The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 174

Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census.


piktoonis - | 86
6 Jan 2012 #61
there you go kurierwilenski.lt/porownanie-sytuacji-polakow-na-litwie-i-litwinow-w-polsce/

I wonder, if stated facts are true, then why didn't EU step in?
Gregrog 4 | 100
6 Jan 2012 #62
You mean recognising the government of national unity in Warsaw rather than the self-appointed unelected government in London.

So this government was good between 1939 and 1945 but later was not? "Government of national unity" imposted by invader was more democratic then the one which was continuation of legal government of Poland? You are very intelligent but at the same time stupid like hell.

I would certainly not blame you: I lent him the money and I failed to collect it. Much as Poles failed to hold the free elections promised to them.

And what if Ironside was well recognised with long tradition and respect worldwide bank, which told you it is safe? Would you still be so stupid to not blame institution which mislead, misinform, cheated you?
Harry
6 Jan 2012 #63
So this government was good between 1939 and 1945 but later was not?

Least worst actually.

"Government of national unity" imposted by invader was more democratic then the one which was continuation of legal government of Poland?

The TRJN was not imposed by an invader (that was the RTRP). You should also note that the Prime Minister of the Polish government-in-exile was one of the main people behind the TRJN.

Would you still be so stupid to not blame institution which mislead, misinform, cheated you?

I'd blame the person who took my money. And blame myself for not collecting it.
OP Ironside 50 | 11,142
6 Jan 2012 #64
Same old song, still full of hate towards lithuanians.

You tell me in what way facts can be full of hate ? I'm all ears here!
Yet another of my questions which will be conveniently ignored by you.

Nothing new, when out of ideas, start insulting others and falsify history.

Do you claim that 60% of Poles on said territories as opposed to about 3% of Lithuanians is untrue? Are you sane ?
Do not discus with me , go and discus with facts !
What a dick!

Yes, that is Ironside's standard practice.

No Harry it is your standard practice. You got this thing about scoring points on the forum - once you start spinning, lying and generally being an ashole there is no discussion with you. So I will point out your lies and than I will ignore you in this thread. Good day. By the way was your father around much when you were growing up?

You mean recognising the government of national unity in Warsaw rather than the self-appointed unelected government in London.

lie number one - government in London was legal government of independent Poland. Contrary to Soviet controlled government in Warsaw.

So even your own sources shows you to be a liar!

Well, Walsh was banned even if for a little while.
Its only presentation of way you spin lies , I have done it the Harry;s way !

Of course they were interested in a land grab: the Polish state had grabbed their land and claimed it to be part of Poland!

There go your claim that you are not anti-Polish and another lie I'm afraid.

I wonder, if stated facts are true, then why didn't EU step in?

that for me to know and for you to find out. It is easy to be some kind arbiter here and judge all my quotes and links, time for you to do some homework.

You find out why the EU did;t step in, and while you are on it find out about Lithuanian-Polish agreement from 1994 ( which Lithuania as usual do not respect),
Harry
6 Jan 2012 #65
By the way was your father around much when you were growing up?

What were we saying about you insulting people when you know you have lost the discussion?

lie number one - government in London was legal government of independent Poland. Contrary to Soviet controlled government in Warsaw.

No it was not, as is shown by the actions of the last Prime Minister of the London-based Polish government.

Well, Walsh was banned even if for a little while.

No it was. Not ever. Which is why you have been unable to find even a single source to support your lie.

Do feel free to come back with yet more lies, it'll just demonstrate how much you know you have badly lost this argument.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,846
6 Jan 2012 #66
Well, Walsh was banned even if for a little while

'Walsh' has never been banned per se although it was strongly discouraged in schools for a time.

By the way was your father around much when you were growing up?

wtf? what kind of argument is that?
Harry
6 Jan 2012 #67
Walsh' has never been banned per se although it was strongly discouraged in schools for a time.

A commonly held misconception. From the another page of the BBC article which Ironside linked to this one:

At the end of lessons, the child left with the Welsh Not was punished. Yet according to historian John Davies, it is unlikely that the use of the Welsh Not was as widespread as the mythology of the 20th century maintains.

There is strong evidence of the Welsh Not in Carmarthen, Cardigan and Meirionnydd before 1870, but it was never official government policy. A number of school organisations used it, from the national schools of the Anglicans to the British schools of the nonconformists, but attendance at these schools was voluntary and if a headmaster had a Welsh Not policy it was with the approval of the parents.

bbc/wales/history/sites/themes/society/language_education.shtml

Ironside: By the way was your father around much when you were growing up?

wtf? what kind of argument is that?

One which is, sadly, 100% classic Ironside.
boletus 30 | 1,366
6 Jan 2012 #68
'Walsh' has never been banned per se although it was strongly discouraged in schools for a time.

Do you mean this?:

The Welsh Not or Welsh Note was a punishment system used in some Welsh schools in the late 19th and early 20th century to dissuade children from speaking Welsh. It was represented as a piece of wood, inscribed with the letters "WN", that was hung around the necks of children who spoke Welsh during the school day.

/wiki/Welsh_Not

I also stumbled upon this little rosy piece here,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_relationship_between_the_Welsh_and_the_English

Here is just one such pearl, of many:
The concerns of the English political establishment were shown in the 1847 Royal Commission on Welsh education, which reported that "The Welsh language is a vast drawback to Wales and a manifold barrier to the moral progress and commercial prosperity of the people. It is not easy to over-estimate its evil effects. As a result, English-only schools were set up in much of Wales, and children speaking Welsh were punished with the "Welsh Not".
OP Ironside 50 | 11,142
6 Jan 2012 #69
wtf? what kind of argument is that?

just a question

Walsh' has never been banned per se although it was strongly discouraged in schools for a time.

I was professing discussion the Harry's way.

I know it wasn't banned formally but as you say was discouraged or discriminated against long enough. By the world power while nobody contested the UK territorial integrity.

Poland was freshly reborn country. Surrounded by stronger enemies bend on destroying her with minority claiming ancient Polish land and aiming for independence. I say that certain attitude - you are in Poland, respect the Polish state - was only understandable course of action.

No a big deal really given that in the Soviet Union ethnicities, nations and religions or social group have been eradicated form the face of the Earth..

That in Germany anybody getting in the way of Hitler come to sorry end.
That France and Britain held unto their colonies by the right of the sword and cunning.
Harry is all an ideology in action - no place for a balance or the truth.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,846
6 Jan 2012 #70
Do you mean this?:

yes, I suppose so.
As we are all wiki scholars these days;

The use of the "not" was recorded in the 18th century; it was also commonly known as the 'cwstom', the 'Welsh stick' and the 'Welsh lead' (a lump of lead).[1] The practice was mentioned in the 1847 Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales. Though highly critical of many aspects of Welsh culture, some of the inspectors commented on the existence of the practice of using "nots" as being arbitrary and cruel. The report did not endorse the practice. The reports also clearly show that the vast majority of education in Welsh Wales was still conducted in Welsh.

Was the Polish language ever discouraged like this?
Harry
6 Jan 2012 #71
children speaking Welsh were punished with the "Welsh Not"

Thanks for that. As has already been pointed out above, "There is strong evidence of the Welsh Not in Carmarthen, Cardigan and Meirionnydd before 1870, but it was never official government policy. A number of school organisations used it, from the national schools of the Anglicans to the British schools of the nonconformists, but attendance at these schools was voluntary and if a headmaster had a Welsh Not policy it was with the approval of the parents."

Was the Polish language ever discouraged like this?

I'm pretty sure that the Prussians/Germans tried something similar but would need to double check for sources.
OP Ironside 50 | 11,142
6 Jan 2012 #72
Was the Polish language ever discouraged like this?

Absolutely !
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
6 Jan 2012 #73
Was the Polish language ever discouraged like this?

Not only discouraged but outright forbidden by both Russians and Prussians, the only occupying power that allowed official use of Polish language was Austria, hence the vast majority of interbelleum legislative cadre, teachers and such hailed from Lwów as it was the only place they could be educated in Polish.
boletus 30 | 1,366
6 Jan 2012 #74
Was the Polish language ever discouraged like this?

In Russian partition, especially after the failed January Uprising (1864), all remnants of Polish state has been eliminated and the administration was completely Russified. Russian language was introduced to all levels of education system. Even lessons of optional Polish were taught in Russian. Only the religion was conducted in Polish. What I remember from various books I read long time ago, the high schools were run with military efficiency, boys were wearing military uniforms and they were subjected to serious corporal punishments at times.

In Prussian Partition schooling was compulsory to some age, and all children were subject to germanization. Forceful German education provoked opposition even among children. In the early twentieth century, a wave of strikes broke out of schools. It started in 1901 with strike of Wrzesnia children, protesting against repressions and corporal punishments.
Harry
6 Jan 2012 #75
All of which makes one wonder what the hell Poles, as people who had so recently suffered from having their own language suppressed as a minority language in the Russian empire, were thinking when they suppressed the languages of the minorities in the Polish republic. Surely they would have been well positioned to understand the resentment that the policy would cause and also know how successful it would be!
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
6 Jan 2012 #76
Very simple Harry, after 120 odd years of brutal russification they counter-reacted with polonization, quite understandable given those times and attitudes not only in Poland but worldwide.
Harry
6 Jan 2012 #77
Very simple Harry, after 120 odd years of brutal russification they counter-reacted with polonization

That would only make sense if it was Russians which they imposed it on: but it was Ukrainians and Belarussians and Lithuanians and Jews that they imposed it on!
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
6 Jan 2012 #78
Of course it makes sense. Had it not been for the Russian empire those Ukrainians and Belorussians most likely would have not existed as they would have been long polonized as it had been the trend up until the downfall of Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth which btw wasn't forced or anything like that just a natural influence of dominant culture on the society, trickling down from the upper classes and slowly taking root in the lower classes. Very common social dynamic, examples of which history of humanity is rife with. Simply put the Russians presence disrupted this quite natural process and Poles given the chance tried to reverse it, though it was too late as the separate national identities had already formed.
Harry
6 Jan 2012 #79
Had it not been for the Russian empire those Ukrainians and Belorussians most likely would have not existed as they would have been long polonized as it had been the trend up until the downfall of Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth

Even if we accept that logic (which I doubt would have found many fans among Ukrainians and Belorussians in 1919), we are still left with Jews and Lithuanians.

which btw wasn't forced or anything like that just a natural influence of dominant culture on the society, trickling down from the upper classes and slowly taking root in the lower classes. Very common social dynamic, examples of which history of humanity is rife with.

Interesting point, but one which assumes that if WWI hadn't happened Poles would by now not exist, as they would have been Russified or Germanized or Austrianated (I may well not have the precisely correct words there).
piktoonis - | 86
6 Jan 2012 #80
You tell me in what way facts can be full of hate ? I'm all ears here!

Don't hide behind "facts". Your almost every comment is full of hate.

Do not discus with me , go and discus with facts !What a dick!

Insults and only insults. Do you have any real proof of nationalities in those regions. 1931 census doesn't count.

that for me to know and for you to find out. It is easy to be some kind arbiter here and judge all my quotes and links, time for you to do some homework.You find out why the EU did;t step in, and while you are on it find out about Lithuanian-Polish agreement from 1994 ( which Lithuania as usual do not respect),

Then maybe you should tell us all why EU doesn't step in? Did you read said treaty? I read it all and couldn't find any article that was violated, yet Poland violated at least one (poke it's nose in Lithuania's internal matters)

By the way was your father around much when you were growing up?

What does my father have to do with you spreading hatred and lies?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,846
6 Jan 2012 #81
This is probably off topic.....so let me apologise in advance, although it is a natural digression IMHO.
Are the very complicated grammar systems of Cymraeg and Polish due to their being oppressed/suppressed, and therefore kept by their supporters as more pure, unlike, say, English whose grammar has been more and more simplified with wider and wider use?

Just a little linguistic thought, vaguely connected with the OP.
Thank you for all your interesting replies to my first question.
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
6 Jan 2012 #82
Interesting point, but one which assumes that if WWI hadn't happened Poles would by now not exist, as they would have been Russified or Germanized or Austrianated (I may well not have the precisely correct words there).

You don't get, do you or put it simply you just don't want to get it... anyways huge difference between a fully culturally self-aware, 800 year old independent country that all of a sudden gets occupied and partitioned and 'nations' who only briefly enjoyed independence at much earlier stages of history and whose ruling classes long had chosen different cultural affinity.. please (I really do not want explain the logic behind it, you are an intelligent man, you should be able to figure it out)

we are still left with Jews and Lithuanians.

sigh.. nitpicking rarely defies logic... yes I meant Lithuanians as well , Jews...?! Jews have always been Jews, why on earth are we talking Jews again.. why not Serbia..? Well just kidding Harry,please don't mention Serbia or I'll puke.

Let's get away from Poland for a bit because something tells me you in your zeal to stomp out the Polska See No Evil mentality (which, you're right, is annoying and totally counter productive particularly for its adherers) have gone slightly over the board and lost your ability to be objective.

And here comes Scandinavia; Finland for the most part of her history was part of Sweden right until 1809 when Russians took it. Yet only after 1809 the separate strong independent Finnish identity arose, simply because Finns realized that being under the Russian boot blows so many goats soon there wouldn't be any goats left and as such the fate of humanity without any goat cheese around would be unthinkable (I'm pretty sure French would not stand for this including me even though I'm not French). But if it weren't for the Russian Empire today' Sweden would be much larger probably in some sort of union with Finland, much in the same way as Scotland is with England. And I guarantee you there would be more Swedish speakers in Finland than the current 10%.

edit: hehe 'slightly overboard' and not 'over the board', I mixed that up with all all over the board, which kind of makes sense in this particular context ;)
OP Ironside 50 | 11,142
6 Jan 2012 #83
What does my father have to do with you spreading hatred and lies?

What ? its wasn't addressed to you. Nice to see that you wont miss an opportunity to spout your insults one more time.

Don't hide behind "facts".

Strange that you would hate facts so much. Maybe because they are opposite of the fiction you are so found of.

Do you have any real proof of nationalities in those regions. 1931 census doesn't count.

plenty but you will discard them as easily as anything I have posted already!
Come on you do the job now,

Then maybe you should tell us all why EU doesn't step in? Did you read said treaty? I read it all and couldn't find any article that was violated,

No, I said you tell me.

yet Poland violated at least one (poke it's nose in Lithuania's internal matters)

Really? Any prove of above or just more lies?
By the way your state is violating at least an agreement with Poland from 1994.Do what you so the best (being stupid) and Poland will poke you with the boot.
piktoonis - | 86
7 Jan 2012 #84
hat ? its wasn't addressed to you. Nice to see that you wont miss an opportunity to spout your insults one more time.

Oh, misread that one. Still throwing insults is your feat.

No, I said you tell me.

Well, i don't know, maybe there is nothing violated...

Really? Any prove of above or just more lies?By the way your state is violating at least an agreement with Poland from 1994.Do what you so the best (being stupid) and Poland will poke you with the boot.

Lets see, one of articles in the treaty says that each country will deal with it's internal matters itself, without any influence from other country. Political pressure from Poland, demands, threats looks like intervention to other countries courtyard, or maybe i am wrong... Enlighten us oh the wisest Ironside
Harry
7 Jan 2012 #85
^ Time to give up the discussion: you'll get nowhere and may be warned for going off-topic.
gumishu 11 | 5,681
7 Jan 2012 #86
Are the very complicated grammar systems of Cymraeg and Polish due to their being oppressed/suppressed, and therefore kept by their supporters as more pure, unlike, say, English whose grammar has been more and more simplified with wider and wider use?

the very complicated Polish grammar and language developed into what it is now mostly before Poland was subjected to any foreign rule (foreign rule only started in the 18th century and the language was mostly already formed) - Russian grammar is not a lot simpler than Polish (a bit simpler yes - phonetics is a bit different story) - it's still complicated enough for English native speakers and this is neither because Russia was once under the Mongol boot nor because it was an imperialistic state later on

if you think of complexity of the Slavic grammar (it's most probably true that Polish is the most complicated one - but you haven't seen Lithuanian with it's 16 different participles compared to present day 4 Polish participles and 2 participles of English) it's just a different approach to express different relations between objects and doers in this world and it is in big part an inherited system (if you just read some linguistic stuff about the origins of both Polish and English languages) -
southern 75 | 7,096
7 Jan 2012 #87
Finland for the most part of her history was part of Sweden right until 1809 when Russians took it. Yet only after 1809 the separate strong independent Finnish identity arose, simply because Finns realized that being under the Russian boot blows so many goats soon there wouldn't be any goats left and as such the fate of humanity without any goat cheese around would be unthinkable

So occupation by Sweden is good while occupation by Russia is bad?What about national identity arisal in 19th century all over Europe regardless of occupant status?
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
7 Jan 2012 #88
So occupation by Sweden is good while occupation by Russia is bad?

Of course, no comparison, what kind of stupid question is that..? In today's Latvia and Estonia there is a saying (spoken to this day) 'The good old Swedish times', pertaining to the 100 years of Swedish rule back in 17th and 18th century. A few years back there was an official petition signed in Estonia for a return of Swedish rule. Of course it was a bit of joke, a funny stunt by an opposition party disillusioned with corrupted Estonian officials but it did gain quite a popularity and it clearly goes to show what sort of sentiment and remembrance towards Sweden there is in those countries. Do I need to tell you what Latvians and Estonians think of Russia? LOL
southern 75 | 7,096
7 Jan 2012 #89
In today's Latvia and Estonia there is a saying (spoken to this day) 'The good old Swedish times', pertaining to the 100 years of Swedish rule back in 17th and 18th century

I didn't see any Pole or Czech particularly fond of the good old Swedisch times of their countries occupation.

A few years back there was an official petition signed in Estonia for a return of Swedish rule.

In Ukraine and Belarus it happens every now and then some petition for return to Russian rule it is not unpopular idea among the masses.

Do I need to tell you what Latvians and Estonians think of Russia?

Do you have any idea what Russians think about Latvians and Estonians?

youtube.com/watch?v=Sg8329uIKcw
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,846
7 Jan 2012 #90
the very complicated Polish grammar and language developed into what it is now mostly before Poland was subjected to any foreign rule (foreign rule only started in the 18th century and the language was mostly already formed)

that's my point though........Wheras English grammar has been much simplified since then, Polish has not, which could be due to political reasons, IMHO. I will have to look into it.


Home / History / Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census.
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.