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Terrible past for the Jews in Poland?


Vox - | 175
20 Mar 2015 #451
Now you're trying victim-blaming for 700 years of oppression

Three times lucky. Am I correct in thinking you are implying that the Jews were victims of oppression in Poland?
Are you claiming that Jewish community in Poland had no sense, suffered some kind of a group masochistic syndrome or were plainly stupid?
Would you like to provide evidence to support your claim? If not lay down and relax, a glass of water might help.
jon357 67 | 16,836
20 Mar 2015 #452
Aw you saying that Jewish people as a group never suffered oppression in Poland and that pogroms, restrictive legislation and institutional racism were all a dream?
Vox - | 175
20 Mar 2015 #453
One could argue that there is a noticeable difference in length between "never" and "700 years". Would you be kind enough to tell me which meaning of the word "oppression" you had in mind?

1. the exercise of authority in cruel or unjust manner.
2. the feeling of being heavily burdened by troubles, adverse concisions .....
By the way it didn't escape my attention that you have eluded my question.
CalmIt
20 Mar 2015 #454
The Jewish people did not suffer discrimination at the hands of the Poles, please stop spreading falsehoods, Jon. They suffered no more or less so than any other group of people have at some point throughout history.
Dougpol1 32 | 2,708
20 Mar 2015 #455
Indeed the Poles always blame Jews on their problems

Do you agree ?

Yep

there have been billions of dollars extracted from this country after 1989

Do you live in Poland? Were you here in 1989? I was and you are talking anti-semitic tripe. Where were those billions of dollars you talk about? Any misappropriation would have been carried out by the nomenclature.

Innit?
jon357 67 | 16,836
20 Mar 2015 #456
How would you know Calmit? In any case, if they suffered "no more or less" than any other group, you seem to be condoning suffering wherever it is.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
20 Mar 2015 #457
Once upon a time, a powerful Emperor of the Rising Sun advertised for a new Chief Samurai. After a year, only three applied for the job: a Japanese, a Chinese and a Jewish Samurai. "Demonstrate your skills!" commanded the Emperor.

The Japanese samurai stepped forward, opened a tiny box and released a fly. He drew his samurai sword and *Swish!* the fly fell to the floor, neatly divided in two!

"What a feat!" said the Emperor. "Number Two Samurai, show me what you do."
The Chinese samurai smiled confidently, stepped forward and opened a tiny box, releasing a fly. He drew his samurai sword and *Swish! *Swish!* The fly fell to the floor neatly quartered.

"That is skill!" nodded the Emperor. "How are you going to top that, Number three Samurai?"
The Jewish samurai, Yoku Cohen, stepped forward, opened a tiny box releasing one fly, drew his samurai sword and *Swoosh!* flourished his sword mightily, but the fly was still buzzing around!

In disappointment, the Emperor said, "What kind of skill is that? The fly isn't even dead."
"Dead," replied Cohen in contempt. "Dead is easy. Now circumcision, that takes real skill."
Lyzko 29 | 7,240
21 Mar 2015 #458
Priceless, Polonius!!!!LOL
Harry
3 Apr 2015 #459
Would you be able to name few of those anti-Semitic policies?

Of course.
Ban on certain Polish citizens entering Poland after being expelled from Germany (which led to Kristallnacht).
Ban on Jews becoming doctors.
Ban on Jews becoming lawyers.
Ban on Jews sitting anywhere other than the ghetto benches at universities.
Closing of schools which educated Jews in their mother tongue.
Limits of access to university for Jews.
Ban on Jews having meat which met their religious dietary requirements.
And of course, last but by no means least, the government commission to investigate of possibilities of deporting Polish Jews to Madagascar, the 'Madagascar plan', which the Nazis took up and then turned into the Lublin und Nisko plan before turning to the Final Solution.

That enough for you?

Post quoted from is not in this thread.

Is this not the right place for this post?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
3 Apr 2015 #460
This from Wikipedia for better or worse:
Between the end of the Polish-Soviet War of 1919 and late 1938, the Jewish population of the Republic has grown by nearly half a million or over 464,000 persons.[1] Jews preferred to live in relatively tolerant Poland rather than in the USSR, and continued to integrate, to marry into Polish Gentile families, to bring them into their community through marriage, to feel Polish and to form an important part of Polish society.[2] Between 1933 and 1938, around 25,000 German Jews fled Nazi Germany to sanctuary in Poland.[3]
Harry
3 Apr 2015 #461
Between 1933 and 1938, around 25,000 German Jews fled Nazi Germany to sanctuary in Poland.

Interesting cut off date, I wonder if the author would like us to overlook the thousands of Polish Jews who were denied entry into their own country.
Vox - | 175
3 Apr 2015 #462
That enough for you?

I'm going to check it all out but I have already spotted one logical fallacy and one false assumption.

there:

And of course, last but by no means least, the government commission to investigate of possibilities of deporting Polish Jews to Madagascar, the 'Madagascar plan', which the Nazis took up and then turned into the Lublin und Nisko plan before turning to the Final Solution.

Limits of access to university for Jews.

Harry
3 Apr 2015 #463
I have already spotted one logical fallacy and one false assumption.

Do tell.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
3 Apr 2015 #464
the thousands of Polish Jews who were denied entry into their own country.

I confused about the "their own country" bit. Why were they out of "their own country"? I'd love to see some evidence of this. Did Poland treat Jews in the 1930s worse than other countries? If so, why didn't they move out?
Harry
3 Apr 2015 #465
What was the 'own country' for Polish citizens other than Poland?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
3 Apr 2015 #466
Dunno? Israel? Germany? Russia? If they weren't admitted into Poland why was it their "own country"?
Harry
4 Apr 2015 #467
Polonius, it was their country because they were Polish citizens, but they were not allowed to enter Poland. I'd give details but the topic of this thread is the "Terrible past for the Jews in Poland" and these were Polish Jews who couldn't have a terrible past in Poland, i.e. Poles off topic for this thread and so providing an excellent excuse for discussion about them to be forbidden here.
Bernatowiczfil
9 Apr 2015 #468
As a Pole, who is 1/4 Austrian and 1/4 Soviet (Russian/Belarusian or Ukrainian), we Poles don't hate the Jews. It's just that some of the 'older' population blame the Jews for the Nazi invasion on Poland.

I'm am, however, very tolerant and I hate racists for that matter. As a Polish saying goes;

Chytry jak ┼╝yd
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
9 Apr 2015 #469
And of course, last but by no means least, the government commission to investigate of possibilities of deporting Polish Jews to Madagascar, the 'Madagascar plan', which the Nazis took up and then turned into the Lublin und Nisko plan before turning to the Final Solution.
That enough for you?

It is enough to say that using the slippery-slope fallacy to blood libel Poles is a particularly disgusting example of Holocaust fetishism.
Harry
9 Apr 2015 #470
blood libel

You didn't really have to just bring up that very unpleasant stain on the history (and present) of Poles, did you?

Holocaust fetishism

No matter how many times certain people bang on about Holocaust fetishism, it will never exist. Although it's no surprise to see the people who claim it does exist are almost always the same people who claim that their 'anti-zionism' is in no way whatsoever a sign of anti-semitism.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Apr 2015 #471
I'm really not following this. Where were they supposed to enter Poland from? Why weren't they in Poland already if these were Polish citizens? Who did not let them enter: Polish border guards, the army, police? And when did this allegedly occur?
Harry
9 Apr 2015 #472
Where were they supposed to enter Poland from?

Germany.

Why weren't they in Poland already if these were Polish citizens?

They lived in Germany. Lots of Poles lived outside of Poland, lots still do.

Who did not let them enter: Polish border guards, the army, police?

A combination apparently. Initially border guards simply refused to let them cross the border. Then after they were allowed to cross, thousands of them were locked up in an internment camp in Zbaszyn, among them Herszel Grynszpan's family.

And when did this allegedly occur?

No allegedly about it. October 1938. Just google Polenaktion for details.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
9 Apr 2015 #473
Harry, when you use a slippery-slope fallacy to blame Poles for the Holocaust it is blood libel. You brought it up and you should be ashamed of yourself. You have done this in the service of your fetish, the Holocaust. Holocaust fetishism exists and your disgusting post is a clear example of it.
JollyRomek 7 | 481
9 Apr 2015 #474
to blame Poles for the Holocaust

Not to blame them but surely you will not deny the antisemitic stand of the Armii Krajowej which has a street named after them in literally every Polish city?
Harry
9 Apr 2015 #475
Harry, when you use a slippery-slope fallacy to blame Poles for the Holocaust

Would you care to quote from a post in which I blame Poles for the Holocaust? Or shall we just conclude that such a quote exists only in your head?

the antisemitic stand of the Armii Krajowej

The murders of Jews committed by AK members took place at the same time as the Holocaust but were not actually part of the Holocaust.
JollyRomek 7 | 481
9 Apr 2015 #476
but were not actually part of the Holocaust.

In my opinion it does not matter. Poles like to point their fingers at Germany or Russia (and in some way rightly so) but when doing so they like to forget about the atrocities committed by Poles during the war. I wonder how many streets in Poland would change their name if history would be taught without missing important factors.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
9 Apr 2015 #477
Harry, I have already quoted the post in which you stupidly use a slippery slope fallacy to implicate Poles in the creation of the "Final Solution". The reader can see this above. Acting like a petulant baby about it won't get you out of the disgusting hole you have dug for yourself. Lie in the mud.
Harry
9 Apr 2015 #478
Harry, I have already quoted the post in which you stupidly use a slippery slope fallacy to implicate Poles in the creation of the "Final Solution".

No, you have quoted from a post in which I mention a plan the Polish government investigated which the Nazis then picked up. The Nazis then changed that plan into another plan. When the Nazis realised that their revised plan would not work, they came up with a completely different plan. At no time have I mentioned or alleged or implied any Polish participation in the creation of the "Final Solution".

So, I repeat: would you care to quote from a post in which I blame Poles for the Holocaust? Or shall we just conclude that such a quote exists only in your head?

Acting like a petulant baby about it won't get you out of the disgusting hole you have dug for yourself. Lie in the mud.

OK, we can conclude from the way that you have resorted to insults when challenged about the lack of factual basis for your post that we should just conclude that the quote I asked for above exists only in your head.

What would Nietzsche have to say about such behaviour? I do seem to remember that his solution to anti-semitism was to shoot all anti-Semites, I wonder if he'd accept claims that an anti-semite was just an anti-zionist.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
9 Apr 2015 #479
Here, again, is the post in which Harry implicates Poles in the creation of the Final Solution:

And of course, last but by no means least, the government commission to investigate of possibilities of deporting Polish Jews to Madagascar, the 'Madagascar plan', which the Nazis took up and then turned into the Lublin und Nisko plan before turning to the Final Solution.
That enough for you?

What do you think reader? Am I right? If not, then why does Harry mention the "Madagascar plan" in conjunction with the "final Solution" and why would a plan that was merely investigated, and not implemented, be "by no means the least" part of a terrible past for the Jews in Poland?
Harry
9 Apr 2015 #480
Here, again, is the post in which Harry implicates Poles in the creation of the Final Solution:

No, there is a post in which I mention a plan the Polish government investigated which the Nazis then picked up. The Nazis then changed that plan into another plan. When the Nazis realised that their revised plan would not work, they came up with a completely different plan.

If not, then why does Harry mention the "Madagascar plan" in conjunction with the "final Solution"

Because while it was clearly anti-semitic, it was nothing compared to the plan the Nazis came up with.

why would a plan that was merely investigated, and not implemented, be "by no means the least" part of a terrible past for the Jews in Poland?

The fact that the Polish government even investigated deporting Polish Jews to Africa shows that the junta which ruled Poland then had anti-semitic tendencies.


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