The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 173

Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census.


piktoonis - | 86
10 Jan 2012 #121
Even if the census was alerted in favour of Poles (which I doubt as there is no evidence to support that claim)it couldn't have been alerted too much.Lets go to the extreme and assume for the sake of the discussion that it was 10%. Still it gives 50% of Poles in the Wilno area.

Vilnius city had majority of jews (>50%) before ww1, however surrounding lands (80% of population lived NOT in cities) had more lithuanians than poles. After Zeligowski afair, number of lithuanians started to diminish due to oppression, polonisation, colonization, mass migration and other factors. No wonder lithuanians contituted minority at the start of ww2.

in Kovno that do not bother with numbers or percentages

That area had strong lithuanian majority, so wonder there.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,844
10 Jan 2012 #122
hat area had strong lithuanian majority, so wonder there.

That area had a strong Polish minority but due to oppression, Lithuaniansation and migration there few Poles left.
piktoonis - | 86
10 Jan 2012 #123
Strong polish minority near Kaunas? Max 5%, i wouldn't give more.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,844
10 Jan 2012 #124
Vilnius city had majority of jews (>50%) before ww1, however surrounding lands (80% of population lived NOT in cities) had more lithuanians than poles.

That would have mean that census had been falsified outright. I cannot agree with your claim. For one you have no prove to the contrary and why would they lie only in case of Lithuania ?If they (as you claim) made from 35% into-60% and from 25% or more into 3% what stop there ?

Why not go for Ukrainians and locals and made up all that numbers into favourable for Poles?

Logic doesn't support your claim nor Polish historiography be it before the war, after the war in the Soviet Poland(and they would be most sympathetic to your claims)or at the present where a serious main stream historiography agrees as to the fact that before the war Poles constituted unquestionable majority in the Wilno area.

Kovno before the wwI ?at least 15% if not more.
piktoonis - | 86
10 Jan 2012 #125
That would have mean that census had been falsified outright. I cannot agree with your claim. For one you have no prove to the contrary and why would they lie only in case of Lithuania ?If they (as you claim) made from 35% into-60% and from 25% or more into 3% what stop there ?

And what census is 100% right? If you would use 1921, then it is obvious it was "fixed", Lithuania and Poland were battling over that region in League of Nations, so the more you have your people there, the better is your claim.

fact that before the war Poles constituted unquestionable majority in the Wilno area.

Of course they had majority. Lithuanian teachers, priests imprisoned, simple lithuanian folk oppressed. What do you expect?
OP Ironside 48 | 9,844
10 Jan 2012 #126
And what census is 100% right?

Never claimed that it was 100% right.
The point is that it doesn't matter what way you look at the census, Poles were majority there before the WWII and that is the point.

Of course they had majority. Lithuanian teachers, priests imprisoned, simple lithuanian folk oppressed. What do you expect?

The same goes for Lithuanian actions against Polish minority before the war.
I don't see as your grievances and wallowing in being wronged have any bearings on the fact that Poles constituted majority on said territory?

You seem to see a connection here I fail to see.
Harry
10 Jan 2012 #127
Today(yesterday) I claimed that you have not said something which you very clearly should have said.

And here we have the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion': in your opinion I should have said something; however, the fact is that I did not say anything remotely similar to it. So when you claimed that I had said it, you were actually lying.

In the UK schools, are you saying that wasn't banned?Maybe was prohibited unofficially ?

In some Welsh schools in the 19th century, it was banned during school hours and with the permission of the parents. However, you claimed that the language itself was banned in the 1920s and 1930, which is just another lie from you.

That assessment is from 2003. Right now

So perhaps you should supply us with more up-to-date sources? You supplied that source and mentioned nothing about how old it was when you wanted it to support your claims.

That area had a strong Polish minority but due to oppression, Lithuaniansation and migration there few Poles left.

Sources or it didn't happen.

The same goes for Lithuanian actions against Polish minority before the war.

You mean like sentencing newspaper editors to death? Oh, sorry, I forgot that only Poles passed such sentences.
piktoonis - | 86
10 Jan 2012 #128
The point is that it doesn't matter what way you look at the census, Poles were majority there before the WWII and that is the point.

Before ww2, yes, before ww1, no.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,844
10 Jan 2012 #129
before ww1, no.

hey you yourself claimed that before the WWI Poles were majority !

You mean like sentencing newspaper editors to death? Oh, sorry, I forgot that only Poles passed such sentences.

Are you supporting that claim - that only Poles passed such sentences ?

So when you claimed that I had said it, you were actually lying.

I never claimed that you had said something (and if I did it is clearly misspelling ), I said that you haven't said something which you should have said.
Harry
10 Jan 2012 #130
I never claimed that you had said something (and if I did it is clearly misspelling ), I said that you haven't said something which you should have said.

No, in this post you claimed that "Here comes pictoonis and says that it only right to claim territories with 3% of Lithuanian in there.

Out of the sudden you find that perfectly all right !" But of course I did not say that that is perfectly all right: you are simply lying when you claim that I find that perfectly all right. But hey, nice attempt at claiming it was all just a misspelling.

Are you supporting that claim - that only Poles passed such sentences ?

Mykolas Biržiška. As stated here: "Upon the return of the Polish armies to Vilnius, he edited various publications advocating the return of Vilnius to Lithuania Proper, continued teaching, and took an active part in the negotiations between the Lithuanians and the Poles. In February of 1922, when arrested by the Polish government for treason, he escaped death through the intercession of the League of Nations. He was deported and returned to Kaunas, the provisional capital of Lithuania."

Do feel free to name a Polish newspaper editor who was sentences to death by the Lithuanian government.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,844
10 Jan 2012 #131
You mean like sentencing newspaper editors to death? Oh, sorry, I forgot that only Poles passed such sentences.

Two minutes of the Internet search :
highbeam.com/doc/1G1-76982819.html

Are you claiming that only Poles passed such sentences or/and are you lying again ?

No, in this post you claimed that "Here comes pictoonis and says that it only right to claim territories with 3% of Lithuanian in there.

You find that perfectly all right not by saying something but by your general attitude. You nitpicking on Poles and their history and you let the most fantastic claims made by others left unchallenged in the same thread.

Significant omission I would say!!!
Harry
10 Jan 2012 #132
Are you claiming that only Poles passed such sentences or are you lying again ?

I am stating that when talking about Lithuanian/Polish minorities in Poland/Lithuanian (i.e. the topic of this discussion), only Poland passed such.

Although I do like your implied statement that it's OK for Poland to do it because Pakistan also did it. Do you really think that interbellum Poland was as low as the Pakistani military regime?!

You find that perfectly all right not by saying something but by your general attitude.

Really? Perhaps you would be kind enough to quote from posts in which my general attitude shows that I think it only right to claim territories with 3% of Lithuanian there?

Frankly, it is just going to be a lot easier for you to just admit that you were lying and then we can all move on.
piktoonis - | 86
10 Jan 2012 #133
hey you yourself claimed that before the WWI Poles were majority !

before ww2 not ww1.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,844
10 Jan 2012 #134
:(
they must have mushroomed then!and again we go ....
piktoonis - | 86
10 Jan 2012 #135
Look, we can argue about who was majority for whole eternity. I use my books, you use yours. How it was really, i doubt we will ever know for sure. Those times were dark and history was written by those who controlled the land. Fact is, Vilnius is now in Lithuania. As for "discrimination", it is only used when elections are happening. Just look how it got silent, once elections ended in Poland. Apart from Sikorski, nobody gives a damn.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,844
10 Jan 2012 #136
Well, some people give a damn, It wouldn't be wise to count on the Polish Government for ever.
There are real grievances of Poles in Lithuania, the most wise and right thing to do would be to address them and make them right.
porzeczka - | 102
10 Jan 2012 #137
The interesting thing is that Vilnius/Wilno/Вiльня was also claimed as part of an independent Belarus in 1918.
Belarusians could have argued that they were a majority/plurality in the area surrounding the city - according to the Russian census from 1897, they were 56,1% of population in Vilna Governorate.
piktoonis - | 86
10 Jan 2012 #138
Yes, some make waves. But it is mostly nationalists or politicians like Tomasevski. But stick has two ends. His allies are now abandoning him, because he does nothing but causes hatred. Every country has it's internal problems, so there is no need to intervene in to neighbors backyard. It only makes worse.

The interesting thing is that Vilnius/Wilno/Вiльня was also claimed as part of an independent Belarus in 1918.Belarusians could have argued that they were a majority/plurality in the area surrounding the city - according to the Russian census from 1897, they were 56,1% of population in Vilna Governorate.

There was a project to create a state with Belarus, but politicians had disagreements, then came soviets and all ended.

Also, did you know that when AWPL made protest in september, children were brought and used for propaganda purposes. Most of them even didn't know why they came there.
porzeczka - | 102
10 Jan 2012 #139
There was a project to create a state with Belarus, but politicians had disagreements, then came soviets and all ended.

And before 1918:

Belarusian national activists were as present in Vil'nia as their Lithuanian rivals. They too harkened back to the Grand Duchy, regarded themselves as its heirs, and claimed Vil'nia as their capital.4 Unlike Lithuanian activists, who were convinced that the 1569 union with Poland had destroyed Lithuanian independence, Belarusian activists favored a revived Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. This reflected, as we have seen, an important difference in historical interpretation. The Lithuanian critique of the Polish connection began in the 1840s, and was publicized in the 1880s; it appears that no Belarusian thinker even questioned the value of the old Commonwealth before 1910.5

Most of them even didn't know why they came there.

How do you know that?
piktoonis - | 86
10 Jan 2012 #140
Showed on the news, wrote in newspaper and net was full of comments, one of my friend's work is near by, so he shared impressions. One episode in the news: journalist comes near a couple of children who hold a poster written in polish. He asks them what are they protesting against. They answer that they were offered opportunity to visit Vilnius, but now they are here, although don't know why.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,844
10 Jan 2012 #141
Maybe they refused to answer question of the strangers.
I'm sure their parents knew what they were protesting against and thats good enough for me.
I don't understand attitudes involved. Is no good if minority is complaining about something and everyone, including government is saying that they just have a fit or all that is politically motived, everything whats involves any community is politically motived.

Proper way is to address these issues.

Every country has it's internal problems, so there is no need to intervene in to neighbors backyard. It only makes worse.

Nowadays are not 30' of the XX century. Having large minorities in your country is only natural that there will be interventions and possibly repercussion of your internal policy - don't be so touchy! Somebody could assume that you have something to hide!
Harry
10 Jan 2012 #142
Maybe they refused to answer question of the strangers.

So they were willing to express their opinions to strangers but not to answer any questions from strangers.

Would you like a few more straws to clutch onto?

So you support the right of Vietnamese people in Poland to use Vietnamese diacritics when writing their names? And to have their children educated in Vietnamese language schools? And to have the street signs in Warsaw's 'Little Vietnam' in Polish and Vietnamese?
OP Ironside 48 | 9,844
10 Jan 2012 #143
You must wonder sometime who is fallowing whom, your vast penis you or you your vast penis,I think that there is no difference between those two.
Harry
10 Jan 2012 #144
I can't quite see how that statement is linked to the rights of the a minority in Poland. Perhaps you could put it another way?

I mean, given that the vast majority of the 10,000+ Polish Vietnamese live in just two neighbourhoods in Warsaw, there would really only need to be two Vietnamese language schools in the country.
piktoonis - | 86
10 Jan 2012 #145
Nowadays are not 30' of the XX century. Having large minorities in your country is only natural that there will be interventions and possibly repercussion of your internal policy - don't be so touchy! Somebody could assume that you have something to hide!

But that is direct violation of Lithuania-Poland good neighborhood treaty. What if Germany start throwing threats and demands to Poland because "german minority is discriminated"? No doubt Poland would be furious. All that fuss about polish minority in Lithuania is because polish minority lost some privileges and local politicians decided to get cheap fame at the cost of whole minority. Same is with Poland's politicians.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,844
10 Jan 2012 #146
Perhaps you could put it another way?

Yes, the issue has been discussed many times on the PF and the difference between immigrants and the indigenous population have been amply explained.
I believe that you indulged in such an excursion because you lost our friendly exchange in off-topic!
That makes you a really vast p...er person indeed!
That and the fact that if the situation was reversed you wouldn't hesitate to scold Poland for alleged if not made up sins against minorities.
Harry
10 Jan 2012 #147
the difference between immigrants and the indigenous population have been amply explained.

We are talking about third generation here. Or do you mean Polish-Americans are immigrants who have no rights as they are just immigrants?

I believe that you indulged in such an excursion because you lost our friendly exchange in off-topic!

Lost? How can I lose when nobody other than you has a clue about what you are banging on about?!
porzeczka - | 102
10 Jan 2012 #148
Individual opinions can be chosen selectively and manipulated to prove a point of view. Media sometimes (or too often) show only one side of the coin. Some talk about Lithuanian propaganda, others about Polish one. Who should we believe?

I mean, given that the vast majority of the 10,000+ Polish Vietnamese live in just two neighbourhoods in Warsaw, there would really only need to be two Vietnamese language schools in the country.

Vietnamese are not a "national minority" according to Polish law. I'm not aware of any ban on establishing private Vietnamese schools.

According to the Act, the following minorities are recognized as national minorities: Belarusians, Czechs, Lithuanians, Germans, Armenians, Russians, Slovaks, Ukrainians and Jews, and the following as ethnic minorities: the Karaim, the Lemko, the Roma and the Tartars.

For a community to be recognized as a national or ethnic minority, its members have to hold Polish citizenship and the community itself has to meet a total of six conditions. One of the criteria is the following: 'its ancestors have been living on the present territory of the Republic of Poland for at least one hundred years.'

If the law won't change Vietnamese should posses a status of 'national minority' in this century.

mswia.gov.pl/download.php?s=2&id=755
OP Ironside 48 | 9,844
11 Jan 2012 #149
Same is with Poland's politicians.

That good neighbourhood treaty included rights of both minorities - Lithuanian in Poland and Polish in Lithuania.
German minority have all rights and Polish minority in Germany doesn't simply because they are not graded as the indigenous population.
So they have no reason to demand anything.
The same goes for Lithuania if they would grant all rights (call it privileges if you like) to Polish minority, there would be no demands.

I think that Poland have been patient enough waiting 18 years for Lithuania to come to their senses but lately the Lithuanian government started to taking back some of those rights Polish minorities already enjoyed.

Your politician talk a lot of rubbish.
You also think that everything is grand ? Well, I got a news for you it isn't ! Fame ? What are you even taking about ? You yourself admitted that the issue is real.

Stop meddling about and start behaving like a grow-up!
Because really, without sympathy of Poland you have nothing going for you and nobody cares for Lithuania - that the fact!

A cat got your tongue or what?
Another fact for you to deny.

A sixteen years old boy have been brutally beaten up by a group of men. He and his friends have been attacked because they were speaking Polish.

kurierwilenski.lt/2012/01/24/rozmawial-po-polsku-ledwo-go-nie-zabili
piktoonis - | 86
29 Jan 2012 #150
The same goes for Lithuania if they would grant all rights (call it privileges if you like) to Polish minority, there would be no demands.

They have rights, they want privileges. Simply put, they want too much. Are you so narrowminded? Elections in Poland ended, your politicians don't care about poles in Lithuania anymore

Stop meddling about and start behaving like a grow-up!

Maybe you should show me how xD

A cat got your tongue or what? Another fact for you to deny.

I am not sitting in this forum every free minute, i have better things to do.

A sixteen years old boy have been brutally beaten up by a group of men. He and his friends have been attacked because they were speaking Polish.

I live near the lake, where in summer are a lot of people. I was attacked twice by drunk teenagers, who were speaking polish. Should we now shout that lithuanians are in danger?


Home / History / Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census.
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.