Mongolian the Golden Horde - do Poles have Mongolian ancestry?

That and the complexity of DNA/RNA.

BTW, I find my own family tree of passing interest only, however it does go back reasonably reliably to the Mongol Horde

Yes I've been saying the same for a long time.

Family history is very interesting and a worthwhile thing to research.

I had my DNA done and found out although I was 100% Polish (I thought) I also have genes that are Chinese and Japanese. So I attribute that to the Mongol invasions of 1240-1241. DNA profiles are about $299.00 unless you are part of a research project.

Nanamom3, I really doubt it though. You should send your raw data (from23&me?) to :

Doug McDonald will perform BioGeographical Ancestry (BGA) testing of your data file to determine where your ancestors are likely to be from (similar to Ancestry Painting). This is a free service. To participate, e-mail your zipped raw data file to REMOVETHISmcdonald@scs.REMOVETHISuiuc.edu.

From what I gathered he is pretty good at finding more exotic ancestry (ex jewish, native american, japanese and the like).
There's a link if you want to 'play' with your result more:
gedmatch dot com

no

Poland is in technically a county that's in the eastern part of Central Europe,but it's still a Slavic speaking country,even though the Polish alphabet is very similar to the alphabet of the UK,Spaine,France etc.,Mongolians invaded much of eastern Europe,and part of Poland,especially in the southeastern part of Poland.I've read ,and believe it 100%,because I've seen people that were full blooded Polish that looked Asian,and even some that looked a lot like Native Americans.My mother has jet black hair,high cheekbones,and a naturally light yellowish brown skin.Her father was full blooded Polish,and he was short,had brown skin that had a yellowish tint to it,and coarse thick hair.His brother and sister were both blonde with blue eyes though

I find the Golden Horde and Tatar Yoke to be often overlooked chapters in Eastern European History, and history as a whole.

Yes, I would say a considerable number of Poles, and Eastern Europeans in general, have some Mongol and Tatar extraction.

The Golden Horde/Qipchak were the least East Asian of all the Mongol Khanates. Most were Turkics.

I believe the only areas they didn't invade were Latvia and Estonia (The Teutonic Territories). I could be wrong about that though.

I think that you don't know much about either and views you may have on the subject are just unattenuated stipulations of yours.

Care to elaborate, then?

Sure


You are compressing here a great distances on land, different people and different periods of times - that is mush -mash which doesn't makes sense.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde#Fall_.281480.E2.80.9315 02.29

Secondly Golden Horde or Tatars never ruled Poland or in Poland or over parts of Poland.
Thirdly maybe it is overlooked in books and historiography written in the English language.


Some do most do not!
Poles for a good three hundred years of their history has been a melting pot of ethnicity ranging from Scots to Armenian, so you could put there one Tatar or two.

Generally speaking however their impact on the genotype of the general population was not that great.

In the U.S. The Tatar and Golden Horde history is overlooked. Probably not in Eastern Europe. I was being too general in my claim.

Not all Poles have Tatar extraction. Some do some don't. Some have 1/12th Tatar, some have more, some have none at all. It varies. It isn't a good or bad thing. Poles in Poland will always be Poles.

The Tatars and Golden Horde didn't rule Poland or Lithuania. But, they did routinely attack areas. They almost made it to Austria at one point, even. Though my history on that maybe fuzzy.

It maybe overlooked in other parts of the world, too. But not Eastern and probably not Central Europe.

Most don't. Regardless it being bad or good. Pure fact.


They made it few time to strike deeply into territory of Poland and Hungary. It was in 13th and 14th after that the only Tatars attacking Polish Territory (now part of Ukrainian) came from their settlement on Crimea and those attacks were nothing more than rides to rob or steal people to sell them on Ottoman Empire slave markets. So if there were DNA admixture it was on the Ottoman Turkish and Tatar population not the other way around or seldom.


You are talking about Ottoman empire and 1686. They didn't have to cross Polish territory to make it into Austria. You need to read a couple of books more and do not forget geography.

Yes, well then I guess I was mistaken. I admit that I was erroneous in thinking this.

My knowledge of the Golden Horde and Tatar Yoke is limited and more general, so I have to read more about it.

Mongolian admixture in Poland is a myth: polishgenes.blogspot.com/2013/03/no-mongolian-admixture-in-poland.html

Don't do the AncestryDNA risks. Ancestry.com has not gotten their atDNA-test act together yet.

Dear Lodz the boat,

Yes there is a Polish village in Turkey, but when speaking of Tatars being Turk, that is different. Turk as in TURKMENISTAN Just as Mongolia.... the steppes of central Asia. Tatars were a side branch that were troublesome to Ghengis Khan

Amen. No one can tell me otherwise about my family. My great uncles and great grandmother. Gajda. maziarz. Have strikingly strong Asian features. Jaslo poland

Awesome. I am positive same with my Michigan Polish fam...... Maziarz Gajda. From Jaslo Poland

Me too. I'd like to share my fam pics

Some do, some don't. So you may or may not have it at all. You may equally well have Baltic or Jewish origins. Being Ukrainian doesn't imply you'll have a certain genepool or be of a certain complexion/have certain eye, hair color.

Funny to behold how no one wants to be a Turk or a Mongol in this thread.

Huns, Avars, proto-bulgars and Khazars were the Turkic folks who had lived in that geography. On the other hand, Ottomans ruled Crimea, Podolia, todays Odessa, and east of crimea that means almost all the South parts of Ukraine. So Ironside, you need to read a couple of books too :)

My grandmother on dad's side looks mongol a little, she was teased all her life (friendly and unfriendly way) by others because of her looks. Her sister looks similar. Even though they were born in Poland. But their dad had interesting surname - Nogaj , which sounds like the name of Nogai Tribe, but it can also mean 'Leg' so we're not sure here.

Definitely my dad also doesn't look 100% Polish

Anyway, when I got married with Japanese, and he and his family came to Poland, my grandma was so happy she said 'Look! finally I found someone who looks similar to me'! (and later she was bragging a lot about this experience lol)

I wish I had a photo of my grandmother handy, because as a young woman, although 100% Polish and a devout Catholic (entire family from Poznan), had racial characteristics highly suggesting Mongol or Tatar heritage. The Asiatic eyes, high-cheekbones, and pale skin color is unmistakable. I agree that it's possible that these features may have arrived in our family from Russia, 100 or 200 years ago. But if so, there are probably many others of Polish extraction where this is true. There are no other obvious explanations for this, in my opinion.

There are three historical Mongol invasions of Poland and Eastern Europe in general.

1st. 1241
2nd. 1260
3rd. 1287

It is obviously likely that some Mongol genes were left in the Polish gene pool.
Nothing to be ashamed of, Mongols were tough, resilient and resourceful warriors.

My paternal Grandfather Michieslaw Golinski (born late 1800's) had distinct epicanthic eye-folds (oriental eyelids), and a sallow-yellowish skin color. Otherwise he looked typical Pole. No, he did not have liver problems or jaundice.

Most Mongol genes have been so diluted over the past 750 years that it's hard to detect physically, and even DNA gene dropout ensures it won't always show in DNA tests.

But, since the Mongols were horny, and the Polish women exotic (to them), the obvious happened.

and how many times they ruled Poland? 0...


You have an interesting way of describing the act of rape.


The scientific testes have proved that vast majority of Poles don't carry any genes that could belong to Mongols. If they can be found it's mostly in certain areas in far east Poland where the Mongols have reached. If your grandfather was lucky enough to be from one of those areas it's good for him. Maybe learning a bit of Mongolian language would be better than Polish as I suggested you in the other thread :-)

I am a pole from southern Poland near Krakow. The area were my family lives was once the center of mongol raids in Poland. I am not saying that our people are half Slavic half Tatar, but it my family there is a definite Asiatic twist. My uncle, mother and myself have very Slavic features, but our faces are very broad and our eyes are slightly elongated and squity. One of my cousins has even has extra skin over her eyes,making them look very Asiatic in some angles. One of the most important things is that we are all dark, with brownish black hair and eyes. While I disagree with people who say that we poles hide a mongol inside, I also disagree with people who say the Tatars did not leave a genetic mark on the polish population. I see this Asiatic influence not only in my family,but in other poles as well. The lands of Poland Lithuania were once populated by 300,000 polish Tatars. These Tatars contributed to the polish state in many more ways than one can imagine, and I am sure that many integrated into mainstream polish culture by becoming Catholic and marring Slavic poles.

May be I should make my self clear. I believe that their is very little mongol east Asian in polish population. I do believe their is definitely a good share of central Asian Turkic mixing with poles and Slavs in general. Their is a difference between a pure Mongol and a Turkish Tatar.

Ah, we are all a mix, some more some less.
It's a good thing.
Racial purity is a Nazi theme....

Just to add my two cents to this conversation, my mother and grandmother have 100% Polish ancestry, at least as far as we've traced back to the mid-1700s in Poland...but there is one stubborn segment of DNA that shows up (pretty much unchanged in size) on my grandmother's, mother's, and my DNA when we did 23andMe and which they identify strongly as Mongolian. It's 0.3% of our genome. My explanation, if it isn't just a total fluke of the ancestry algorithm they're using, is that this must be a holdover from the Mongol invasions of the 1200s.

Litewka: youtube.com/watch?v=Zyqtzl3z4RU
Litwini: youtube.com/watch?v=vPVYB9JKRBg
Litwini: youtube.com/watch?v=WOvrKFSICeU
Litewka tez: youtube.com/watch?v=GNaFpbRSfXI

for polish people & belarusian look to the suffix of the family name: -ewicz as the desigantion "son of" used when tatars were absorbed into the Polish calvary and given status

I've always maintained the Poles, more than the Czechs or certainly the Southern Slavs, have a distinctly Asiatic cast to their faces. Just look at a majority in profile and it's as plain as day. The high cheekbones and tightly-drawn skin, plus the often course hair, all bear clear Asian similarity. They're to be sure a mixture of the Germanic (as stated many times before), the Slavic, the Baltic and, of course, that of their more Eastern cousins:-)

Thank you Lodz The Boat. You are right. There is also a study about Mongol and North Chinean ancestry of Polish Tatars published in Internet. I am interested in the subject because of the great ballet dancer, coreographer and ballet master Vaslav Nijinsky, who had patriotic Polish Tatars as parental relatives and beautiful Polish mother.