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remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland


TheOther 5 | 3,831
28 Jan 2010 #121
Most of those who went there were probably volksdeutche of some sort anyway, so the number of actual, real Poles living in Germany is most likely much lower.

I think you're wrong here, Torq. Google for 'Ruhrpolen' and you will find for example, that in 1871 there were roughly 500,000 ethnic Poles living in the German Ruhrgebiet alone.

Without your peoples enthusiastic help it wouldn't had been possible

Poles helped the Germans enthusiastically? You're kidding, are you?
Torq 26 | 2,371
28 Jan 2010 #122
10 to 1 sick fucks....makes 11 sick fucks with my math...

In 1939 there were about 70 million people in the III Reich, right?

So if your ratio is correct then it means you had an army of 700 million willing helpers
to aid you in your task of killing Jews, Slavs and whoever else was destined to perish.

That's more than the entire population of Europe at that time... but if it makes you
feel better :-)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
28 Jan 2010 #123
Without german build towns, german industrializtion of Silesia and everything you would still be just some dumb peasant. Probably bullying an Ukrainian for some breadcrumb.

Like Poznań with its Polish built old town?:)

Not to mention that Germany granted your folks for centuries a place to find work and education.

Oh yes like the Jagiellonian university in Kraków, oh wait thats one of the old Polish capitals, or maybe you meant the Zamość Univeristy? Or the Lwów university? Or Lublin schools, or Warsaw universities? Oh wait they're all Polish:)

Killed an ukrainian recently?

You have no idea how fast Nathan can run :(

On a more serious note while i know you're not a Nazi apologetist the fact is BdV is ears deep in former Nazi members and Steinbach herself mingled with them freely knowing who they were.
scrappleton - | 831
28 Jan 2010 #124
You have no idea how fast Nathan can run :(

Lol, in which direction?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,787
28 Jan 2010 #125
In 1939 there were about 70 million people in the III Reich, right?

The Wiesenthal center gives out a number of 200.000 german sick *****....not 70 Millions.

Now if we add every eastern peasant with a shovel we would get at least as many...

Just for example, on June 27, 1941, a colonel in the staff of the Germany's Northern Army Group in the Lithuanian city of Kaunas passed a petrol station surrounded by a crowd of people. There were shouts of bravo and clapping, mothers raised their children to give them a better view.
The officer stepped closer and later wrote down what he had seen.

*mods - sorry for that little Polish chat, it's nothing nasty*

Rofl
As if it isn't quite easy to translate your crap....polish idiocy showing again?

And yes, I actually like Poles and call Torqi my chum!
Torq 26 | 2,371
28 Jan 2010 #126
The Wiesenthal center gives out a number of 200.000 german sick fucks....noth 70 Millions

Oh - don't make it too easy for me, please ;) I didn't mean the most prominent of them.

Let's add those who voted for the Nazis, all the SS-men, Gestapo, police, office clerks,
administration authorities, army officers and soldiers and all the other groups involved in
the Holocaust. We should end up with a higher number of sickf**ks, right?

polish idiocy showing again

What's "polish idiocy"? Explain, please :-)

And yes, I actually like Poles and call Torqi my chum!

We must be the strangest pair of chums in Europe, but hey - why not! *buys beer for BB*
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,787
28 Jan 2010 #127
Oh - don't make it too easy for me, please ;) I didn't mean the most prominent of them.

Yes, that's the numbers....200.000 german sick fucks.....and Wiesenthal had decades to get his numbers rights.
They wanted them all, not only the top dogs...till down to the little bureaucrates and Einsatzgruppen-alcoholic!

What's "polish idiocy"? Explain, please :-)

Nikaish idiocy...more precisely...

We should end up with a higher number of sickf**ks, right?

At least as much...but think about it.
I once watched a horrifying movie about the massacre in Babi Jar...around the poor sods on their way to the place where they would shot there was maybe a handful of german soldiers...but hundreds of brutal Ukrainians/whatever with clubs beating the Jews....many more than the Germans.
Nika 2 | 507
28 Jan 2010 #128
What's "polish idiocy"? Explain, please :-)

yeah, me too I'd like to know. Can't find it on Wikipedia....
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,787
28 Jan 2010 #129
Can't find it on Wikipedia....

Now why doesn't that one surprise me...

*buys beer for BB*

thanks :)

I got thirsty! ;)
Nika 2 | 507
28 Jan 2010 #130
Nikaish idiocy...more precisely...

BB you've created a brand new term just for me! Oh thank you. Not only are you funny but also sweet!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
28 Jan 2010 #131
The Wiesenthal center gives out a number of 200.000 german sick fucks....not 70 Millions.

Given that Wiesenthal has incomplete records and goes after killers of Jews only thats woefully incomplete.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,787
28 Jan 2010 #132
Not only are you funny but also sweet!

I am NOT funny and I am NOT sweet!!! *stomps foot*

ask Torq

Given that Wiesenthal has incomplete records and goes after killers of Jews only thats woefully incomplete.

Well, that's about the Germans...as you have seen the institute has it's eyes on non-Germans still too!
Torq 26 | 2,371
28 Jan 2010 #133
I am NOT funny and I am NOT sweet!!! *stomps foot*
ask Torq

I do confirm that - you are not funny at all and certainly not sweet
(but still - the closest to a German friend I've ever had lol ;)).

*off to watch some handball*
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,787
28 Jan 2010 #134
Ditto (Polish of course)

I'm leaving here too....need to build up steam again...enjoying my beer

*waves*
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
28 Jan 2010 #135
Well, that's about the Germans...as you have seen the institute has it's eyes on non-Germans still too!

I generally view Wiesenthal as populist, they're a bit like Spanish Inquisition branding people (including Germans) left right and center.
Harry
28 Jan 2010 #136
Poles helped the Germans enthusiastically? You're kidding, are you?

Sadly he isn't: just do research on the number of Polish Jews who were willing to help the Nazis. If some Polish Jews helped, what do you think some Polish Catholics did?

Or the Lwów university? ... Oh wait they're all Polish:)

Львівський національний університет імені Івана Франка is Polish? That's a good joke! That Ivan Franko National University of Lviv is Polish!

I once watched a horrifying movie about the massacre in Babi Jar...around the poor sods on their way to the place where they would shot there was maybe a handful of german soldiers...but hundreds of brutal Ukrainians/whatever with clubs beating the Jews....many more than the Germans.

You read Ordinary Men? For the small scale shootings it tended to be Germans doing the trigger work and some locals helping out if needed. For the larger scale stuff it was always the Trawnikis doing the trigger work with Germans taking care of the logistics.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
29 Jan 2010 #137
I once watched a horrifying movie about the massacre in Babi Jar...around the poor sods on their way to the place where they would shot there was maybe a handful of german soldiers...but hundreds of brutal Ukrainians/whatever with clubs beating the Jews....many more than the Germans.

Ukrainians didn't kill a single Jew in Babi Jar. There was an auxillary unit of some sick Ukrainian f*cks, who took luggage from the Jews and some did kick those who walked slowly, but neither of them executed a single person.

The decision to kill all the Jews in Kiev was made by the military governor, Major-General Friedrich Eberhardt, the Police Commander for Army Group South, SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, and the Einsatzgruppe C Commander Otto Rasch.It was carried out by combined forces of SS, SD and SiPo.

All were driven in groups of ten down a corridor of SS soldiers, and then shot at the edge of the Babi Yar gorge. The crowd was large enough that most of the men, women, and children could not have known what was happening until it was too late

I am glad they show some movies in Germany to lift the feeling of guilt from the growing young generations. To accuse others, like you did with Iwan Demyaniuk, who was freed by Israel court system, but is now tried in Germany for the 3rd time. But what do you want others to think of Babi Jar? Nazi Germany murdered 34,000 Jews there! And you call it:

there was maybe a handful of german soldiers...but hundreds of brutal Ukrainians

It was some handful...

It is estimated that more than 100,000 Ukrainians, mostly civilians, of whom a significant number were Jews, were murdered by the Nazis there during World War II.[2][9]

According to various estimates, during 1941-1943 between 70,000 and 200 000 Roma people were rounded up and murdered at Babi Yar. Patients of the Ivan Pavlov Psychiatric Hospital were gassed and then dumped into the ravine. Thousands of other Ukrainians were killed at Babi Yar.[18] Among those murdered were 621 members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN).

They murdered everyone, even people in hospitals. No one shot there was done by a Ukrainian.
I can understand your frustration that you might feel from the pressure from all sides, which touches innocent Germans that have nothing to do with it and want to move on, but it doesn't mean that you have to carve out and twist facts to make your point.
Filios1 8 | 1,336
29 Jan 2010 #138
espana

Hey spicola... now that you have had your time in the spotlight, how about you remind the audience now, about how many Aboriginals your proud Spaniards slaughtered? How many of them were unarmed women, children? You're a hypocritical dumb ass. Your country is the sh$t of Europe right now. Good luck being subjugated by Arabs, you dirtbag.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
29 Jan 2010 #139
Start to accept the reality Torqi, it was a European project!
Without your peoples enthusiastic help it wouldn't had been possible!!!

This is true to a certain extent, but it also has to be said that most of mainland Europe was occupied by Germany so in most if not all cases, the authorities didnt have much of a choice with regards to the deportation of Jews. I will say in defence of your avergage German, that a lot of Germans saved the lives of a lot Jewish people.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,787
29 Jan 2010 #140
There was an auxillary unit of some sick Ukrainian f*cks, who took luggage from the Jews and some did kick those who walked slowly, but neither of them executed a single person.

Without them kicking and beating them, preventing them from fleeing, leading them straight to the Germans who shot them blah blah blah...

Again, I'm not the one denying our part!

but it doesn't mean that you have to carve out and twist facts to make your point.

No twisting necessary...

This is true to a certain extent, but it also has to be said that most of mainland Europe was occupied by Germany so in most if not all cases, the authorities didnt have much of a choice with regards to the deportation of Jews.

Look at a map of Europe Shelley,

The german army was busy fighting, the Germans had only so many people available for occupational duty...without willing helpers and collaborateurs everywhere they could have done not much!

The Germans were NOT the almighty "Übermenschen" ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Jan 2010 #141
The Germans were NOT the almighty "Übermenschen" ;)

No but they were people with the guns, if you didnt obey you went to the same cattle wagon as Jews.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,787
29 Jan 2010 #142
I've thought about that...take this movie about Babi Jar...a handfull of german soldiers with MG's against hundreds of hundreds/thousands of Jews and Ukrainians Auxiliaries...how many could they had shot if they had decided to fight?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Jan 2010 #143
So you have hundreds or thousands of frightened people from all over the place and you expect them to fight for their lives with military cohesion and organisation?

Thats ignoring the fact that a few heavy machineguns could easily slaughter the lot of them and as i can recall there were more then a few at Babi Jar.

In regards to Babi Jar, a police battalion company, an SS company, SD, SiPo, all in all more then 400 Germans with 2 armored cars, an unspecified number of MG-43s and MP-4s and you wanted a bunch of frightened women and children to fight for their lives?

Also Ukrainians only herded people to the general location they didnt do the shooting, no one denies there was collaboration but it was not as you put it, an European project, it was planned extremination carried out by military elements of the German nation with loud or quiet approval of much of the nation itself.
Bzibzioh
29 Jan 2010 #144
how many could they had shot if they had decided to fight?

All of them. What did I win?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,787
29 Jan 2010 #145
More than they actually did???
We are talking about 30.000 Jews here...

Also Ukrainians only herded people to the general location they didnt do the shooting, no one denies there was collaboration but it was not as you put it, an European project, it was planned extremination carried out by military elements of the German nation with loud or quiet approval of much of the nation itself.

Not only the german nation....that's the point here!
The Jews had not many friends as they needed them.
That's the main gripe I have with these McCoys of this world....
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Jan 2010 #146
More than they actually did???

Lets assume 40 of them had MP-4s, thats over 1200 bullets that can be shot in a period of about 5 seconds, add to this MG-42s with 250 bullet belts, lets say there were 8, thats 2000 bullets in about 20 seconds.

So only the soldiers with automatic weapons were capable of discharging 3200 bullets in under 30 seconds, reloading time took about 3 seconds.

That should answer your question.

Not only the german nation....that's the point here!

German nation made it possible and save for a handfull of tiny states like Slovakia or Hungary the occupied territories did not help Germans in an organized way, help if indeed came was happening either by collaborators who were few in regards to total population or under German guns.

So no it was not an "European project" it was an all the way German project.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,787
29 Jan 2010 #147
That should answer your question.

Cut the crap...all of them just running away into the near woods would had been enough.
Sure the Germans would had shot some but never all...not even most...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Jan 2010 #148
Cut the crap...all of them just running away into the near woods would had been enough.

How would they all run away in an organized fashion? Telepathy? People were frightened and under the gun, even when facing death our human instinct is to stay put when this happens.

Also that might be your explanation:

All were driven in groups of ten down a corridor of SS soldiers, and then shot at the edge of the Babi Yar gorge. The crowd was large enough that most of the men, women, and children could not have known what was happening until it was too late
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,787
29 Jan 2010 #149
So no it was not an "European project" it was an all the way German project.

Imagine there had been no help...no pointing out of the Jews to the Germans, no hunting them for the Germans, no beating them and delivering them to the shootings, not rounding them up on the trainstations at german orders...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Jan 2010 #150
Imagine there had been no help...no pointing out of the Jews to the Germans

Nothing would change, Germans still had access to popuation census, still controlled the flow of food and still had ample garrison forces to take care of things.

and delivering them to the shootings, not rounding them up on the trainstations at german orders...

Well one thing that would change would be a much higher casuality rate among non-Jewish populations since refusing to carry orders or giving a Jew a slice of bread typically earned a bullet for you and your family, if you're asking could a greater number of Jews be saved? Unlikely, Germans controlled all regions that could facilitate shelter and food to an extent that only a few more individuals could be saved.

Now if we're talking about Hungary, Slovakia or Romania these were indeed German-local projects but again they were made possible and facilitated by Germans, without them they just wouldnt happen.


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