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remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland


Bzibzioh
29 Jan 2010 #181
Another far away country...isn't it interesting that your bestest friends where always from "far away"????

You've got any? Better 'far away' than none.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,809
29 Jan 2010 #182
Now we are all friends! :) Poles are even lending us their best football players.. In South Africa we will also play for Poland, jawoll! ;)
Torq 26 | 2,371
29 Jan 2010 #183
made the Hungarians natural german allies

Yeah - especially in WW2, when they gave shelter to thousands of Poles,
organised Polish schools and government institutions, allowed Polish intelligence
to openly operate form Budapest etc. etc. - some German allies ;)

I find it always curious that your "understanding" of Hungarians is sooo great...

The understanding (again - quotation marks not needed) comes from the fact that
Poland, just like Hungary, was a much bigger country in the past and that we lost
many of our provinces and major cities - just like Hungarians did. The history was
often very similar for Poland and Hungary and the mutual sympathy was equally
present on high-elite level (kings, generals, politicians, poets), just as on average
people level. Two nations from different ethnic backgrounds, with completely
different languages have formed such a formidable bond... eh, if only I was a poet
like Herbert (or at least Gałczyński ;)).
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,809
29 Jan 2010 #184
we lost many of our provinces and major cities - just like Hungarians did.

Eh...Poland got land - Hungary and Germany lost land last time I looked.

some German allies ;)

Well, yes, they were! ;)
Since 1879

wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Dual_Alliance_Between_Austria-Hungary_and_Germany

It was to honor our alliance with Austria-Hungary that Germany got to war 1918.
It was Polands allies who defeated us and took land away from Germany AND Hungary as punishment.
This grudge (between others) led to a new alliance between Germany and Hungary in WWII, to regain what was stolen.

How you are able to build from that an eternal friendship between Poland and Hungary is beyond me...

But maybe it's a slavic, romantic-polish thing! ;)

I'm leaving now....

A beer for all brave participants!
TheOther 5 | 3,831
29 Jan 2010 #185
... and the mutual sympathy was equally present ... just as on average people level.

How would that be possible, Torq? Ordinary people of the 18th century (or earlier) didn't have a chance to meet foreigners; at least not in such large numbers to form a "bond" between countries on a peasant level.
Torq 26 | 2,371
29 Jan 2010 #186
Eh...Poland got land - Hungary and Germany lost land last time I looked.

Look deeper - currently both Poland and Hungary are deprived of huge number
of their former provinces and even after WW1, Poland, even though regained
her independence, was much smaller than before partitions.

Since 1879

Pffff... 131 years? You gotta be kidding me. Poles and Hungarians had common
kings back deep in Middle Ages! Sorry, you can have Klose and Podolski, you can
even have a half of Copernicus, but you can't have Hungarians - they're OUR
brothers! Period.

;)

But maybe it's a slavic thing! ;)

No, it's not - Hungarians are not Slavic and they have identical feelings towards
Poles - so there :-)

How would that be possible, Torq?

Of course, first the bond was formed on the noblemen level (in Poland szlachta
at some point constituted 10% of Polish society, so their ideas were filtered
and spread among peasantry relatively quickly) and then came to the lower classes.
But also, simple, peasant soldiers, fighting alongside Hungarians in Middle Ages
spreaded the friendship among lower classes.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Jan 2010 #187
Why? Because Hungarians and Poles never shared disputed borders? Could hence uphold their "friendship"?

Oh we did share a border and even had a "war" directly after Grunwald, the Hungarian king wanted to invade Poland with 10.000 men but because his nobles told him to go f*ck himself as far as invading Poland he was left with nothing.

The borders werent disputed because there was no political contest they were not disputed because both nations valued each other so highly any disputes got kicked under the rug immidiately.

But maybe it's a slavic, romantic-polish thing! ;)

Last i checked Hungarians are Ugro-finnish ethnicity and its not a Polish thing though i admit the gig we have going with Hungary is special and unprecedented its about 700 years old too.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,809
29 Jan 2010 #188
valued each other so highly any disputes got kicked under the rug immidiately.

So....no re-fighting wars still 65 years afterwards or partying battles from 600 years back? Now then...no wonder...;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Jan 2010 #189
Well they didnt try to exterminate us and resettle survivors to Siberia, what conflicts we had were purely political and even then no one tried to annex anyone etc.

Both the Tuetonic Knights and Nazis tried to wipe Poland out completely its only natural that people celebrate Polands survival.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,809
29 Jan 2010 #190
Well they didnt try to exterminate us and resettle survivors to Siberia, what conflicts we had were purely political and even then no one tried to annex anyone etc.

They just didn't know you well enough....;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Jan 2010 #191
And whats so bad about us? When we were power we let Germans from then much poorer Germany in, you came to a wealthy country that since its beginnings never knew hunger or poverty, you've been treated with respect, no one ever tried to forbid you your way of life etc.

In the end even when the Turks came and you were helpless Poland was there to help you, when you were fighting the 30 years war Poland though a regional power did not invade, we've been the most benevolent European power in our continents history (if you dont count exploiting Nathans grandparents:) ) especially in regards to Germany.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
29 Jan 2010 #192
Look at a map of Europe Shelley,

I know exactly how it looks, but if you what you say is true, how come they had the time to build many observation towers and extensive underground tunnels on Jersey?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
29 Jan 2010 #194
Well, we should say thanks, our bobsleigh team use them to practice (you couldnt make it up if you tried!) also one guy has turned another tunnel into a fish farm...so they've been useful :D

Look, I find this thread pretty harsh and I dont think anyone in their right mind blames your average German for the mass murder of millions of people...I also think its about time, we all moved on..Terrible things happened on all sides...After a lively debate on here a couple of years ago, I took time to read about Dresden and it made me cry...I think people seem to forget that innocent Germans died in WWII too.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,809
29 Jan 2010 #195
I think people seem to forget that innocent Germans died in WWII too.

Who dishes out should take it...
The real problem I have is that many people want to have it as if the Germans woke up one morning and decided to run amok...it wasn't that way!

I still believe we Germans had just and fair reasons to be pissed off....I'm not judging my ancestors.

Well, we should say thanks, our bobsleigh team use them to practice (you couldnt make it up if you tried!) also one guy has turned another tunnel into a fish farm...so they've been useful :D

Our pleasure! :)
Nathan 18 | 1,363
30 Jan 2010 #196
1172: German emperorFriedrich I Barbarossa defends the independence of the Polish dukes
1226: Konrad Mazowiecki asks the Teutonic Knights, a Crusading Order based in Germany, to help subdue the pagan north-eastern tribes of Prussia
1241: the Mongols invade Poland and defeat a joint armyof Henry the Pious (Pajac :) of Silesia and the Teutonic Knightsat the battle of Liegnitz/Wahlstatt

What all this fight is about? There was so much love, support and understanding between both of you. Now put aside your halbas of beer and gaily squeeze each other, mf (my firends ;)

How glorious, eternal and pure the Polish-Hungarian friendship is!

1444: the Polish-Hungarian army is defeated by the Ottomans at Varna, Wladyslaw III is killed and Poland loses Hungary
1526: Ludwig Jagiellonian dies at the battle of Mohacs and the Jagiellonians lose Hungaryand Bohemia

It seems like Hungary wanted to be "lost" from this "friendship" ;) It looks like Polish wanted to hump everything they saw around, even "friends" ;)

And to link this multitude of love and glorious "eternelity and purity":

Abandoned by its allies and threatened with civil war, Czecho-Slovakia was unable to fight its neighbors. Instead, it allowed Germany, Hungary, and Poland to bite off pieces

weeklyuniverse.com/2003/poland.htm
Perfect love triangle?!

Our pleasure!

Everybody knows - you haven't had to say it.

Poland though a regional power did not invade (Germany)

Haha, with what? You left your army in Ukrainian fields together with its gay feathers ;). Now we have nice crops of sweet beets (Poles are sweet when they are asleep or dead:()
Torq 26 | 2,371
30 Jan 2010 #197
1226: Konrad Mazowiecki asks the Teutonic Knights, a Crusading Order based in Germany, to help subdue the pagan north-eastern tribes of Prussia

Which until today is considered one of the greatest Polish blunders of all time
and Mazowiecki is remembered as a traitor or a fool (or both).

It seems like Hungary wanted to be "lost" from this "friendship" ;)

Epic fail, Nathan.

The dates you mentioned are the best examples of Polish-Hungarian brotherhood
in arms, fighting muslim invaders and the loss is mentioned because Poles and Hungarians
had common kings back then - Władysław Warneńczyk and Ludwik Jagielończyk were kings
of both Poland and Hungary.

If two nations say that they are brothers today, just like they were for many
centuries and they express authentic, genuine sympathy and feelings of kinship
towards each other on countless occasions (elites as well as ordinary people)
then I guess it's not for others to question their friendship.
You can be jelaous of course, that's understandable when you have no friends
of your own. Ukraine - "Billy nae mates" of Europe ;)

Poles are sweet when they are asleep or dead

What? Have you been drinking so early in the morning, Nat?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
30 Jan 2010 #198
Nathan are you jealous because Ukraine has no friends or allies and nobody wants it as anything more then a tool? At no point in history was your country equal to Poland or treated as equal, today we're trying to make up for it but still there's little monkeys like you that make our job difficult:)
Nathan 18 | 1,363
31 Jan 2010 #199
What? Have you been drinking so early in the morning, Nat?

Yes, it was Ukrainian horilka made out of outstanding sweet beets (*Nathan scratches his head not completely understanding where that sweetness comes from* ;) I am just testing my radar of tolerance, Torq ;)

because Ukraine has no friends or allies

Well, off the hook I may mention Georgia, which is our friend and ally. But I see also many warm feelings coming from Poland and Germany and I dearly want to hug all of you, guys and girls. Also I feel that Crow will raise his whole country to help his brothers in time of hardship. So - plenty, sweety.

At no point in history was your country equal to Poland or treated as equal

I don't know why you always feel subservient, Sokrates. I consider you as my peer. Please, don't bow - I like you the way you are, my little old brat (English word, not Ukrainian ;)

still there's little monkeys like you that make our job difficult

Nobody asked you to enter our jungle - the rules here are different from those of pampered little diaper-destroyers like yourself. Learn to survive or get the hell out ;)
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
31 Jan 2010 #200
Remember and forgive.

'Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall receive mercy'


Bolshevik Revolution, Holodomor, Holocaust all in a continuum.

'Satan must be let loose for a little while'
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
2 Feb 2010 #201
Prussia was good for you - we should just annex you again and be done with it!

Prussia - a mostly stolen land which grew wider by the sword and murder, out of a tiny shithole given to the Gerries by the ruler of Mazowsze, if I remeber correctly.

Prussians kissed Polish king's shoe once. They will again.

PS.
BB, you lost your cool completely, matey.
pawian 161 | 9,971
6 Oct 2012 #202
No one is denying that Poles made huge sacrifices, and that there were countless heroes.

Good point.
Dziewanna - | 6
16 Oct 2015 #203
Bratwurst Boy got completely carried out by Jewish/Soviet/German propaganda. Are you saying that Germans waged war against entire Europe with 3000 people and somehow succeeded to go on for 6 years???

How come they didn't even start exterminating Jews until the middle of 1942 after The Wannsee Conference? Why would Germans start with Poles? They killed 3mln of Poles because they were so enthusiastic? Why only in Poland there was introduced a law saying that for hiding a Jew whole family/household/village was to be killed and left in a public view. Maybe because Germans were so exasperated by the Polish will to oppose them? They did not form a single unit made out of Polish citizens!!!

Do you know who those compelled German speaking Polish citizens were? Fully Germanized Jews (since Bismarck era) who proved to be invaluable collaborators. They are now trying to white wash the history so nobody has a doubt who the sole victims of the WWII were. There are huge amount of money that they are trying to extort from Poland and much more.

Jewish Ghetto Police, Section 13(Jewish gestapo) was staging actions of sending a Jew to ask for help, if he was let in German gestapo was right behind to kill the Poles, they were extorting money from their fellow Jews, staging a trap scientific conferences etc.

Zagiew (Torch) was a Nazi-collaborationist Jewish agent provocateur group founded and sponsored by the Germans and led by Abraham Gancwajch.The Nazis had over a thousand Jewish secret agents in Poland and some were permitted by their Gestapo handlers to possess and bear firearms. They were instrumental in organizing the Hotel Polski affair in Warsaw, a German scheme to lure thousands of wealthy Jews under false promises of evacuation to South America into a trap and extort their money and valuables before killing most of them.

Jews did not fight. They could not be persuaded to fight for themselves or for the country as they did not feel much affiliation with it. They would gladly accept a German rule or Soviet rule and they did. They were used, lied to and eventually sent to death camps,gulags or expelled under Soviet regime to Israel.

People fail to appreciate German organizational skills. The Final Solution to the Jewish Question was well planned.
They kept the Jewish families together for as long as possible, right up to the penultimate or even ultimate stage. And because they persistently lied, despite the hunger and terrible conditions they were always given some hope that they were only waiting to be resettled somewhere.

For 45 years the West was fed mostly distorted, German-Nazi-invented, and Soviet-communist-propagated history of Poland. Some of it was brought from then-communist-oppressed Poland by Jewish ex-Stalinist executioners, expelled by their comrades during party purges. They enthusiastically grabbed once in a life time opportunity to whitewash their personal criminal record and told stories of anti-Semitic primitives who collaborated with Germans in extermination of Jews. The purpose of course was to excuse the torture and murders of non-Jewish Poles by Stalinists, many of Jewish roots. The Poles, hated by the world, could not count on any understanding or sympathy and would most likely not obtain any help or support needed in their struggle with the Soviet-imposed regime. Many Jewish scholars had an opportunity to present the true history of Poland, there is plenty of evidence and many archival materials still survived despite deliberate attempt to destroy those materials when the communist regime ended in 1989. These scholars were entrusted with knowledge Poles could not present because they were shut behind the Iron Curtain. Instead, these pseudo-scholars abused their privilege and told one-sided, Judeocentric, tunnel-vision myths. They conveniently skipped the shameful parts such as, what was Jewish attitude toward Poles in crisis, during struggle for Polish independence before 1918, how Jews fought with pride for Germans in WW I, how they negotiated with Germans about Jewish autonomy on Polish lands, how they loathed Poles and did not want to assimilate - in 1931 a census found that 85% of Polish Jews did not speak basic Polish. Instead many spoke fluent German. How they allied themselves en masse with the other mortal enemy of Poland - communist Soviet Union. How they murdered Poles during the Soviet invasion of 1939 and how they denounced Poles to Gestapo. And finally how they persecuted, tortured, and murdered Poles during post-war Stalinist terror. Many innocent people suffered Poles and Jews too. Despite imperfect relationship between Poles and Jews, during WWII Poles fought on behalf of all Polish citizens. If the number of known Polish helpers seems low, that's because hundreds of thousands died in the process. Nobody has the right to "decide" Polish history. Certainly not Western museums.This slender of Poles will stop.
Lyzko 23 | 6,638
16 Oct 2015 #204
According to today's paper, Poland remains the one EU-country with no extant law for the restitution of private property to its rightful owners (or their heirs)!

Such commemorations are bound to become another lightning rod for extremists, ultra-right-wing nationalists and other fringies out here.

Pity that Premier Kopacz couldn't do a Merkel and call for a little peace and civility:-)
Dziewanna - | 6
17 Oct 2015 #205
The first transport reached Auschwitz on June 14, 1940. It consisted of 728 Poles and included soldiers who had fought against the German invasion in September 1939, members of underground independence organizations, secondary-school and university students, scouts, Catholic priests. . For the first almost 2 years of genocidal activity of the camp Poles were the largest group of the prisoners in Auschwitz!!!

Sadly the winners of the war rewrote the history so it was more palatable for the rest of he world.

On Sept 1st Germany attacked Poland from West, South and North. On Sept 17 Soviet Union attacked from the East. The countries partitioned the land according to the former Ribbentrop- Molotov agreement. Germans implemented their plan of total annihilation of Polish nation as Hitler commended :to kill "without pity or mercy, all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language."

"All Poles will disappear from the world.... It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles."

In the first 2 years of the war Poland lost:

45% of her doctors,
- 57% of her attorneys
- 40% of her professors,
- 30% of her technicians,
- more than 18% of her clergy
- most of her journalists.

Young Polish men were forcibly drafted into the German army.
- The Polish language was forbidden. Only the German language was allowed.
- All secondary schools and colleges were closed.
- The Polish press was liquidated. Libraries and bookshops were burned.
- Polish art and culture were destroyed.
- Polish churches and snyagogues were burned.

holocaustforgotten.com/poland.htm

Lyzko,
Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about and happily gobble up anything that ultra communistic left wing spits out. Some people live their entire lives in oblivion as facts, truth, historical accuracy is simply too much for their synapses to process.

3mln Poles killed by Germans, 200,000 children taken forcibly from their parents to be Germanized and never reunited with their families, min of 50,000 killed for helping Jews alone, 80% of leadership class massacred in the first 2 years of the war, 2mln of upper echelon in the Eastern Poland sent to gulags in cattle wagons - coordinated action by Soviets and Germans who carried 4 conferences on how best to eradicate a memory of a nation that once was. Libraries were burned, art collections, valuables, sculptures put in cargo trains that travelled incessantly for 6 years to the West. Antique carved door with door frames were pulled out from buildings, thoroughbred horses, even reach soil of what is now Ukraine was shipped to Germany. Massive, systematic looting of anything that could have even a smallest value. People from the Western part of Poland were ordered to abandon their homes and resettle wherever so new german masters could move in. This is how my family lost their 13 bedroom home and a lot of land. I am a living rightful heir.

After the war, communistic regime so enthusiastically embraced by Jews who made up 80% of the Stalinist administrative apparatus in Poland, enforced it's rule. All private property was repossessed. People were crammed into very small, ugly concrete appartment buildings. Our home became a school and is serving this purpose until now. We were given priority to buy only small part the land before anybody else just few years ago. My entire hard working upper class family cannot afford it as salaries were and still are so low compared to western countries. In 1945 cities with few exceptions were razed to the ground, a skeleton of a country that it once was. Whatever Soviets didn't take during their occupation (including dignity of 100,000 women many gang raped to death), the communistic regime made sure to despoil. Poland that suffered the biggest civil losses and destruction was prohibited by Stalin to participate in the Marshal Plan, financial assistance extended to the Western countries to rebuilt themselves. Poles were left to their own devices and were rebuilding their country with bare hands. My husband's family owned a home just outside of Lwow. 1/3 of what used to be Poland is now in Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia. How should Polish citizens seek their rights to restitution? Why Poland that didn't wage war against anybody, that was shafted by all the allied countries and sold to be devoured by a psychopath Stalin with his psychopath Jewish comrades : Jacob Berman, Wanda Wasilewska, Helena Wolinska-Brus, Stefan Michnik is suppose to pay nowadays value with interest and speculative rent for "occupying" real estate for the last 70 years. You are sick, greedy, inbred lot that never did anything for the country that provided shelter to you for over 1000 years when nobody wanted you.

The three very high level Jewish officers -- Minc, Berman, and Zambrowski -- in the post-war oppressive Communist institutions,
are responsible for the death of 500,000 Polish Home Army officers and opponents of the regime

"All three communist leaders who dominated Poland between 1948 and 1956, [Jacob] Berman, Boleslaw Bierut, and Hilary Minc, were Jews." [MACDONALD, 1998, p. 63] In 1976, ethnic Polish anti-Jewish sentiment was now "due to the Jews who occupy leading positions in Poland's government and endeavor to introduce a governmental structure that the majority of Poles do not wish to have."

Jewish historians Pawel Korzec and Jean-Charles Szurek also "admit [that] the Jewish youth and proletariat played an important ('although not exclusive') role in the apparatus of oppression." [BARTOSZEWSKI, p. 18] (...)

The quote cropped - only up to one hundred copy/pasted words from one source are allowed on PF
Dolnoslask
17 Oct 2015 #206
Dziewanna Glad there are people like you that understand understand our history, and able to stand up and tell it how it was.

So many of the new generation have been brainwashed by liberal leftist communist propaganda, or they cannot or will not believe the horror of what was inflicted by outsiders on Poland

You like me were either in Poland during this time or in my case the horrific experiences of my parents were handed down to me, lest i never forget the suffering, and that I may grow up and strive to build a better future for myself and to help others where i can.

My parents were sent to Siberia, had farms, land and money taken from them, but because they/I are Polish no one will stand up and make demands for our rights.
Melonie
17 Oct 2015 #207
I am in the U.S.A. most of my family is from Poland. They left along time ago. Some didn't make it though because of the Germans. I love Polish people , they are always so full of love and life. I just wanted to say some thing :)
Lyzko 23 | 6,638
17 Oct 2015 #208
@Dziewanna,

In fact, it is YOU who are in error! Read any report from the World Jewish Congress, as well as responsible Polish dailies, and you will realize that what I've stated is a plain fact. One can respect a people as well as recognize their shortcomings. As I acknowledge the faults of Israel (not to mention the craven response to the Shoah by my own American Jewish fellow citizens during WWII!!), for instance in dealing with the Palestinian issue, Poles too (as have Germans, too belately the Austrians and the Swiss after them) must fess up to the skeletons in their closet and not merely shift the blame from the accomplice to the aggressor (Nazi Germany) back to the victims:-)
Lolek222 - | 80
18 Oct 2015 #209
What skeletons? There are no skeletons. Why can't u take it?
edited
Lyzko 23 | 6,638
18 Oct 2015 #210
Thanks!! Why don't you quite posting nonsense and start READING some sense:-)
edited


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