Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938

you are joking, Germans never tortured anybody, that is news to me lol


Then you know nothing about German camps, which is hard to believe.
So now you are using lies in order to prove your point - how pathetic.

You are running out of options. Still, you have not proved to me that Polish government did NOT respect the Ukrainian minorities, since this is what is thread is ABOUT> lol

I rest my case.

I am done with this topic, since it exhausted itself.

No, indeed, you shouldn't. You think it's so much more fun to have your belly slit open without sedation and then they keep you alive, just to see how quickly the wound will fester? And that they will only keep you alive to see how much pain you can endure before you finally kick the bucket? And that, should you survive, they will kill you anyway? I would say practices like that are more than comparable to sawing a kid in two while it's still alive. The majority was gassed immediately, yes, but don't forget the hundreds of thousands that were used for "medical" experiments, the vast majority of them being children and twin-children.

But this is is not a dcik-measuring contest, this is just to say that I'm kinda used to see gruesome black and whit pics of mutilated ppl. Luckily they're not in colour for it would've been more direct, even more gruesome.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Never before seen Sokrates making excuses for his Nazi heroes?

Not the way ukrainians did, for example Germans didnt cut their victims to pieces while they were alive with saws, ukrainians did:

I mean how much more savage can you get? It doenst get more macabre that this, do you call that fighting for freedom ukrainian?


Except that only very few Jews were subject to torture experiments, more then 2/3rds of Poles killed by ukrainians were killed via torture and indeed it was some of the most savage torture in history, far surpassing what Germans did in savagery if not in scope.


True that but tbh i'm not used to them, the "disney comic" you quote is based on pictures and thats a bit much for me.

absolute ?no! I don't care to prove that point, nevertheless it was insulting (I mean treaty )
and infringement into independent state affairs.


absolutely not - you are not credible - you can cry about rights, justice, racism and humanism and all that but when it comes to Jews you are 100% side-taker - I don't think you should be giving moral or other advice to others!


You don't need to prove that to me, I wouldn't expect it! The readers on the other hand could have some doubts about your standing and credibility.

What does summum means ?
incredibility - really ? Why because I do not view the world your way?Now, that mighty intolerant !


OUN


String by which "old powers" could control or attempt to control "new" states - like Greece, Poland and others !


area - are you not familiar with this word?


correct !


political necessity - you as an Ukrainian know nothing about !
In 1918 you choose all and got nothing - but you have easer, you blame Poles !


doesn't matter it is side issue !


yeah ! American - Jews !


OH ? I'm sure if it was about Jews being victims, you wouldn't need any prove, would
you?!


Sometimes you should pause and think before you start flapping the big mug of yours,!

I said the drawings were Disney-like in that sense that they are the typical propaganda drawings of the day with kiddos with angel-like faces, big blue eyes and so on, hanging on a door. It's sth different than pictures.


The exact number is not known, but it is estimated at a few hundreds of thousands. So, I wouldn't say it were very few.


If I am not impartial towards Jews, what does that make you towards Poles? Ah, completely neutral, impartial and honest? HAHAHAHAHA.


Most normal readers know that I am a credible person. The smart ones do.

Summum = latin and means the same as Summit, the utmost, the ultimate and so on.
(always glad to educate)

Yeah and that number is rubbish because even the most famous people like Mengele only managed to work through so many people and like Iron said you're a side taker in this issue, fair enough so am i but it doesnt change the fact of what ukrainians did, why they did it and the "why" does not justify the "what".

They acted in a way not even Nazis did, their actions were born out of sheer cowardice, jealousy and a resentment of a nation thats always been more succesfull then them.

he is loosing an argument, what else is new?

Mengele wasn't the only one who performed those experiments. He was the most notorious, yes, but not the only one.


He mentioned that in regard to the Jews. And besides, who takes Iron seriously? :)

Sure, there were some short lived attempts of polonization, and I think it shouldn't have happened, however it doesn't change the crux of the matter - it was and should be Polish territory, everyone is welcome as long as they respect it !

Ukrainians didn't wanted compromise but all and more, so they got nothing.
They trusted arms to gain their goal - and their lost!
While Poland were under Nazi and Soviet occupation - they saw their chance and lost for ever chance to claim that justice is on their side !

All attempts on justification of Volyn is only the way of digging your own moral grave!
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------


Well, honest when it comes to the facts, also impartial but when it comes to interpretation I'm presenting Polish view - I do not pretend like you to be absolutely impartial and neutral !


Above could only flatter insecure ones and not that smart !


thank you !
From my throne of Summum Incredibility I salute you King of Double Standards with one finger salute :D

It was german policy in Lvov and Volynia region which had separate Gauleiter from Ukraine.(much more successfull).The Germans decided to help both Ukrainians and Poles to exterminate each other giving deliberately more help to ukrainian side.

Their basic concern was the red army and its guerillas and both UPA and AK could help them discover and exterminate the guerillas or they could do it themselves.On the other hand the red army wanted both UPA and AK reduced in power by the time it entered Galicia and was involved in heavy battles against Germans,UPA etc.

The Polish view might need some adjusting here and there. But you're not, I can tell you that.


Thankfully I am neither.


Oh I am neutral. Neutral means you point out all sides good and bad of both sides. And I have pointed out quite a few times the wrong of Israeli politics. Neutral doesn't mean strict obedience to the Polish version of history, which you seem to adapt. But anyway, it's getting a bit boring - there is simply no decent discussing with you, so I will just stop doing so.

M-G (iron is boring)

I'm not - what? I'm not presenting Polish view? Says who Dutch ? speaking double Dutch again are you?


don't flatter yourself !


Well, I have no chance to point out bad sides on PF everyone (at last the strong bunch ) are jumping in quest to do it first!


Really? I didn't notice!Anyway is not only about Israel, for you Jews can never done or be wrong !


Its not about version is about interpretation - and unfortunately about facts!
I cannot bend when you get facts wrong !


OH? Well, maybe you are not able to discus - but is not fault of mine !!!
Is not that I say - no, no, no .....all the time as you would like to believe, anyway discussion is exchange of views not M-G talks and not the rest nods and admire !


don't be afraid !

Yes, Harry, those pesky Poles with strong opinions and patriotic fiber are sooo annoying. It's so much better when they are all of mohair berets' mentality cos it's easier to make fun of them.

*another addition to "Harry's finest thoughts and observations" collection*


Show some humility, at least occasionally, and let other posters decide about that.


You have no clue what that is, even if it hit you in the head.


Keep dreaming, girl.

OK mom;)

As for MG- i like his posts because he is rational and does not have to resort to abuse to put his point across, which cannot be said about other posters including you.

Yet, I still have to see your contribution to this thread which are devoid of sneer and contemptuous remarks. You have not presented any arguments besides agreeing with Soki, nor have you attempted to refute my claim.

Sokrates is a tongue-flapping prodigy; he is working on Masters in Oral Arts at night somewhere on Bzdiszczyn's red lights street. Lots of promises from this young talent.


;) Fantasy land of yours...nothing changes. Are you also into drawing? Amazing.


Where did you suck these numbers, Socki? Some source?


Pigs like you have easy right now jabbering online about what Jews went through. 10 minutes? I knew you are dumb, but not to that point. And all the atrocities and 350 ways of killing fantasy of yours is pure BS as everything you say. You imagine numbers - 250,000???? ;) maybe, a million? no? , tortures perpetrated by NKWD or Soviet armies made to look like UPA by communist regime which reigned for 50 years after and which is known with its falsification of facts, or even pictures of Ukrainian families, presented as Polish, murdered by who knows whom in what was going in Ukraine at that time. Where is your proof of who did murder these people? None.


Ukraine was attacked by Soviets, Nazis, Poles who had no intent of letting people live on their lands. Ukrainian regular insurgents which made 40,000 self-trained soldiers and lots of people who supported them had barely what to fight with. Food was in shortage, guns where stolen from killing occupying forces and there was no time for wasting salt on somebody's wounds, cutting breasts, making 350 Polish imagined tortures if you wanted to see your country free. During Second Polish republic in prisons where Poles had enough time to waste, these practices were extensively used on any representative of national minority, be it a Jew, a Bielorusin, a Ukrainian or a Lithuanian.


With Poles we made so many compromises in history that this is simply ridiculous. But in every one of them, you betrayed the agreement. And if you don't believe me, just ask Czechs or Lithuanians, they had the same experience with you. This is why you are angels and every one else are bad and injust to these pure-white polish goląbki.


Ironing too ;)

Any take on this one, aphro?

Yet, I still have to see your contribution to this thread which are devoid of sneer and contemptuous remarks. You have not presented any arguments besides agreeing with Soki, nor have you attempted to refute my claim.

Nor have you done any of the footwork- so.........check some sources, do some reading and get curious instead of bashing anybody who is posting here.

I want to see you prove something for a change, preferable with quoting some sources.

At least Soki tried to defend the good name of Poles by providing many links, you, on the other hand just sneer.

No, you don't. I won't participate in obvious pro-Ukrainian propaganda piece made for google-searching purposes which you clearly admitted in Polish speaking part of this forum. Your goody-two-shoes persona you are creating here may fool some but not me. Nice try, though :)

So I take it that you are not going to take a bite on that Nathan's "blame-Russians-not-us" point. You have some brains left.

Who ? what ? and where ?


this is old!Are you jealous? Don't worry Poles will do some ethic cleansing and we'll be even and bad ! what says you?


You were talking about informative thread and latter about blame, excuses and all !
Make up your mind!

That's very bad, biased/skewed translation (of the whole document), and you know it if you read the thread on Axis history forum (the one you took it from). So why are you posting it (again)?????????

Some fragments mean exactly the opposite of the original.





Roman Catholic Church in Warsaw (Kościół Pijarów) converted into Orthodox Church.



Roman Catholic church (St Joseph Chuch) being demolishedby the order of tsarist authorities in Vilnius, 1877.


Depends how you look at it.


Source: Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005.

note: the Orthodox believers in PLC must have been mostly Belarusians
Catholicism was seen by tsarist authorities as Polish faith. That is why they tried so hard to 'depolonize' Ukrainians, among others. They did it by destruction/changing Catholic churches into Orthodox ones, building Orthodox churches everywhere and by forcing mass-conversions to Orthodoxy. During 'revindication', Polish authorities tried to 'derusify' some regions - at least that is what they believed they were doing - there is talk about 'derusification' in official papers.


Source: The Search for Stability in Late Imperial Russia, Abraham Ascher, 2001



Source: Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine, Timothy Snyder, 2007.

In Russian? Is that how Ukrainian nationalism looked like?


They are called this way in many publications, or 'Ukrainian Greek Catholics'. Is that wrong?
Search google for Greek Catholics in Ukraine

huri.harvard.edu/lib/bibliography/cont10.html

no, I don't like to waste my time on stuck - up ******* got some work to do, other then getting involved in another match with you. Boring and tedious.


prove it by quoting me, although I doubt that you can since your reading comprehension sucks:)

I am off for today.....be back later.

you are sneaky fellow, nevertheless Lwów should belong to Poland and Wołyn massacre cannot be justified!

Not to worry, Tusk will be burning down Catholic ones before too long. He is really gonna move Poland in a bad direction.

The failure of Ukrainian state (lost war againts Poles) + Polish policies + Ukrainian fascism + Demoralization of population and destruction of Ukrainian and Polish elites during WW2 + Territorial disputes = Volhynian slaughter.



Source: A Fascist hero in democratic Kiev, T. Snyder (a historian from Yale), published in The New York Review of Books, February 24, 2010.

It disgusts me how apparent Christians cross themselves before carrying out killings. Radovan Karadzic is a prime example. Sorry Crow, but he is a war criminal. So many others had better think twice before crossing themselves, Tusk included.

Thats the best summary in a pill i have seen for a long time.

It must be said that UPA conscripted people under pain of death and killed at least 30.000 ukrainians as well but sadly that doesnt make the extent of the ukrainian crime any smaller, the reasons any less cowardly.

Even today ukrainians like Nathan and Aphrodisiac approach the subject dishonestly, Nathan openly denies it while Aphro being a rather smart fellow simply avoids it, this entire thread has one reason and thats to focus on small polish-ukrainian incidents rather then on the Volhynia massacres of the polish citizens by ukrainians.

The fact is Poland had all the power in the world to exterminate ukrainians, even during WW2 Home Army could have easily cleanse Volhynia, it didnt, this just shows that untill the end Poles never descended to the dephts of barbarism ukrainians did, despite the horrific tragedy happening all around them polish soldiers refused to target women, children and elderly like their ukrainian counterparts did.

You should do self-cleansing, that's for sure.

How destroying and burning Ukrainian churches equals so-called "restoration" of Polish Catholicism in Ukraine?


Uniates have never made majority in Ukraine. Why do you make stuff up? Uniates more nationalistic? Read more of Ukrainian history and you will realize that the main national spirit of Ukraine was upheld by Orthodox believers, not Catholics. Ukrainians who fought Poles and Russians in 16th, 17th and 18th centuries were overwhelmingly Orthodox.


Wow, quite a title and again Timothy Snyder ;)


How is it connected to burning Ukrainian Orthodox churches which existed in Volyn, Chelm and L'viv region for centuries? Why do you show pictures of UNBURNED RUSSIAN CHURCH IN THE MIDDLE OF FREAKING CAPITAL OF YOURS and give this as an example of your REVINDICATION on RUSSIAN policy while you burnt UKRAINIAN CHURCHES in HUNDREDS all over western regions of Ukraine? Why didn't you burn this one then??? Ha???


Again Russian tsar policy and it was in Vilnius (Lithuania), not Poland.

There you had 150 years of Polonization and Latinization, which included similar policies you did during 1920s and 1930s. If you managed to burn over 210 Ukrainian churches, burn libraries, close schools and expel Ukrainian profs from every university in your reach within 19 years, guess what you did in 150 years in 16-17th centuries. Ukraine before 16th century was almost exclusively orthodox, with universities and schools and churches which had lectures about Orthodox faith, not Catholic. Everything started to change after Brest 1596.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Greek_Catholic_Church

In order to survive and get a better job people at those time accepted Uniate faith as it still contain the same Orthodox rite, only recognition of pope was new. But who cared about a dude in Rome as long as you may pray in your own language.


I mean what kind of statement is that? ;) Did they measure faith at that time by some electronic devices?


Wow, that Snyder is something! ;) So, basically Poles did everything even ukrainize Ukrainians. That's phenomenal.


As of 2008, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is estimated to have 4,284,082 faithful
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Greek_Catholic_Church

Looks strange, doesn't it? After 230 years? Polish sources and Tymothy Snyder are famous for blowing everything up out of proportions to prove their "point".


It is anachronism still in use. I hope this out of place word will be replaced.

If I have to wait for your opinion, I can wait until I'm a 100 years old as you don't have seem to have any opinion about anything whatsoever, but instead lard any thread you participate in with personal remarks. And since I do at least an efford to contribute, your comment is, I would nearly say as usual, uncalled for.


Not necessarily losing, but he has succeeded in turning the whole topic upside down, turning it from Church destroying Poles into a discussion about murderous Ukrainian fascist organisations.


Yes - a lot of Poles seem to forget that the Ukrainians saw the Poles, like the Soviets as enemies. Also a reason why they thought the Nazis were their liberators; a notion they would quickly come to regret, but that's a besides. I know it's hard to imagine that anybody on this godforgotten planet saw the Poles as enemies, but the Ukrainians did. And they could bring up little love or sympathy for Polish policies aimed at the eradication of Ukrainian culture in the Ukrainian territories occupied by Poland. And then when the Polish govt had the guts to actually bring Polish settlers in an attempt to humiliate the original Ukrainian population even further, it didn't hit the good-will charts among the Ukrainians either.

Instead of focusing on all the terrible crimes that happened back and forth, it's imo better to look at the causes. If for example a piece of Polish territory gets occupied after a war and the occupier tries to equal it culturally with his own culture and send settlers in to make it even more his own, you would probably have no objection when bands of Poles would start killing those settlers.

Now, let's go back to the original topic at hand.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Well, M-G I wouldn't expect it from you. I cannot say that I agree with all of it but it is impressive.
However it has little to do with the thread topic.