Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn?

More than 30000 Russians were tortured there by Polish authorities. And when you, my friends, are claiming for justice in the case of Katyn, you should remember these victims too. I think that Katyn is the righteous retaliation for your own faults.

Here they are:

Waldemar Rezmer, Zbigniew Karpus, Gennadij Matvejev, "Krasnoarmieitsy v polskom plenu v 1919-1922 g. Sbornik dokumentov i materialov" («Red Army POWs in the Polish POW camps 1919-1922»), Federal Agency for Russian Archives, Moscow 2004

uk.ask.com/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919-1924)?qsrc=3044

Don't worry, ConstantineK, we don't blame you for this.

ConstantineK
From your link:

A very interesting article. I liked it very much.
It can see it says Russian personnel of the Imperial Russian Army, and Russian civilians was captured by Germany during World War I and left on Polish territory after the end of the war;

It also says that "Due to epidemics raging at the time" the Russian people died.
They were in camps... They were prisoners...
Being a prisoner is extremely difficult. Many people can just go on a fence and to get a shot in their back, because they wanted to escape. Prisoners have to listen to their superiors. In other case they could lose their life.

Being in place like this You have to be soo clever and strong to survive! It depends in most cases if You were born under a lucky star or not!

There is not a matter of other people who will allow You to live (in many cases of course). There was a war. Conditions were, like it usually happens, in those times, very very hard.

Surviving was a matter of a character and power inside you. When You body dies it may mean that Your soul does not want to live in Your body anymore.

It's not a matter of anybody's fault IMPO.
I feel sorry for all people who had to be in places like this one. They are all in my memory and my heart.
Their nationality in not important. They were all victims of the War.

Well, then the same perfect logic may be applied to those victims of Katyn. They simply died or let's say lost their lives trying to escape, isn't it? They were no more than war casualties.

Simple truths. :)

That might be true except that they all seemed to have died trying to escape with their hands tied, about a foot away from a gun pointed at the back of their head, adjacent mass graves.

Oh, please don't exaggerate the fact. As you possibly know, the shot in head is better death than being starved to death. You may consider this as a mercy.

Maybe, but a more merciful act would have been to treat them per the Geneva Convention.

i consider it an unnecessary evil

So, I assume that Poles deserve this more than Russians?


And I consider camps for Soviets as the same violation of human rights

Lets do some worst case math:

20,000 / 80,000 = 25% Death by disease / attrition while the balance seemed to live, probably fed to some degree. Not bad for a few years in captivity....

22,000 / 22,000 = 100% death by murder.

Seems to me the Poles were a tad more merciful.

I see how they ripped open the belly and sewed a live cat there.

It seems to me that Poles simply less pedantic and more brutal than Russians.

I read the content of the link you provided. Unfortunately it made no reference to sewing a live cat into an open human belly. Can't really comment on that.


It seems to me that Russians are a little more creative in linking "relevant" information than others.

Konstantinek read some facts from links (there is no Russian version of 1st link) and watch youtube it's possible it's propaganda but keep in mind Russian didn't let leak any film from this time. Keep in mind most of Soviet POW would die in SU after Polish-Russian war anyway.


Polish prisoners and internees in the Soviet Union and Lithuania.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_prisoners_and_internees_in_the_Soviet_Union_and_Lithuania_(1919%E2%80%931921)

Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919-1924)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919%E2%80%931924)

This persistant troll or shill can't even get the communist lies straight.

How does one justify Katyń? Not easy, but one must try, so they invent "crimes." From your own link, troll:


In communist times, not so long ago, you couldn't even discuss Katyń, but the communists provided a substitute: Chatyń. This you could talk about.


belarus-misc.
/wiki/Khatyn_massacre

This kind of thing continues in some communist circles and thus you get threads like this. Commmunists in Russia still agrue that the Germans are responsible for Katyń. They will invent something else soon.

Not that I would like to discuss exactly this fact, we both know that Poles could have committed such crime. Anyway it is from the same series as the facts that Poles allegedly were sawn up by Ukrainians.


You know that I am Russian. Above all, you flatter yourself when you are thinking that Poland is so great that somebody needs to kindle the polonophobic feelings. Believe me or not but I am interested to kindle your empty proud only!


Then you should keep in mind that most of Polish officers would die during German invasion.


Oh, I like Poles!!! They are so..., so predictable. They eagerly pick their ulcers risking to suffocate everyone by their historical miasma, and lose interest immediately as soon as someone wants to make a hint that their own behavior cannot be considered as ideal

Saying that Tuchola is a roots of Katyń is a huge exaggeration.
You can't compare those two places. Among many because of the reason:
Russian there died because of epidemy, they were not killed by Polish soldiers
I will remember about Russian victims in Tuchola.

Where is the difference? Starvation and epidemic on one side and merciful bullet on another one. We can call shoots in Katyn as epidemic too.

We can't. Shoots need performers of the action.
Epidemy is more like an event which is independent on anybody's will. It's difficult to stop because it expands without anybody's fault.

Yeah, it's called lead poisoning from Russian bullets fired by Russian soldiers. There's no comparison.

Really? What would you say if somebody had placed you both behind the barbwire and starved you their? Where is the difference? I ask you!

Yes, I assume that our deeds in Katyn were atrocious, but at least we had idea. All these were considered as sacrifice for the future. But you, Poles, with your petty provincial crimes look twice more disgusting.

Really. If you weren't so obtuse you'd see the obvious difference. And no, I'm not Polish, just objective, unlike you.

Bookshit:

Soviet prisoners of war in the Polish camps in 1920:
...

I'd say: you have no right to place me here. I have a human right to live and not to be hungry. So, I would say: let me go, please. I prefer to die because of hunger or epidemy than to be killed because of Your irresponsible action filled with violence and aggression.

Why you are not interested in facts. Watch the film. There are International Red Cross Ducuments presented - 30 volumes of them in Geneva; Russion historians talking about their work with their Polish collegues - financed by Putin. The Polish-Russian group of historians wrote a thorough study on the issue - not published only on demand of Russian authorities. There are Russian archivists talking about requirenments of propaganda which, as always, have priority over truth. There are Polish documents: death certificats of Soviet POWs; POWs hospital cards stating who, when, and of what cause died. There are tombstones of POWs, descendants of Soviet POWs, now Polish citizens, and more... just watch.

In this case you will get a bullet in your head, since I would consider this as open disobedience. There would be neither violence nor aggression in my actions.

And if my aunt had nuts, she'd be my uncle.

If Katyń was a "


for those Soviet POWs, then what was Polish operation of NKVD a "righteous retaliation" for?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_operation_of_the_NKVD
The invasion of Poland in 1939? The deportation of several hundred thousand Poels to Siberia, of which at least a third died?

I understand that you are upset about the unfair label of 'barbarians' that some people are quick to give the Russians, but you won't achieve anything by invoking history for the simple fact that the number of Russians killed by Poles is miniscule in comparison to the number of Poles killed by Russians.

Katyń massacres were not retaliation for anything. Stalin, just like Hitler at the same time, wanted to eliminate the Polish intelligensia. That's it. The Soviet NKVD, and the German Gestapo with the Eisatzgruppen, swapped lists of officers, teachers, clergy, public officials, policemen, etc., and proceeded to execute them in 1939 and 1940. Remember, the Russians and the Germans were partners then. Then, in 1941, the co-operation ended when then had a falling out.