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Israeli wants to wipe Poland off the map!



DariuszTelka 5 | 194    
20 Mar 2010  #1

A israeli historian, Martin van Creveld, author of several books on military strategy and war, with degrees from the London School of Economics and the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and who is a frequent guest at the US naval war college, recently stated that Poland might be the target for israeli nuclear weapons attack.

In a September 2003 interview in Elsevier (Dutch weekly) on Israel and the dangers it faces from Iran, the Palestinians and world opinion van Creveld stated:

"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force.... We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under".

politicaltheatrics.net/2010/03/israeli-historian-israel-could-find-itself-forced-to-wipe-out-europe/

As we know, Israelis from a young age are being taught that the polish state is anti-semitic, and that polish people are responsible for what happened to jews during the war in Poland. There are many documentaries and news articles on this. Just watch one of them called "Defamation";

wideeyecinema.com/?p=7208

In it you will see how Israel educates thousands of young israelis about Poland and her people, and how all poles are anti-semites, and that they can't even go out of their hotel room because they will be instantly attacked by angry anti-semitic mobs. If any country would do this officially about Israel, the cries about anti-semitism would never stop. These young students will then go on with their lives, become doctors, lawyers, have careers in the army and even go abroad on official duties through the state of Israel. How will this indoctrination affect their feelings and behaviour to european states, in particular Poland?

This history professor is one of many who does not see it impossible that Israel one day must use nuclear bombs on Europe, and if the hate is mostly pointed at Poland from such an young age, the people who control the destinations of these bombs are most likely to target Poland first as revenge for allowing the jews to die in the concentration camps on polish soil, and even participating in the slaughter of 6 million jews. (Official claim by many anti-polish posters in here and in general).

Is this not as bad, if even worse, since it comes from a acclaimed history professor who dines with the worlds elite, than of a half-insane iranian head of state, that claimed that the current israeli regime must perish in order for the world to go on? (The jews interpreted this statement that he wishes "Israel the state to be wiped off the map). I don't think making my connection about Poland being wiped off the map by Israel as any more ludicrous.

Read here about the iranian presidents statement and compare it to Martin van Creveld's statement about using nuclear arms on European capitals;

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#

Dariusz

skysoulmate 14 | 1,289    
20 Mar 2010  #2

True, but first they'll steal all Polish babies and will drink their blod! ...and they will also use our churches for public toilets, rename Vistula to Jewriver and force all Poles to speak Hebrew at home. That's a fact! ;)

I though we already had a "why are Jews hated so much..." thread?
OP DariuszTelka 5 | 194    
20 Mar 2010  #3

True, but first they'll steal all Polish babies and will drink their blod! ...and they will also use our churches for public toilets, rename Vistula to Jewriver and force all Poles to speak Hebrew at home. That's a fact! ;)

These are all folk-tales from the past long gone. Martin van Creveld actually said that Israel would use nuclear force on Europe, on Warszawa in particular. How is it anti-semtic of me to share this information? Is it the way I said it? Should I not have used links to actual news-sites for confirmation. Does it hurt you that I'm not a bigot that just "hates" jews because they are jews, but treat them as anyone else? And expose them if they go over the line, as Martin van Creveld so thoroughly did? Why would you invoke old misconseptions about drinking baby blood into a real-time political event? Is this how you argue? Or is it a way of trying to silence critics of the state of Israel or israelis who say horrible things like what Martin van Creveld did, with fairy tales and with the classic "anti-semite" hat, that everyone who even dares to address political issues where Israel or israelis are involved get on their head?

I though we already had a "why are Jews hated so much..." thread?

What is hateful about this thread? Are facts hateful? He said Israel would wipe Warszawa off the map!

Dariusz
Czarnkow1940 5 | 95    
20 Mar 2010  #4

He said Israel would wipe Warszawa off the map!

Highly unlikely Iran would likely blow up israel and then we wouldnt have to worry
Seanus 15 | 19,744    
20 Mar 2010  #5

Dariusz, even I don't buy into such wild accusations. He is some crackpot academic who is trying to make a name for himself. Let him have his day in the sun and be forgotten just as quickly. Europe has 2 major nuclear powers so I suggest he retracts his statements, pronto.

On a touristic level, there is much goodwill between Jews and Poles. Don't believe all the hype!
skysoulmate 14 | 1,289    
20 Mar 2010  #6

What is hateful about this thread? Are facts hateful? He said Israel would wipe Warszawa off the map!

Dariusz - there is a thread posted here somewhere by a fellow American on why so many people here are anti-American? I sort of see her point but in reality the vast majority of conspiracy theories here go: "it's all the Jews' fault! No? Then surely it must have been the Americans? No? Germans? Brits? No? What? Polish? I see so it was the Jews' fault."

The link you provided I know nothing about, heck maybe it's all legit. He basicaly said that before Israel goes many European nations will go first. Not much different from the cold war between the US and Soviet is it? Don't do anything stupid or else!

There's no secret Europe is vastly anti-Israeli while the US is vastly pro-Israeli. So Israelis "threaten" the Europeans. Is it true? I don't know.

My initial reply wasn't really about your post per se but rather about the incredible amount of blame put on them for all evils of the world here on PF and everywhere else...
OP DariuszTelka 5 | 194    
20 Mar 2010  #7

He is some crackpot academic

We can read this on his website;

"Martin van Creveld, formerly of the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, is one of the world's leading writers on military history and strategy, with a special interest in the future of war.

From Wikipedia;

"Van Creveld has lectured or taught at virtually every strategic institute, military or civilian, in the Western world"

Including the Naval War College which defines itself like this;

"The Naval War College (NWC or NAVWARCOL) is an education and research institution of the United States Navy that specializes in developing ideas for naval warfare and passing them along to officers of the Navy."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_van_Creveld

He has written in the International Herald Tribune, Elsevier (Dutch weekly), U.S. Naval War College Review, been interviewed by many TV-stations and had dozens of articles published in various well known publications.

On his own website it says;

"Martin van Creveld has consulted to the defense establishments of several countries, and taught or lectured at practically every institute of higher defense learning, military and civilian, from Canada to New Zealand and from Norway to South Africa. He has also appeared on countless television and radio programs, as well as writing for, and being interviewed by, hundreds of papers and magazines around the world."

and you can check his book list here, many of his books are translated into several languages and printed by renowned publishers.

martinvancreveld.com/publicationlist/

Hardly a "crackpot academic"....if he says so...then he's not alone with this view.

Dariusz
Seanus 15 | 19,744    
20 Mar 2010  #8

Dariusz, anyone can say anything. If those words came from the mouth of Netanyahu, then we would have cause for concern. That guy doesn't even have the status of a Brzezinski. Creveld, LOL
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
20 Mar 2010  #9

Israelis dont have the rockets with range so they can run their mouth as much as they want.

Hardly a "crackpot academic"....if he says so...then he's not alone with this view.

Neither is Ksiądz Rydzyk but he's also a crackpot, every nation has their share of retards.
MareGaea 29 | 2,770    
20 Mar 2010  #10

Yeah, and I am sure there will be a Pole who wants to wipe Israël off the map.

>^..^<

M-G (margins - margins)
1jola 14 | 1,884    
20 Mar 2010  #11

That guy doesn't even have the status of a Brzezinski. Creveld, LOL

Well, I don't think he is a nobody. His Transformation of War:

The book's significance is attested to by the fact that until the middle of 2008, it was included on the list of required reading for United States Army officers, and (with Sun-Tzu and Von Clausewitz) the third non-American entry on the list.

I don't have to remind you of the fame of the other two strategists.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,289    
20 Mar 2010  #12

Israelis dont have the rockets with range so they can run their mouth as much as they want.

They don't need rockets. Their airforce is very capable and they're no longer dependent on us, the US for air refueling either... IF Israelis wanted the vast majority of the Middle east would be a large crater by now. Some estimates put their arsenal at twice, possibly three times the size of the French arsenal. The French are decreasing their arsenal - doubt the Israelis will. I predict 12 maximum 24 months before Israelis strike Iran, they've been purchasing latest versions of bunker buster bombs from us for several years now. They've also vastly improved some of those bombs.

I'm not saying I'm for it or against it - just my "tea leaves" prediction... Based on the many statements by Ahmadinejad and several people near him - as soon as Israelis get a chance they'll strike.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
20 Mar 2010  #13

Their airforce is very capable

Of flying to the other hemisphere? No its not even with refueling.

IF Israelis wanted the vast majority of the Middle east would be a large crater by now.

Including Israel, nuking Syria means Jerusalem dies of radiation poisoning within 24hrs.

I predict 12 maximum 24 months before Israelis strike Iran

That would be a bloody stupid move against a country with bio-weapons.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,289    
20 Mar 2010  #14

The truth is Israel has no real friends to count on. With Obama they also lost the US - if they think Iran has enough enriched uranium for a bomb - they'll attack.

Their real enemy today is Iran. Arab states do lots of saber rattling but many are actually quirky supporting Israel here. When Israel hit the Syrian underground bunkers where UN inspectors found radiation there wasn't much said by other Arab leaders was it? Just standard, semi-polite statements about respecting other countries territories - that's all.

IF (I think it's "when" but who knows) Israel attacks it will be with sone tacit support from several Arab nations. You'll never read about it but Arab leaders fear nuclear Iran more than a nuclear Israel.
Seanus 15 | 19,744    
20 Mar 2010  #15

1Jola, take the time to read what you have just written, please. I'll give you a hint, it has sth to do with Sun-Tzu. You can still edit.

Iranian missiles can't reach Poland. I think some Israeli ones can but Poland can buy Patriot intercepts for quite cheap, neatly neutralising the minor threat. Just think about it logically, Israel has had years in which to strike Poland and it hasn't which leads me to my conclusion, they are bored and lame academics who write such trash.

Sky, don't be so sure. America is making noises and gestures, e.g George Mitchell not meeting his counterpart on Tuesday. However, America is right behind Israel and won't even ask them to enforce a court judgement which expressly forbades the development of settlements. Clinton is a two-faced bi*ch who is right behind Israel, despite pledging support for the plight of the Palestinians. A classic American politician, playing both sides when the wind blows the right way.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
20 Mar 2010  #16

I think some Israeli ones can but Poland

They cant, their most advanced missiles are if memory serves 3000 miles in range i'm absolutely ignorant as far as geography but i'm pretty sure they're farther then 3000 miles not to mention nuking Poland would cause them to get invaded by pretty much everyone by simple principle of anything flying to Poland violating a whole lot of airspaces and waking up everyone in their path to the possibility of getting a nuke up the arse themselves.
1jola 14 | 1,884    
20 Mar 2010  #17

1Jola, take the time to read what you have just written, please. I'll give you a hint, it has sth to do with Sun-Tzu. You can still edit.

Help me then since my post should tell you he is not just some academic. Was Sun-Tzu or Clausewitz also some army guys?

So, nobody has a comment on his statement? This one:

We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.'

OP DariuszTelka 5 | 194    
20 Mar 2010  #18

Dariusz, anyone can say anything. If those words came from the mouth of Netanyahu, then we would have cause for concern. That guy doesn't even have the status of a Brzezinski. Creveld, LOL

I know he doesn't have ACTUAL power, like Brzezinski or Netanyahu, but he is a professor, with a rather lengthy academic history. He lectures for officers. He get's his articles published in mainstream media. But ofcourse, he is only one guy. But if he says it, then many think it. And the fact that he said this is quite interesting, because jewish academics tend to be on the same side, with a couple of few exceptional cases like Norman Finkelstein and Israel Shakak.

Let's go through some other quotes from famous israeli's, just sample how they think;

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial." Ariel Sharon

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." Ariel Sharon

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." Rabbi Yaacov Perrin

About the 9/11 attacks; "It's good... it's very, very good... er... well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy for our cause." Benjamin Netanyahu

"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Meir

When prominent jews talk, one should listen, for it gives away a worldview, a human perspective and a state of mind, that shows how they think and how they feel. This will in the end show itself in world politics. So when a jewish professor says that Israel will send nuclear rockets to Warszawa, I listen.

Dariusz
skysoulmate 14 | 1,289    
20 Mar 2010  #19

Sky, don't be so sure.

All true and you have valid points here. I do have some inside "feel" for things on this side of the fence as I'm still part time air guard. I'll repeat - Israelis can reach any target in Europe if they want without our help. Remember, they had nuclear weapons years and years before even their allies realized it. They're the most sophisticated, knowledgable and disciplined SOBs I've ever had to deal with. I'd never want to fight against them.

For example our predators are a copy-cat and a much less advanced version of the original Israeli uavs -they "invented" that genre. ...and that's just an example. Like I said, they're extremely innovative and have turned things upside down in some military technology and the applications.

Anyways, I'm out of this thread. I simply hope my prediction turns out to be incorrect.
Seanus 15 | 19,744    
20 Mar 2010  #20

Sokrates, they may go to the south-eastern part of Poland but it just depends if the schematics/specifications are right. Some can reach I think.

1Jola, I'll spell it out. Look at the lack of American success in wars they have fought. Almost every strategy in Afghanistan has been inefficacious. I bought The Art of War back in Jul 2008 when I was home and read it then. I can safely tell you that many lessons were NOT learned correctly from that book. It's just a status symbol, sth to make them look smart but their strategies did his book a total disservice. Asians know what I am talking about.

1Jola, I have learned more in 3 chapters of 'Modlitwa o deszcz' than many NATO troops seem to have in 9.5 years. An American troop candidly admits that the Taliban are winning due to knowing the best positions. Are you a Polish American that knows Polish well? If so, I recommend the book. It is written by Wojciech Jagielski and it is 20cms from my left hand at the moment.

Dariusz, I'm very aware of their statements. Ask yehudi, I posted him such stuff. Tusk and his merry men are Jewish sympathisers anyway. There's no chance in hell that Israel would attack given the leanings of PO.

Sky, you are right. I'm not gonna tag the IDF as modern-day Nazis, that would be wrong, but some parallels can be drawn and I've watched enough to know so.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
20 Mar 2010  #21

Sokrates, they may go to the south-eastern part of Poland but it just depends if the schematics/specifications are right. Some can reach I think.

I just double checked it appears Jericho III has a range of 11.500km which means it can nuke any spot in Poland, in this light the topic takes on a whole different light, still they dont have enough nukes to squander them on countries totally irrelevant strategically.

Remember, they had nuclear weapons years and years before even their allies realized it.

Actually no, everyone knew they had them, everyone knew they were developing them, you cant hide stuff like that.

Most European capitals are targets for our air force….

But thats technically impossible, south-east Poland mayyyyyybe but Germany, France, UK or Moscow no can do.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,289    
20 Mar 2010  #22

Meant to include this in my edit. My iPhone typing isn't fast enough for the 15 min rule. ;)

Dariusz - before I go - for every Israeli fanatic you've just quoted there are at least 100 or more Arab fanatics with even more venomous speeches. Maybe if you quoted both sides this thread would feel more unbiased?

Sky, you are right. I'm not gonna tag the IDF as modern-day Nazis, that would be wrong, but some parallels can be drawn and I've watched enough to know so.

I firmly believe that had the Palestinians (or Palestinian Arabs as initially Palestine was a term used by the British for both Arab and Jewish nationalities) adopted Gandhi's principles of civil disobedience and non-violence instead of hijacking airplanes, kidnapping reporters, executing some of them, torturing others, blowing up innocent civilians, etc., etc., etc. they would have had a free, prosperous but most of all well respected country by now.
Seanus 15 | 19,744    
20 Mar 2010  #23

Old wounds sometimes remain, Sok, but I believe that Israel doesn't/don't harbour such ambitions. What may be alarming is Netanyahu's leanings towards the radical factions in his ranks. Those right-wing hawks are potentially dangerous and I'm glad that the US is showing signs of imposing some standards on them. I don't think they'll be so effective as everyone saw how Obama pandered to the AIPAC crew.

Sky, I don't agree. That would have yielded more gains but nothing as grandiose as you propose. Yehudi will tell you why a 2-state solution just cannot be. The Palestinians didn't orchestrate terror campaigns along the lines of what you said. They tended to rely on rockets which killed virtually no-one. I don't believe those that say, 'oh, if you didn't fire rockets then we'd give you X, Y and Z'. Hatred is a deep-seated reality there and stopping rocket fire has done nothing for the Palestinian cause. Israel is firing on Rafah as we speak and has been doing so for 60 hours now.
enkidu 7 | 625    
20 Mar 2010  #24

they would have had a free, prosperous but most of all well respected country by now.

Or be dead altogether by now. You can't exclude this possibility.
India - is a quite different story.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
20 Mar 2010  #25

Old wounds sometimes remain, Sok, but I believe that Israel doesn't/don't harbour such ambitions.

As pointed out Israel has no real friends, US is controlled but this too has its limits, any nuclear exchange with global effects might bring Holocaust no.2 around and this time without safe havens to which they can flee.

Israel is in a funny situation, it has nukes but not enough to nuke say Europe and if it nukes its enemies enough to bring them down as countries or even militaries it instantly condemns 100% of Israeli population to death through radiation poisioning.
Seanus 15 | 19,744    
20 Mar 2010  #26

It's all blowing air, Sok. Israel are more focussed on resettling areas of occupied territories. Drumming up anti-Polish sentiments is very much a minority game.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
20 Mar 2010  #27

It's all blowing air, Sok. Israel are more focussed on resettling areas of occupied territories.

I realise that i also realise that they will not resettle much longer given how their population is decreasing and money is thin given the situation of US, from the Polish point of view there's no Jewish problem.
1jola 14 | 1,884    
20 Mar 2010  #28

1Jola, I have learned more in 3 chapters of 'Modlitwa o deszcz' than many NATO troops seem to have in 9.5 years.

I looked up this book and it seems like a great insight to western failure to ever subjugate Afghanistan. We know it is impossible, but it would be interesting to get another glimpse as to why.

The point was Creveld is influencial.

The question remains. Assuming Israel rules out the Masada scenario and prefers the Samson Option, what is Creveld's message? That Europe must protect Israel, or the mad dog will destroy it also in addition to its enemies?
Seanus 15 | 19,744    
20 Mar 2010  #29

That's a good summary of the position, Sok. Iran is a much more likely target but they are spinning out the rhetoric as much as possible, just to keep politicians in a job.
Sokrates 8 | 3,352    
20 Mar 2010  #30

The question remains. Assuming Israel rules out the Masada scenario and prefers the Samson Option, what is Creveld's message? That Europe must protect Israel, or the mad dog will destroy it also in addition to its enemies?

More or less, of course its also a hollow threat since Europe is largely indifferent or anti-semitic, France wont help since it doesnt like them, Germany and UK wont help since they have no business there and any politician in Poland who'd openly support a major Israeli war effort would be eaten by the general populace, even Agora and Gazeta Wyborcza, major jewish media efforts in Poland thread carefully.

Its not even that Poles are anti-semitic, they just ask too many questions and react violently to any incursions.




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