,662
2 Mar 2019 #52
I do not take a German stance (what ever that means) I am merely pointing out the flaws of PiS government.
I rather have PiS in government then PO only cause they want what's best for Poland. The anti-democratic nature of those on the left of PiS scare me a lot. Not to mention corruption.

Still, Germany isn't a power that needs to be contended with to such degree like the Russian Federation. For now Poland needs to rebuild as much as possible and grow economically, Poland's "Ace of spades" is it's growing economy vs all odds.

It's a card nobody can simply ignore or shrug off. Germany is currently riding that horse as much as possible. And I think Poland should use the opportunity to get anything it can out of good relations with any German government.

Just like in the past, growth trade and peaceful relations should be the aim of every Polish government for it's western border. One should just not be naive about it
Weimarer 8 | 442
2 Mar 2019 #53
@Bratwurst Boy

In east germany most young people like myself give a **** about climate chamge.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,274
2 Mar 2019 #54
east germany

You are a troll. No German would refer to "East Germany". At the very least, you are one poorly educated chap. Sorry for you - but it's never too late to better yourself.

I rather have PiS in government then PO only cause they want what's best for Poland

Another clown. My wife has received a Polish pension at the young age of 60. That is good news for her, as every little helps - but it will clearly help to ruin the economy.

PIS economically speaking is totally clueless. Luckily, my daughter will not be picking up the bill.
Poles - get the hell out while you still can.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,956
2 Mar 2019 #55
will clearly help to ruin the economy.

How can you say that, would you want her to continue to work if she were a fire woman or steel erector, do you really want people to slave their golden years to feather the nests of the bourgeois, there is a seat at the local Tory club in Nottingham waiting for you Doug.
Miloslaw 6 | 3,027
2 Mar 2019 #56
In east germany most young people like myself give a **** about climate chamge

Most people in the world don't give a ****,they just want to get on with their lives.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,274
2 Mar 2019 #57
The " Local Tory club"?
You don't get it - because, unlike you. I have actually lived in Poland for 27 years now, plus.
I voted Labour in the UK, and always will - Blair proved that Britain can actually afford social justice. Poland palpably cannot. There is no economic base. Poland is too poor for handouts. Not that the economy will ever effect you, as an ageing expat.

Your lack of care for the following generation beggars belief.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,956
2 Mar 2019 #58
Blair proved that Britain can actually afford social justice

He proved he could kneel down and pray with Bush before he rained hell on innocent civilians in Iraq , you were in Poland remember!!!!

Volvo? who in their right mind would buy one of those.

Douglas @Your lack of care for the following generation beggars belief."

The following generation is inheriting one of the fastest growing economies in Europe.

And no Doug is not listening.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,274
3 Mar 2019 #59
one of the fastest growing economies in Europe.

Oh dear oh dear Dolno. Poland started from a rather low base - remember?
It was called totalitarianism FFS. Bob and his uncle could have grown the economy year on year from that.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,592
3 Mar 2019 #60
before Israel was founded there was no Palestine and no Palestinians either.

Wtf u talking about Palestine existed from Roman times up to after ww1, when the Jews in UK especially Balfour convinced the British to two time the Saudis for their help against the ottomans. The brits have a history of two timing they did the same with Poland.


Home / History / History of two Neighbors: Poland - Germany Interrelations
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.