remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland

27 Jan 2010 #31

I really don't want to discuss this here with you...

There is enough material out there, for those who want to see that is...for those who don't no book or researched article will be enough.

You have along way to go still.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/pole2jew.html

....Shortly before his death in 1944, he entrusted the diary to a Polish friend. The document was eventually given to the Yad Vashem Archives. It was published in Hebrew in 1993 and in English in 1996.

I would like to characterize the attitudes of Poles toward Jews and, in general, toward the acts of extermination of Jews.
The lower classes of the townspeople as well as the peasants oriented themselves to which-ever way the wind was blowing. They understood that they had an opportunity to enrich themselves, one that came only in a great while.
One could pillage without penalty, steal, kill people, so that many using the slogan "now or never" got to work. They raised their hands to heaven, thankful for the favor that they had lived to see such times...

They considered themselves innocent. After all, the Germans were responsible.

Not much changed till now, has it....

"The one and immortal favor by the Germans toward the Poles is the fact that they had cleansed her of Jews."

....
One has to look truth squarely in the eye.
Jews perished first of all because they didn't realize in time what level German cruelty and barbarism would reach.
They were well aware, however, of the vileness of some Poles. They knew what it was that closed before them the gates of the Polish neighborhood and forced them to wait in the ghetto for the near and inevitable sentence of death.

SeanBM 34 | 5781

27 Jan 2010 #32

remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day

Rest in peace.

So much suffering, so much pain so much death.
I hope none of us ever experience anything even remotely like this.

Gaa

27 Jan 2010 #33

but they hired some poles to help them to kill jews .

let's not forget about jews collaborating with the nazis.

Nika 2 | 507

27 Jan 2010 #34

There were also plenty of evil people, and a huge majority of apathetic people.

you are right convex, but saying that holocaust was possible only thanks to enthusiastic help of local ppl is REALLY exaggerated!

convex 20 | 3928

27 Jan 2010 #35

remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day

Rest in peace.

So much suffering, so much pain so much death.
I hope none of us ever experience anything even remotely like this.

We did, just a few years back. The only difference is that this happened in our backyard. It is still happening, right now, in our lifetime. In our last decade. That is the sad part.

Torq

27 Jan 2010 #36

How about Kielce? Is that debatable?

My point is that if there were cases of Polish crimes against Jews (and most likely
there were some) they are completely drowned in the sea of heroism of Poles and
all the Polish blood spilled for saving our Jewish neighbours and friends.

I'm not trying to justify those who commited crimes against Jews, but I do oppose
statements like "Nazis couldn't do it without your people's enthusiastic help" because
they are 1 - untrue (they could and they did) and 2 - offensive to all those who gave
their lives to save Jews.

No one is denying that Poles made huge sacrifices, and that there were countless heroes. There were also plenty of evil people, and a huge majority of apathetic people.

But of course.

SeanBM 34 | 5781

27 Jan 2010 #37

We did, just a few years back.

Okay, I'll ask.

How did you experience the holocaust?

espana 17 | 947

27 Jan 2010 #38

let's not forget about jews collaborating with the nazis

let's not forget about the germans who helped the jews too.

convex 20 | 3928

27 Jan 2010 #39

How did you experience the holocaust?

I was watching it on television and reading in the newspapers about the 5.4 million that were systematically killed in the Congo.

How did you experience it?

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

27 Jan 2010 #40

"Nazis couldn't do it without your people's enthusiastic help"

Well no, they couldn't.

Do you know the number of Einsatzgruppen members? 3000 man!
Do you really believe those few men could have killed so many people on their own???
Wherever they went they found easily enthusiastic helpers who also spoke the language and could point out the Jews to the Germans, hunting them for their masters...

The Germans alone would had been lost with this task in eastern Europe all by themselves.

In western Europe it was not much different! In France the french militia rounded up their Jews for transport even WITHOUT having been asked too.

All such stuff what is of course hidden away and taboo with many...the bad Germans did it all of course...WE are innocent little angels! Ha!

..
It's difficult for me to write about Poles. What is happening today is the greatest disillusionment that I have endured in my life. I have lived for twenty-six years among the Poles, embraced Polish culture and literature, loved Poland, looked on her as another motherland, and only in the last year have I recognized the true faces of Poles.

I would gladly describe the facts of every noble behavior toward Jews, but I cannot be silent in the face of the vileness of those who, out of desire for profit or out of blind hatred, sacrificed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people.

SeanBM 34 | 5781

27 Jan 2010 #41

I was watching it on television and reading in the newspapers about the 5.4 million that were systematically killed in the Congo.

I am not going to start an argument with you but watching T.V. and reading newspapers is very different from experiencing the holocaust.

How did you experience it?

I didn't experience it. More deaths in Congo than any other conflict post-WWII: survey..

Nika 2 | 507

27 Jan 2010 #42

Whatever you say BB, it won't change the fact that if it wasn't for the Germans, all these millions of people would be alive.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

27 Jan 2010 #43

Whatever you say BB, it won't change

Yeah...Nika...why does that not surprise me coming from you!
Your current version of the Holocaust is so much nicer for you, isn't it? So much easier to point a righteous finger to the Germans...thinking yourself all squeaky clean.

But don't be surprised if in books, newspapers or TV you see another "anti-polish propaganda" mentioning your own historical faults.

Most of the historians don't have your blinders...(probably because they aren't polish in the first place).

Whatever you say BB, it won't change the fact that if it wasn't for the Germans, all these millions of people would be alive.

Yeah...like in Kielce, right?

The only pogrom where Jews were murdered after the liberation of Auschwitz and the end of the Holocaust!

You never needed Germans for killing Jews!

Torq

27 Jan 2010 #44

Well no, they couldn't.

There was no enthusiastic help of Polish population in general as you are trying
to suggest. There were more people who helped the Jews (even though Germans
threaten everyone who did with a death penalty) than those who help the Nazis
(even though they could expect reward for it).

Do you know the number of Einsatzgruppen members? 3000 man!
Do you really believe those few men could have killed so many people on their own???

What? Do you take me for a fool? Germans have their administration, Gestapo,
army, SS and police to execute their "final solution". Are you trying to say that
only members of Einsatzgruppen were involved in the Holocaust? Come on!

The crimes that were committed in Poland cannot be treated as transgressions by individuals against laws, regulations, or orders. They are not merely the criminal acts of individual people, in breach of valid laws. They were planned and prepared for by the chief German governmental authorities, who explicitly instructed offices and government officials as to the way in which they should be carried out. They were committed in accordance with Nazi law and with Nazi ethics and ideology; not only by members of the Gestapo, SS and police, but also by officers and soldiers of the German army, German administrative officials, railway officials, doctors, and by representatives of German industry and science. The whole governmental system in Poland was criminal, and every crime was an inevitable consequence of the official German attitude.

ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpolint.htm
ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/poland.htm

convex 20 | 3928

27 Jan 2010 #45

I didn't experience it.

My mistake, I thought you meant "us" in the sense of the human race, not individuals. Not to have to experience the atrocities ever again, regardless of to whom or where...

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

27 Jan 2010 #46

There was no enthusiastic help of Polish population in general as you are trying
to suggest.

I try nothing to suggest!

I bring links to witness reports....sorry they don't fit your rosy view either...
And yes...the Einsatzgruppen were send for killing Jews, communist leaders and other hostile subjects. They got lists and set to work.

The mass killings in the camps didn't gear up really before 1943/44...stop mixing things up.

....
In most East European countries, where the bulk of the Jewry resided, the German received ample help from the local population. In Poland, the Jews were beaten, blackmailed, robbed, denounced. Peasants caught runaway Jews, bound them like pigs and delivered them to the Gestapo in exchange for a liter of vodka and a kilogram of sugar. Jews hiding in forests were outright killed.
The Polish underground Army, passed many death sentences on Polish collaborators, but denunciation of Jews was never punished. Poles rejoiced when the Warsaw Ghetto was burning. "The Jewish bedbugs are finally torched."

In Warsaw there was a saying: "The whole world will throw stones at Hitler's grave, we will send flowers, grateful for removing the Jews from Poland."

by Alexander Kimel - Holocaust Survivor

SeanBM 34 | 5781

27 Jan 2010 #47

Not to have to experience the atrocities ever again, regardless of to whom or where...

I can't imagine anything better than that.

(I too am at fault for the mistake convex, I thought you were saying something else also)

Nika 2 | 507

27 Jan 2010 #48

Yeah...Nika...why does that not surprise me coming from you!

I regret that I can't surprise you BB :(
No one is saying that Poles have no faults BB, but no WWII=no holocaust=millions of people's lifes saved. It's as simple as that.

Torq

27 Jan 2010 #49

I bring links to witness reports...

You bring links to isolated, few cases which do not mirror the attitude
of the majority of Poles during WW2 and from those solitary cases you
are forming ridiculous generalizations.

And yes...the Einsatzgruppen were...

...involved in the Holocaust just as:

members of the Gestapo, SS and police, but also officers and soldiers of the German army, German administrative officials, railway officials, doctors, and by representatives of German industry and science. The whole governmental system in Poland was criminal, and every crime was an inevitable consequence of the official German attitude.

ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/poland.htm

convex 20 | 3928

27 Jan 2010 #50

no WWII=no holocaust=millions of people's lifes saved

lets go one further back no Versailles=no WWII=no holocaust=millions of people's lifes saved

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

27 Jan 2010 #51

Whereas you repeat the mantra of the heroic mass of Poles with only a few bad apples?
Why is it that the Jews have it mostly the other way around???

There are much more stories like these around....if you don't like them, don't accept them it isn't my problem.

The Participation of Poles in Crimes Against Jews
in the Świętokrzyskie Region

....
Although more than sixty years have passed since the events under discussion,
one would be hard pressed to discover deeper reflection on the story
either by the main characters, or even those who were just spectators.

An overwhelming picture of almost complete indifference to the
fate of the murdered Jews emerges from the interviews. If some emo-
tion surfaces in them, it is rather a dislike of the murdered victims and
only rarely of the murderers.

More often than not, the antipathy to the murderers stems from animosity between neighbors, or suspicion of getting rich "from Jewish gold," rather than because of the crimes committed against the Jew.

Gaa

27 Jan 2010 #52

no germans= no ww1 = no versailles;p

Torq

27 Jan 2010 #53

Really, sometimes this board is like a twilight zone - poor Germans could
never have accomplished the Holocaust without Polish help and next thing
we will hear will be that we probably also killed 3 million of our own people
ourselves, gassed them in concentration camps and made soap out of their
dead bodies.

Germans had nothing to do with it - God forbid! Or maybe just a little bit,
but luckily they got "enthusiastic support" of Polish population that was
being slaughtered by millions at the same time but didn't mind that and
helped the Germans however they could... with enthusiasm that is!

Feckin twilight zone...

Why is it that the Jews have it mostly the other way around???

Well, we have a couple of Jews on this board - let's ask them who do they blame
for the Holocaust and who do they think were worse - Germans or Poles. They might
be able to provide accurate information about the attitudes of people in Israel (their
parents and grandparents as well).

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

27 Jan 2010 #54

no germans= no ww1 = no versailles;p

no Poland after WWI = no WWII
That's more like it!

Feckin twilight zone...

No mysterious twilight zone....I bring links to facts, research and witness reports...it's all there!

Nika 2 | 507

27 Jan 2010 #55

lets go one further back no Versailles=no WWII=no holocaust=millions of people's lifes saved

oh, so it's Versaille that's responsible for Holocaust? That's something new.....

Gaa

27 Jan 2010 #56

yeah. let's go back to the dinosaurs era.
if they didn't die out there would be no people now..no people= no wars

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

27 Jan 2010 #57

oh, so it's Versaille that's responsible for Holocaust? That's something new.....

Well...it left an otherwise unimportant painter in Vienna itching for revenge.
And many Germans now being made homeless by new borders just waiting for someone like him.

What was your grade in history Nika?

yeah. let's go back to the dinosaurs era.
if they didn't die out there would be no people now..no people= no wars

Well...you started this game!

forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=159764

....
He believes that one factor in this recent shift has been a growing trend of Israelis visiting death camps in Poland. As a result, he said, Israelis place a large part of the blame for the Holocaust on Poles instead of Germans.

In a poll he ran last year, a quarter of Israelis said they thought that Poles were as responsible as Germans for the Holocaust.

*shrug*

radziejow.blogspot.com/2009/09/post-world-war-ii-poland-and.html

...
Nazi policies toward the Jews, the legendary underground Polish diplomat Jan Karski reported to his government-in-exile in London in 1940, formed "a sort of narrow bridge where the Germans and a large part of Polish society meet in harmony."

It wasn't only Karski saying so. Eyewitnesses in the Warsaw ghetto saw Poles watching approvingly or even helping out, acting as spotters as German soldiers shot Jews. Polish girls were overheard joking, "Come, look, how cutlets from Jews are frying," as the ghetto burned.

Nazi accounts of Judenjagd, or "Jew hunts," detailed how Poles pitched in to find any stray Jews the Germans somehow managed to miss. As the deportations proceeded, and practically before the trains had left for Chelmno or Belzec or Treblinka, Poles gathered on the outskirts of towns, waiting to plunder Jewish property or move into Jewish homes.

Karski a liar too...in some twilight zone???

Torq

27 Jan 2010 #58

Axishistory forum? Is it something like an Adolf/Benito/All-the-Lesser-Axis-Twats Fanclub?

In a poll he ran last year, a quarter of Israelis said they
thought that Poles were as responsible as Germans for the Holocaust.

I always said Jews are a smart nation - they only have 25% of utter idiots.
In most societies that number is closer to 60-70%. Fair play to them - Am Israel Chai!

SeanBM 34 | 5781

27 Jan 2010 #59

Poles were as responsible as Germans for the Holocaust.

Do you believe this BB?

Nika 2 | 507

27 Jan 2010 #60

no germans= no ww1 = no versailles;p

lol Gaa

no germans= no ww1 = no versailles = no WWII = no holocaust = milions of lifes saved

no Poland after WWI = no WWII
That's more like it!

yeah BB, and the earth is flat!