1...Slavs share a common GrecoRoman history with us...and it has a starting point, a marker point in history generally ragarded as the top end of the 6th Century A.D. The Ancient [Macedonian] history belongs to Greeks!
2...Greeks supported the Serbs Unconditionally and they paid a heavy price for that...Nato demands full team membership and behaviour, the Greeks paid a heavy price for supporting the Serbs!
3...The Serbs were amongst the first to recognize SouthSlavs as Macedonians, much to the detriment of the Greeks....Serbians expect what exactly...???
4...SlavMacedonians have done nothing but ridicule and humiliate Greeks, using revisionism and pseudo-history and the Institutions of state to promote anti-Hellenic propaganda!
5...Greeks do Not Betray Friends...The potential for Others to Stir and to Agitate is evident in the real politik of the Balkans!
Alexander the Great was the Greek Hellenic King of Macedon and the ancient Macedonians were a Greek Hellenic People...so say 371 International Classicist Scholars, see macedonia-evidence.org
Not exactly.They were considered Greeks a bit mixed with barbarians.
no. ancient Macedonians were Sarmatians (Thracians) or Proto Slavs if you want, who were Hellenized. They were not Hellenized by mixing with Hellenes/Greeks. Hellenization was cultural movement.
No! They were Greek Hellenic people, just like the Spartans...Macedonians were Greeks, Not different Race to Greeks or seperate to Greeks, they were Greeks!
Slavic School messed your brain, right dude...Where did you learn that Silliness!
Macedonians Walked like Greeks and Talked like Greeks...They No Walk or Talk like ProtoSlavs or Sarmats!
The potential for Others to Stir and to Agitate is evident in the real politik of the Balkans!
Cool down man.We didn't pay heavy price for supporting the Serbs.Serbs had more sympathies.Recognition of FYROM by Serbs was anticipated after all they were states in Yugoslavia.Slavomacedonians overdo with ancient history by claiming impossibilities but say some right things regarding modern history which are important for us to know.Greeks have betrayed friends some times for example we did not declare war to Austrohungary in 1914 when she attacked Serbia despite the common action in case of war treaty which we signed in 1911 with Serbia.
Our focus should remain on whether SouthSlavic people have the right to take from Greeks elements of their cultural heritage and then proceed to present those elements directly to the outside world as exclusively their own!
I say they are not entitled to do this...to usurp the history and heritage of the ancient Macedonians in order to present them as SerboBulgarian Speaking Proto-Slavic ethnic Macedonians!
As for cooling down...I never sweat it!
Like I said...I came here to gauge the opinions of the Polish people regarding Alexander the Great, but thus far I converse with another Greek plus the Crow dude who projects himself as a Serb!
I am not here to rock the boat or to disturb the harmony...I am here to do what I said in my Introductory post!
Ancestor singular...Ancestry group concept, may equate to people of the same speech and of the same genus, the blood aspect of the discussion must be put into perspective!
Lineage or descent to and from ones ancient ancestor's is usually considered to take the form of direct blood connections.....but language and culture play their part and are just as important, after all, ancient groups, tribes or kingdoms absorbed outsider, foreign
newcomer [blood] influence into their collectives at one time or another.
Linguistically and Culturally the ancient Macedonians were a Greek Hellenic people, an established academic reference point. Todays Greeks are the modern Representatives of the Hellenic legacy....Spanning Ancient Hellenes, Greco-Romans, Greek Romioi, Greek Byzantines and now modern Greeks, they can trace their history and heritage back in seemless "backwards compatible" fashion, consistant with and synchronized to the established historical record.
The word "race" although not easily defined is used in this case to describe ancient European peoples who cross fertilized [[by force][free will]] and then went on to produce the most resiliant dominant Indigenous autochthonous collective of peoples known to us today as the ancient [Greeks] Hellenes.
The ancient Hellenes then went on to develop a language and a culture which became so dominant, other neighbouring peoples succumbed to it's superior elements. Hellenism was then accepted as the culture of choice by those ancient groups tribes and kingdoms which collectively evolved into the far wandering Hellenes.
Proving through the means of Blood and Dna, ones Ethnic origins or ones Indigenous Autochthonous status, back to ones Ancestral homelands is taken for granted nowaday's....but it is not that simple, a simple swab test can provide some answers but not all of them, for example we can prove 100% that blood and Dna are not relative to Ethnicity, at least within a race, so is there such a thing as race....The concept of race is a very powerful one, but it has little basis in genetic studies. Large scale Dna analysis of our direct male and female lines has shown that we are all descended from a small number of ancestors and these distant ancestors lived in different places at different times. We are all descended from prehistoric paleolithic and neolithic peoples...Ultimately, we are all descended from people who lived in Africa many thousands of years ago.
Blood and Dna are not related to ethnicity at least within a race...100% proof = Ottoman Janissaries, these were European christian children raised to be good Turks, tutored into commiting the most barbaric attrocities on their own European Kith and Kin...their blood and Dna was Not Turkish, so if Blood and Dna are not correlated to Ethnicity then what is it all about, what is Ethnicity and how do you best define Ethnicity in modern times, more importantly how was Ethnicity defined in ancient times during antiquity!
Ethnicity is one of the most awkward of subjects to discuss and to come up with a definative universal answer to which we could all use as a reference point. For me it is quite simple, Ethnicity is...Pride!
Macedonians are those people who remained proud to have retained that Greek language and that Hellenic culture which connects them back to that campaign their ancestor's Initiated to expand Hellenism, the Greek Hellenic language Knowledge and Culture to the furthestmost regions of the Then known world.
Polish Dna is distinguished for having a high concentrations of the haplogroup marker R1a...said to be the Slavic gene but as we have learned, haplogroups are not specific to race or ethnic groups so it is wrong to Stigmatize R1a with Slavs when it is also prevailant in some Turkics, namely Kyrgistanis and Tajikistanis.
Curiously...SouthSlavs carry that R1a gene at about the same [concentrations] frequency as Greeks, in fact the Greek and SouthSlavic genetic signature is close...closer than it is to say the SouthSlav to Polish signature or Russian signature!
The Southernmost Slavs to Greeks appear to be nominal Slavs...Slavic in language and customs only, bringing into question the possibility that some of them originate from the Autochthonous populations of the Haemus peninsula and are just Slavicized Indigenous Greeks in plain and simple terms!
You mean, the red is all Slavs? Actually it can't be because Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are definitely not Slavic.
I know. Having the R1a haplogroup does not mean you're Slavic. India and Tajikistan have a high frequency of R1a. Does that mean people from there are Slavic? Obviously no. I posted that map to show that some people in this thread have no idea what the hell they're talking about. That's especially true for Southern who has some weird obsession with Slavic people.
Also, the latest scientific studies have shown evidence that the R1a haplogroup most likely originated in South Asia.
Tadjiks are from Persian stock and dislike to be grouped in with Turkic peoples so I detract the Turkic attribute but the R1a concentration in Tadjikistanis and Eastern Iranians is high like the Poles!
We should all accept that we are all mixed, some more than others and in the Greek case, it took >230 ancient groups tribes and kingdoms to collectively form the Hellenes and that did Include the ancient Macedonians!
Intelligent discussion ofcourse! This is what we want...Not Censorship!
Greeks like the Poles are Proud of their Heritage, we do not take kindly to those who willfully and systematically contaminate our history with pseudo-history using their own Institutions of state to disperse versions of history which are far outside the mainstream standard.
Greeks like the Poles are Proud Peoples, comfortable in the knowledge they carry certain hereditary responsibilities entrusted unto them from ages past!
Greeks like the Poles value knowledge and the academic disciplines which placed the Polish Peoples and the Greek Hellenic peoples where they are today.
Greeks like the Poles...are both legally and morally obliged to defend and protect what is theirs by way of historic and hereditary rights.
Modern Polish Peoples are not Slav by Virtue of their Dna, the Polish People are Slavonic by Virtue of their language and their customs, and the cultural traditions they Inherited from ages past...The exact same thing can be said for the Modern Greeks!
Greeks are Greek by Virtue of the language they Speak and of all the other semingly important things which enable Geneticists, Athroplogists, Linguists, Demographers and Ethnographers to place them where they are today, into the Greek Hellenic Collective of Peoples...we do not take kindly to NoN Greeks taking from us, elements of our cultural heritage which did not belong to them in the first place!
Blood and Dna are important factors in determining where your roots and ethno-origins lay but that information may be incompatible with who you are today...ones ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic traditions are formed over many decades, generations sometimes, up to five maybe 6 generations go by before full assimilation takes effect.
Modern Polish Peoples are not Slav by Virtue of their Dna, the Polish People are Slavonic by Virtue of their language and their customs, and the cultural traditions they Inherited from ages past..
I disagree.DNA is very important.For example the Syrians and Egyptians had greek culture from 3rd-1st century BC.This did not make them Greek.
But Syrians and Egyptians did not Identify as Greeks, and Greeks did not consider them Greek...Greeks considered them Syrians and Egyptians, right!
Rule of Thumb......
I can belong to an Ethnic group If I really want it...and only If that Ethnic group accept me, it is called assimilation and it can take decades even generations to take effect!
Example:
The Prodestant Hugenouts expelled from France in the past have been fully absorbed into British society!
Using Blood and Dna as Tools for arguing in favour of hereditary continuity or ethnic-racial purity risks placing the Greeks with unwholesome nationalistic Ideologies and unwelcome doctrines.
Greeks can argue their case without the need to bring blood and Dna into the equation...The Other side should be enticed to forward their arguments using Blood and Dna to back up their claims!
I agree with Nick. There are Poles who are descendants of Germans who were polonized ages ago. They don't speak German and they don't know much about German culture besides Oktoberfest hehe. In my view, they are Poles, not Germans. Enough said.
I'm an American of European descent but I do not go around saying I'm a European. I was raised in America. I have an American accent. I celebrate the 4th of July and Thanksgiving. I am an American.
The Afrikaners of South Africa do not consider themselves Dutch which is what a lot of idiots seem to think. One of the reasons why Afrikaners began speaking Afrikaans more frequently than Dutch was because the Afrikaners were rebellious and wanted to stray away from the Dutch lifestyle. Children would be punished in school if they were caught speaking Dutch. The funny thing is, many Afrikaners are not even of Dutch descent. The French, Germans, and British came to the mix as well. There are even minorities of Polish descent.
The apartheid government classified the Afrikaner as any white person who spoke Afrikaans as a native language. Nowadays, there is no strict monolithic definition. I hear many South Africans considering themselves Afrikaners simply because they live the Afrikaans lifestyle.
Are you sure he agrees with you? Wouldn't Slavs living in Macedonia for hundreds of years now be able to call themselves Macedonians according to your reasoning, but that is exactly what Nick objecs to seeing it as:
NoN Greeks taking from us, elements of our cultural heritage which did not belong to them in the first place!
Slavs living in Macedonia...are we talking about former ex-Yugoslavs or are we talking about Slavophone Macedonians, the former vehemently anti-Hellenic whilst the latter, amongst the most fanatic of Hellenes.
There is No room for Vagueness here...Greeks do Not recognize Macedonians that are Not Greek, this is the political stand point!
Slavs using the Macedonian name in the ethnic-racial sense and in the national context, riles the Greeks because a nation of Macedonians outside of the Greek Hellenic core never ever existed in the past or even in the ancient past. Macedonian have always been Intrinsically linked to the Greek Hellenic Identity, inextricably connected to the Greek Hellenic Collective of peoples.
To create a nation of NoN Greek Macedonians Now and awarding them with the history and heritage associated with the Macedonian name would be Anathema for Greeks...We simply could Not accept it, for Greeks that scenario would seen as an abomination, a cause for further Instability, trouble and strife in a region of the world which already suffers from those elements in large measure!
Greeks would accept SlavMacedonians as neighbours, living in a country called SlavijaMakedonija or similar...a formula does exist for the peaceful co-existance of SlavMacedonians and GrecoMacedonians, the former reside in FYRoM whilst the latter reside in the Hellenic Republic!
Nick the Greek: Modern Polish Peoples are not Slav by Virtue of their Dna, the Polish People are Slavonic by Virtue of their language and their customs, and the cultural traditions they Inherited from ages past...The exact same thing can be said for the Modern Greeks!
I haven't read the entire thread but if he's contradicting himself then whatever. I'm just going by what he said most recently. Giving me a quote out of context is not very useful for me...
EDIT: Here's something he wrote that should clear that up for you Des Essientes.
Blood and Dna are important factors in determining where your roots and ethno-origins lay but that information may be incompatible with who you are today..
Are Slavophone Macedonians Slavs in your estimation? I assume not. If a Slav living in Macedonia could speak Greek and followed Greek customs would you ever call him a Macedonian?
1...Slavophone Macedonians are Slavic speaking Greeks, they espouse to having Greek conscious...their valour on the battle field for the Hellenic cause went on record as being legendary.
2...Remember the Rule of Thumb...If it Walks like a Greek and it Talks like a Greek and does what Greeks do, and is accepted by other Greeks as a Greek...Then this guy is Greek!
Slavs wanting to use an ancient and archaic Greek Hellenic name for their New Slavic country for their New Nationality for their SerboBulgarian language and for their Modern Ethnicity...They should at least distinguish themselves from Greeks by adding a prefix/suffix in front of the Macedonian name in order to differentiate themselves [SlavMacedonians] from GreekMacedonians, the differences are considerable, for example:
Todays Greeks are the Sole and Legal custodians, the modern representatives of the ancient Hellenic legacy, which does Include Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity. No other people on this planet are closer to them than todays modern Greeks.
I say again...Greeks do Not recognize Macedonians that are Not Greek, because Macedonians have always been Greek Hellenic people and we can prove it!
If a Slav living in Macedonia could speak Greek and followed Greek customs would you ever call him a Macedonian?
It is a core question.You need to know the history of the region to answer it because it is very complicated.Let's say that a Slavomacedonian can be transformed in one night into an Albanian,in one night into a Greek,or a Bulgarian or even a Serb.The same person can get a whole new identity by slight switch.(happening often historically).
Home / Genealogy / Polish DNA? Poles have the most genes in a group includes Balts, Macedonians and Greeks.
