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Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census.


gumishu 11 | 5,017
7 Jan 2012 #91
no it wasn't because of political reasons - many Slavic nations had very different histories but most of them kept their complicated grammatical features - you may not be familiar with this but the simple thing that Slavic does allow a lot of freedom in the word order offers a lot of nuance meanings with the use of the same words - an flectionless declensionless language like English requires in contrast quite a rigid word order to tell the subject (the doer) from the object - both approaches have their merits and their trade-off - there are things much easier expressed in English than in Polish (English has a lot of very generic terms which Polish lacks) but there are also things that are much easier expressed in Polish than in English
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
7 Jan 2012 #92
didn't see any Pole or Czech particularly fond of the good old Swedisch times of their countries occupation.

Missing the point as usual, the territories of Poland and Lithuania proper although briefly occupied by Sweden were never intended to be part of future Swedish empire unlike Latvia and Estonia. After Swedes entered Riga 1620 one of the first things they did was abolishment of serfdom. Subsequently they built a network of schools for commoners! Yep almost 400 years ago. They didn't do it out of goodness of their hearts or anything remotely altruistic rather they were driven by common (Scandinavian) sense. Sweden was a sparsely populated state that needed more citizens (more new Swedes) so to speak to maintain the new fledgling empire hence freedom for peasants and education for everyone (yep almost 400 years ago you can see the beginnings of today's Scandinavian welfare model).

Latvia and Estonia blossomed under the Swedish rule hence their gratitude lasting to this day.

n Ukraine and Belarus it happens every now and then some petition for return to Russian rule it is not unpopular idea among the masses.

Yep Russified masses (speaking Russian), over the centuries clubbed into a dank submission unaccustomed to any self-governance and freedom. Hurray zombies rejoice! Mother Russia here to smother you with her rancid bosom lactating pigsty and stability.

Do you have any idea what Russians think about Latvians and Estonians?

Oh yeah let's shed some crocodile tears for remnants of Soviet colonists, it's Latvia and Estonia now, their countries their rules, bohoo I feel so sorry for them... eeh NOT.
gumishu 11 | 5,017
7 Jan 2012 #93
that's my point though........Wheras English grammar has been much simplified since then.

btw did you know that in Papua people call a car 'bird-he-go-long-way' ;)
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
7 Jan 2012 #94
lol....I love stuff like that..;)
Cheers Gumi!
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
7 Jan 2012 #95
lol....I love stuff like that..;)

In China the steam engine locomotive train is called the "iron rooster".
southern 75 | 7,096
7 Jan 2012 #96
So the Russophiles are so because of pigginess,submission,slave status desire while swedish lovers are driven by respect for common sense?
What about German rule being very popular in germanic countries like Austria and much less popular in slavic countries?Polish rule much better tolerated among Ukrainians than among Germans?

let's shed some crocodile tears for remnants of Soviet colonists, it's Latvia and Estonia now

They even deny citizenship to Russian speaking inhabitants and treat them as third class garbage.

''Latvians suppress most of the Russian minority by labeling them as non-citizens''.

'' a large percentage of Russians in Latvia and Estonia still have non-citizen or alien status''

/wiki/Baltic_Russians
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
7 Jan 2012 #97
They even deny citizenship to Russian speaking inhabitants and treat them as third class garbage.

Sorry no sympathy nor any empathy from me, Russia next door happens to be world's biggest country, getting my drift? (though Putin obviously wants to have a ready-to-hand fifth column )

So the Russophiles are so because of pigginess,submission,slave status desire while swedish lovers are driven by respect for common sense?

I wouldn't phrase like that (I'd phrase it way better but you already know that) but yes, just compare living standard of an average Russian to an average Swede today lol.

Ahh what a great country Russia would be if she was governed with Swedish efficiency, common sense, respect for human life as well as environment, openness, tolerance and general care for the weakest of her own.. hmmm.. Imagine! And no religion too!
gumishu 11 | 5,017
7 Jan 2012 #98
lol....I love stuff like that..;)
Cheers Gumi!

you should love it :)
wikitravel.org/en/Tok_Pisin_phrasebook
southern 75 | 7,096
7 Jan 2012 #99
just compare living standard of an average Russian to an average Swede today lol.

If the Russians had done the same comparison in WW2 they would have been under Hitler's boot today.

no sympathy nor any empathy from me, Russia next door happens to be world's biggest country, getting my drift?

So what?Then Lithuania could deny citizen status to polish minority to cleanse them to Poland next door.
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
7 Jan 2012 #100
If the Russians had done the same comparison in WW2 they would have been under Hitler's boot today.

lol like they had a choice, it was either charge forward or be she shot in the back by their own commissars, (however Ukrainians welcomed Germans with bread, salt and flowers... funny that huh)

So what?Then Lithuania could deny citizen status to polish minority to cleanse them to Poland next door.

...and in Rwanda they may start killing Hutus again, your point being? 'Mother tongue in Poland - according to 1931 census' got anything on that?
OP Ironside 48 | 9,826
7 Jan 2012 #101
ery simple Harry, after 120 odd years of brutal russification they counter-reacted with polonization.

I would say that it was rather practical approach to the point. Those minorities didn't respect territorial integrity of Poland.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,721
7 Jan 2012 #102
Poland didn't exactly respect territorial integrity of other countries too, did she?

Lithuania, Czechoslovakia....
OP Ironside 48 | 9,826
7 Jan 2012 #103
Well, i don't know, maybe

thats sums you up - either you don't know or you are faking your ignorance.
It doesn't stop you from denying everything I post with the amazing cheek and firmness for somebody who - don't know.

Lithuania, Czechoslovakia....

Stop trolling, I hate malicious trolls ! IF you have a point post that , not that excuse of a post.
piktoonis - | 86
8 Jan 2012 #104
thats sums you up - either you don't know or you are faking your ignorance.It doesn't stop you from denying everything I post with the amazing cheek and firmness for somebody who - don't know.

Ah, yes, take half sentence and make it the way it suits you. If you are so all knowing then tell us, not bask in your ignorance.

IF you have a point post that , not that excuse of a post.

And your posts are very informative, right?
OP Ironside 48 | 9,826
9 Jan 2012 #105
And your posts are very informative, right?

lex.pl/serwis/du/1995/0071.htm

Article 13, 14, 15 and 20.

Minority rights in Lithuania: jamestownfoundation.blogspot.com/2011/09/poland-and-lithuania-scramble-to-mend.html

Rights of minorities in Poland: msw.gov.pl/portal/en/10/57/Fundamental_rights.html

The Polish law vests national minorities with the following fundamental rights: prohibition of any discrimination and ban on any organisations whose program of activities envisages or allows any form of racial and national hatred;
*

freedom to preserve and develop their mother tongues;
*

freedom to cherish their customs and traditions and to develop their own culture;
*

the right to learn their mother tongue and to be instructed in their mother tongue;
*

the right to unrestricted religious practice;
*

the right to establish their own educational and cultural organisations, or the ones that protect religious identity;
*

election privileges granted to election committees of minority organisations.

Minorities in Poland: msw.gov.pl/portal/en/10/56/Characteristics_of_ethnic_and_national_minorities_in_Poland.html

Lithuanians constitute another national minority in Poland. In the 2002 national census a total of 5 639 citizens of Poland proclaimed their nationality as Lithuanian. There are 5 097 members of the Lithuanian minority in Podlaskie Voivodship, 99 in Mazowieckie Voivodship, 83 Warmińsko-Mazurskie Voivodship, 75 in Pomorskie Voivodship, 67 in Zachodnio-Pomorskie Voivodship, and 53 in Dolnośląskie Voivodship. There are homogenous Lituanian communities in the municipalities of Puńsk, Szypliszki, Krasnopol and Sejny (Podlaskie Voivodship).
In the municipality of Puńsk, Lithuanians account for over 80% of the local population and, in effect, they hold the majority of seats in the local government. They are also represented in the council of the Sejny district.

They have a well-organized educational system. In 2003/2004 their mother tongue was taught at all school levels in a total of 19 schools attended by 720 Lithuanian children and teenagers. All teachers of the Lithuanian language have university degrees.

nobody deny them right to study in their own language: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_minority_in_Poland

There are Lithuanian publications (over 80 books have been published, and there are several magazines, of which the largest is "Aušra" (= "Dawn"),[1] co-sponsored by Polish Ministry of Internal Affairs). Lithuanian organizations are involved in organizing cultural life of the minority (with libraries, choirs, theatres, etc.). There are also Lithuanian-language programmes on local Radio Białystok and Telewizja Białystok.[11]

There are Lithuanian-exclusive schools in Puńsk, both on primary and secondary level, schools with Lithuanian-language as a teaching language in Sejny, and schools with Lithuanian as a foreign language in the wider region are common.[

I hope that informative enough and I ask mods for understanding and leniency this time if I overstepped the rules a little !
piktoonis - | 86
9 Jan 2012 #106
Article 13, 14, 15 and 20.

Nothing in article 13.
Article 14 has smth to say about use of surnames in minority language, but also states that this must be agreed in other treaties, which i know none of.

Hm, not sure about article 15. Maybe you could point me a problem?
Article 20. Poland clearly violates it. Lithuanian minority has severe lack of books, schools underfunded, no new educational books were approved for at least a year. Lithuania had to devote 300k lt to fund those schools, otherwise they would be closed.

:DD Then maybe you should use communist Poland history and claim that 1945 elections were the most democratic?

nobody deny them right to study in their own language

Look up, near article 20.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,826
9 Jan 2012 #107
I see you are clutching on straw as expected. No point in discussion with you.
Denial and denial and there is some more denial !

On the topic : there were at one time between 1% and 3%Lithuania in the territories claimed by Lithuania.
Give them generously 6% or assume for the sake of discussion that there were 10% of them - still their claim is ridiculous.
And here that dude, pictoonis who says nothing (what he could possibly say ), no argument, no sources but imply that those facts are not correct.
piktoonis - | 86
9 Jan 2012 #108
I see you are clutching on straw as expected. No point in discussion with you.Denial and denial and there is some more denial !

Denial? You are the one who use same sources that were agreed to biased when all that "discrimination" crap started, yet you use them again. Can you prove that lithuanians constituted only 6% and the rest were poles? From what i read, lithuanians were at least 25%, poles 30%, the rest were jews and belarussians. I won't bother writing the names of books, because you would start screaming that those are biased and writen by nationalists xD

And here that dude, pictoonis

You can't even write my nickname correctly, maybe you should go to school and learn a bit more.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,826
9 Jan 2012 #109
Mods?

What Harry ? Your case is interesting in itself. You were giving off to Poland for not giving enough rights to minorities before the war.
You implied that it is ridiculous to claim territory with only 18% of Poles in there.
Here comes pictoonis and says that it only right to claim territories with 3% of Lithuanian in there.
Out of the sudden you find that perfectly all right !
There in Lithuanian Poles are minority and their rights as understood by the European standards today are infringed.
Yet you ridicule that claim as well.
The only conclusion is that you are anti-Polish, Harry old chap, no other way to see it.
mods feel free to moderate my previous post if you think is not logical conclusion to pictoonis ramblings and not an insult.

From what i read, lithuanians were at least 25%, poles 30%,

well if they were written by Lithuanian then their attitude and tendency for fantasy and imagination deem only naturally to treat them with suspicion.
I think that that your number is rubbish but even according to your books Poles were majority on said territories - what gives ?

Find sources not Polish and not Lithuanian.

You can't even write my nickname correctly, maybe you should go to school and learn a bit more.

I don't care about your stupid moniker.
Harry
9 Jan 2012 #110
What Harry ?

I was objecting to your insults.

I refer to to the Rules here:

2. Posters should refrain from using abusive or derogatory language (unless it's necessary to explain the language's nuances). Posters who use abusive or derogatory language towards other users may be banned.
...
8. If, from the moderators perspective, the intention of the poster is to ridicule another poster, the offensive post may be removed without warning.

Here comes pictoonis and says that it only right to claim territories with 3% of Lithuanian in there.
Out of the sudden you find that perfectly all right !

Really? Do I? Could you perhaps quote from even a single post where I say that? Either that or just admit that your claim is precisely the same as your claim about Welsh being banned in the UK in the 1920s and 1930, i.e. a lie.

There in Lithuanian Poles are minority and their rights as understood by the European standards today are infringed.

So why is the EU doing nothing about it? If it is really happening.
piktoonis - | 86
9 Jan 2012 #111
I already asked him at least twice. His answer was: i know, you must find out. In short: nothing is violated, so no need for EU to interfere. ironside knows only one truth: the one that suits him and his fantasies.

Ironside, look at this: zum.de/whkmla/region/russia/xgovvilna.html, looks like third party source. Although i am sure you will start crying that it is biased :D
OP Ironside 48 | 9,826
9 Jan 2012 #112
So why is the EU doing nothing about it? If it is really happening.

you know how it goes in the EU, you need to have a leverage to have something done, secondly the issue is being investigated,

Really? Do I? Could you perhaps quote from even a single post where I say that?

You are saying nothing and that says a lot.

If it is really happening.

Sure, Poles are lying everybody else is telling the truth - way to go Harry.
piktoonis - | 86
9 Jan 2012 #113
Not every pole is lying, only you. Did you look in to my linked material?
Harry
9 Jan 2012 #114
you know how it goes in the EU, you need to have a leverage to have something done, secondly the issue is being investigated,

So you claim that little Lithuania has more weight in the EU than Poland does?! Why is the issue being 'investigated'? If it was as clear cut as you make out, the EU would be taking action, not just having a look. Oh, and you do have links to some sources which confirm that these investigations are happening, don't you?

You are saying nothing and that says a lot.

So you mean that you cannot quote from even a single post in which I say any such thing. And why can you not do that? Because you are very simply lying, yet again.

Poles are lying everybody else is telling the truth - way to go Harry.

Well, you constantly lying doesn't exactly help, does it?
OP Ironside 48 | 9,826
9 Jan 2012 #115
So you mean that you cannot quote from even a single post in which I say any such thing. And why can you not do that? Because you are very simply lying, yet again.

It means exactly what it means - that you say nothing, given your constant go at Poles it speaks volumes !

And thirdly :
Protocol No. 12 to the European Convention on Human Rights, containing a general prohibition of discrimination, and the acceptance of the collective complaints procedure under the European Social Charter.

Poland did ratified that Protocol l and Lithuania didn't - are you maintaining you anti-Polish attitude faced with that?

In my understanding they have all necessary lows in place but implementing them differ.
gencat.net/llengcat/noves/.../kallonen.pdf

Well, you constantly lying doesn't exactly help, does it?

constantly would you like to repeat that statement in the court of law?
The fact is that I very rarely lie,and on here just to keep you going, you on the other hand have no qualms about lying just to make yourself good on here or make some poster look bad !
Harry
9 Jan 2012 #116
constantly would you like to repeat that statement in the court of law?

I suppose you are right. Sorry about that, you do not lie constantly.

However, you do seem to get caught lying on almost a daily basis, wouldn't you say? Today it is you claiming that I said something which I very clearly have never said, before that it was you claiming that Welsh was banned in the UK in the 1920s and 1930s.

Where does that support your case?

But thanks for that source anyway: it gives a rather nice assessment about Poland and minority rights:

In its 2003 opinion on Poland, the Council of Europe's advisory committee on the Framework Convention argued that the Polish attempts to protect minorities lacked 'overall coherance' and 'contained important shortcomings'.
"This is particularly the case for the use of minority languages in relations with administrative authorities, as well as the display of traditional local names and other topographical indications in minority languages."

porzeczka - | 102
9 Jan 2012 #117
No census is 100% reliable. However, these are the possible alternatives (regarding Polish-Lithuanian conflict over Vilnius/Wilno):

1. Russian census of 1897:
Vilnius/Wilno - Jews (40%), Poles (30,1%), Russians (20,9%), Belarusians (4,3%), Lithuanians (2,1%), Germans (1,4%), Tatars (0.5%), Ukrainians (0,3%), Other (0,4%)
Vilna Governorate (most of its territory seems to be in Belarus now; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lithuania-1867-1914-EN.svg) - Belarusians (56,1%), Lithuanians (17,6%), Jews (12,5%), Poles (8,2%), Russians (4,9%), Germans (0,2%), Tatars (0,1%), Ukrainians (0,1%), Other (0,1%).

2. German census of 1916:
Vilnius/Wilno - Poles (50,2%), Jews (43,5%), Lithuanians (2,6%), Russians (1,5%), Other (2,2%)
Occupied Lithuania - Poles (58%), Lithuanians (18,5%), Jews (14,7%), Belarusians (6,4%), Russians (1,2%), Other (1,2%).

3. Polish census of 1921:
Administrative district Area of Wilno - Poles (57,9%), Belarusians (25,7%), Jews (8,1%), Other (8,3%).

4. German-Lithuanian census of 1942:
Vilnius/Wilno - Poles (41,89%), Jews (27,78%), Lithuanians (24,37%), Russians (1,95%), Belarusians (2,55%), Germans (0,25%), Other (1,21%)
Wilna-Gebiet - Lithuanians (43,44%), Poles (42,20%), Belarusians (10,89%), Russians (3,05%), Other (0,42%).

5. Soviet census of 1959:
Vilnius/Wilno - Lithuanians (33,6%), Russians (29,4%), Poles (20%), Jews (7%), Belarusians (6,2%), Ukrainians (2,8%), Other (1%).

Ethnic history of Vilnius region.
/wiki/Ethnic_history_of_the_Vilnius_region
OP Ironside 48 | 9,826
10 Jan 2012 #118
Not every pole is lying, only you. Did you look in to my linked material?

Not yet.
You are lying boozy!

Today it is you claiming that I said something which I very clearly have never said,

Come on Harry focus !Today(yesterday) I claimed that you have not said something which you very clearly should have said.

that Welsh was banned in the UK in the 1920s and 1930s.

In the UK schools, are you saying that wasn't banned?Maybe was prohibited unofficially ?

it gives a rather nice assessment about Poland and minority rights:

That assessment is from 2003. Right now Lithuanian minority got all the rights, especially in eduction area paid for by Polish taxpayers.
What about rights of minorities in Lithuania ?

Did you look in to my linked material?

Yes I did.
Most of that land is a part of Belarus now. Very interesting that Vilnia is one of few provinces were percentage were given, in Kovno that do not bother with numbers or percentages - I wonder what kind of source is that, what was it originally - estimation made by St.Petersburg most notorious pish taker?

Good for you at least you got something going for you not just empty claims. The question is what that source is worth.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
10 Jan 2012 #119
The question is what that source is worth.

what about your source. You are not even able to interpret it correctly and the census did not include all people form the given area, but a part of population. There is even a note in wiki, that the numbers have been tempered with, so you have no point, well maybe just an excuse to call people names. You are a nutcase indeed.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,826
10 Jan 2012 #120
Even if the census was alerted in favour of Poles (which I doubt as there is no evidence to support that claim)it couldn't have been alerted too much.

Lets go to the extreme and assume for the sake of the discussion that it was 10%. Still it gives 50% of Poles in the Wilno area.

I personally think that census do not differ from reality more than 1-5% and gives quite accurately impression of minorities in Poland before the war.


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