From Hertfordshire, UK to Śląskie, Poland - Are we crazy?

Hi all I'm new to the forum. My wife of 8 years and I, along with our twin 6 year old boys are seriously considering moving to Poland. We live in the UK, I'm Irish my wife's Polish and our kids are British but have Polish registration. We are both in our mid to late 30's. We have a good life in the UK, we both have jobs, my job as a business director makes things financially comfortable and we own our home with a decent mortgage left to pay. Kids are in Year 1 and are doing well.

I have lived in the Uk for 14 years and my wife for 16 years. Despite this it doesn't feel like home for either of us. After years of discussion on and off about moving to Ireland/Poland we are about to make the decision to move to Poland this summer. My Wife won't be happy in Ireland whereas I am more comfortable with the thought of Polish living.

Neither I nor our 2 boys speak Polish fluently although we all have the ear for Polish and I can manage the real basics. The plan initially at least for the first few years would be that I continue in my job in UK and split the week up 4 days Poland/3 days UK. Initially we would stay with my Wife's mum and eventually look to build.

Our reasons for moving?.
- my wife's mums health
- sense of community which we don't have in UK
- I grew up in rural Ireland so always dreamt of having a bit of land and a spacious home (not possible in the UK)
- With the difference in the cost of living we could be financially independent sooner if I continue to bring in ££
- Eventually have a slower pace of life
- better and safer environment for the kids to grow up in
- Polish Summers

Our Concerns
- Kids going to school without full grasp of language
- Strain on relationship with me being away half the week
- moving back in with mum!
- Kids adapting to new country
- getting citizenship for me
-Taxation rules

My concerns
- my rights in Poland should anything ever happen between me and my wife
- our friends (both polish) recently moved back to Poland and within 3 months their son went from speaking only English to speaking only Polish and refusing to speak in English. I doubt I will pick up the language that fast!

- will I ever be accepted as a real part of the community or will I always be an outsider
- will I ever be able to work in Poland, it's a big change from what I'm used to

Now that I've given my life story I'm just interested to hear if anyone on here has had any similar experiences and either would challenge our reasons for moving or has words of advice for any of our concerns.

I hope to hear from you. Thanks.

Hi Mac, I'll call you that for short if you don't mind :) I'm Irish, married to a Polish man and I've lived in Warsaw for over six years now so here's my bit of perspective for what it's worth. Being Irish, I tend to be a bit long winded so to avoid waffling I'll try to answer your points in a concise manner!

Regarding your reasons for moving, I would be cautious about two things. The slower pace of life is a dream for many but it's hard to achieve even in Poland. As for better and safer environment for your children, in what way better and safer? The education system in Poland is no great shakes, the air is the most toxic in the EU and the roads are the most dangerous. And your kids' future will be in the hands of political parties like PIS which doesn't bode too well. You have a border with Russia and Belarus and they're talking about building a wall to keep out refugees. Poland is very much a post-communist country and you'll become aware of that once you live in it. This is what's going on at the border at the moment:

dw.com/en/medics-leave-poland-belarus-border-without-reaching-migrants/a-60353514

As to your concerns:

Kids and the language in school. I was a primary school teacher in Ireland and taught many foreign kids. Don't worry. The boys will adapt. Academically they may struggle a bit for the first year but socially they should be fine. Kids tend to use play to communicate with each other and they can socialize with less need of language, especially boys :) However, the education system from what I've seen of it is a bit chalk and talk and doesn't encourage much in the way of developing thinking skills. The old education system was reformed by PO and the standards had risen considerably but PIS changed it back to the previous system.

Strain on your relationship - absolutely, there will be and not just on your relationship with your wife but it will undermine your relationship with your children too.

Moving in with mother-in-law .......................do you really need me to commnent?? The dynamic of your family will change utterly if you are living away from home at least half the time and the rest of it is spent in your mother-in-law's house and it won't be a short-term arrangement either. You're looking at a couple of years.

Citizenship for you - why would you want it?? You're Irish, you're an EU citizen, you don't need it. There would be no difficulties though if you wanted it as long as you pass the language requirement.

Taxation rules - what's your specific concern?

Your own concerns:

Your rights - oh Lord! that's a tough one. It's completely different to the UK and Ireland. It would take a whole thread in itself to discuss but basically it's heavily geared towards the mother of the kids and it can be very hard to enforce your visitation rights and child support can be any figure they pluck out of the air. They don't base it on your income and outgoings but on your potential earnings. If you admit fault in a divorce you're obliged to support your wife financially for the rest of her life unless she remarries.

Language - it's difficult. You won't learn it quickly and you'll have to be very consistent with keeping up the studying. It takes a lot of work but it's possible. It's quite possible to learn enough to cope with everyday life but your grammar will never be perfect. People won't mind though and they'll understand you anyway. However if you want to go for citizenship you'll have to work at the grammar if you want to pass the language exam.

Will you be accepted - yes, you will. The fact that you have 'Polish' children will be a help but speaking the language is key. If you speak the language people will accept you. but you must understand Mac, that the mindset in rural Poland is so different to the UK or rural Ireland :) your outlook and attitudes will be so different that you may find it hard to fit in. People in modern rural Ireland are fairly open minded, tolerant and are quite well informed. The Irish have always been an outward looking people despite being an island nation. Poles are quite insular and in rural areas they are pretty conservative compared to Ireland. So you may find that you don't have much in common with your neighbours and you might feel a bit isolated and lonely.

Will you be able to work in Poland - it depends on what your job is. You say 'business director' ; that's a bit vague. What area of business? To be honest without fluent Polish your options are limited unless it's a foreign company that specifically wants an English speaking manager who doesn't need to know Polish. And yes, Polish work culture is pretty different to the UK.


Why not?

To conclude I'll just say that there are plenty of Irish and English people who've moved to Poland and seem to be happy here and maybe you'll be one of them, but don't underestimate how difficult it is to adapt. Like many places, Poland is great for a holiday, but living here is a totally different kettle of fish and you're wise to have concerns. Go néirigh an t-ádh leat :))

Here's a couple of articles that you should read if you can find time. It's your future and your childrens' after all and you should go into it with your eyes open.

balkaninsight.com/2021/06/10/polish-ruling-partys-education-reforms-god-country/

polkong.com/driving-in-poland-surviving-on-europes-most-dangerous-roads/

notesfrompoland.com/2020/11/25/poland-has-eus-worst-air-pollution-shows-new-report/

notesfrompoland.com/2021/03/11/poland-is-worlds-most-autocratizing-country-finds-democracy-index/

I don't know much about parent and adult-child relationships in Ireland (or even the UK) but they are very different from those typical in the US.

The traditional American model is about adults reorienting their relationship with their parents into something more like friendship between equals (easier said than done).

That is not the Polish model where parents are authority figures for as long as they are alive and children are supposed to show them respect and not openly disagree with them about important issues (again... easier said than done).

In short... your wife living with her mother will be a very different person than she is living with you and her children and your relationship with your wife (and children) will be different in ways you cannot anticipate).

What I always say: Life in Poland can be great but it's not a user friendly country (in terms of language, culture and.. lots of other things). Language is crucial to fitting in and most english speakers have.... very little idea about how to effectively learn a language (especially a slavic language).

You'll also have to let go of lots of ideas about being able to change things.

For somebody who doesn't speak Polish well and is in the country only for about six years you are very opinionted. Are you parroting your man?


Hi, it won't be easy but you can make it.

Six years this time round. I've lived here before some years ago, so I've lived under the PO and PIS governments. I can even remember Andrzej Leper :) Anyway my opinions have a foundation in fact.

Hi Atch, no i dont mind i've been called worse :-) thanks for such a considered response. much appreciated.


You have a better view of it than me but i guess its all relative. From my perspective it has to be slower than the rat race of London. Perhaps Warsaw is just as any other city is. i'm not looking for city living and we would be moving to a much smaller town with access to a bigger city (Katowice).


Good question. Being able to let your kids wander off a bit just as i did when i was a kid. I wasnt accompanied everywhere. Have a decent size plot of land to be able to mess around in/climb trees make a fort. Knowing your neighbours who will know our kids and look out for them, and report back when they see something !. Basically everything you would expect in a small town.

Also let's face it alot of Poland is more conservative than western Europe, at least the places i have been are. Some of those traditional values I admire and see value in now i have a family. It's more the sense of tradition and family rather than anything religious.


My wife raves about the education system in Poland. She says it's very good. Although this maybe as you say because of the changes POL have introduced. I've ofter heard about gymnasium and my wife thinks the Polish system is better than the UK?. At least that was her experience.

Im up to date on the border issues, i actually visited Michalowo in the Summer near Bialystok, close to where it's all kicking off. To be honest i dont see this as an issue. The UK has been having similar problems with illegal immigration across the english channell for years.


Do you have kids or know of kids in the education system at the minute i'd be eager to hear anymore insight you have around the school system


i'm not sure what the difference in rights an EU citizen has in Poland vs a Polish citizen. In the UK there are differences albeit minor. I just want the full rights as a citizen but if i get that with a EU passport and residence permit then great !?


Yes my eyes are open to this, but i have no doubt i can do it if i perserve. i've done some lessons over the years, formal classes, tutors, Rosetta Stone. My last trip to Poland i was starting to speak more and more everyday i was there. But it quickly fades when your'e back in the UK surrounded by English. I've been told by many natives that my accent is very good. I put this down to years and years and years of listenting to Polish conversation, radio and music.

Do you have any tips ?. You seem to have been successful which gives me hope !


I know what you mean but you also have a lot of insular people who would never leave their county let alone their country. My dad, god rest his soul, never left Ireland and he never had a holiday because he would never leave the farm !.

I find the conservatism in Poland is actually very similar to Ireland and that is one of the draws for me. But i do get the feeling that an outsider is always an outsider. Having said that, i feel it also a common thread with the Irish, at least where i'm from it is.


I'm a Commercial Director of an Engineering & construction business. I'm not so concerned with finding a job as there is work all around Europe and as i've said i'm willing to do the travelling thing. My concern is will i be stuck for life doing this. Have you or anyone you know given up a successful and well paying career to move to Poland and maybe work for a lot less with a lot less future opportunity ?. I hope that doesn't sound too derogative of the Polish job market, it's not meant to be.

My wife doesnt want to move to Ireland because......................................you guessed it the weather !. Seriously she has a big issue with it and i dont blame her. I think the real reason is that she wants to return home and ireland would not ever be that for her.

Thank you for the links to the articles. Very interesting. Regards to the driving i'm aware of situation and have driven up and down the country in big cities and on country roads. However i think i've been lucky generally. i get the feeling the more frequently you drive the more you increase the chance of one of these unpleasant altercations!.

THanks once again for the response. It's so nice that you've given up your time to help a stranger.

Ah come on now Mac, I'm Irish - we're known for it:))


Oh I definitely see the attraction of that. But, not unlike Ireland, your chances of getting a decent job outside of the main big cities are small at best. So even if you can manage to give up the UK job after a while, you're likely to be looking at a hefty commute on 'Europe's most dangerous roads'....or as you say yourself, working all over Europe with constant travelling. Would you consider buying an existing house/farm with some substantial outbuildings and going down the agrotourism route as a long term plan? There wouldn't be a fortune in it but you could build it up over the years. The only thing is the restrictions on ownership of agricultural land by foreigners. I don't know the full details but there are ways round it. But agrotourism is a growing area and I'm sure you could create something really special especially as you have a farming background. You would need the missus to be completely on board though.


Funnily enough I'm told that as well - 'ale Pani mowi bez aksentu!'. I put it down to my husband correcting me on the sounds in the early days. He said you have to get your sounds clear, you don't want to sound like you come from the village, which apparently is the greatest crime in Poland lol!


Well I know what you mean about the boggers :) but still, I think the Irish are very different to the Polish.


It's not just the altercations, it's the terrible accidents that occur as a result of excessive speed, drunk driving and lack of attention to road conditions. Bear in mind that 12 years from now your boys will be living out in the boonies and they'll want to learn to drive and get their licenses. You say you want a safer environment for them. Move back to Ireland - cleanest air in Europe, safest roads in Europe, move to Poland - exact opposite. Sorry Mac, I'm not trying to be a misery, just saying, make the move to Poland by all means if it's what you want to do, but be clear about the full implications and realities of it. Don't kid yourself that it's somehow 'better' because it isn't. It's just different.


It really isn't. But I'll leave you to find that out for yourself :)


The gymnasium was abolished in 2017 :)) Yes, that's right, overnight. Kids who were expecting to go there ended up back in primary school! And your wife, if she's in her mid thirties was educated under two different systems. Her primary school was under the old communist style system and her secondary school was after the 1999 reforms. Those reforms saw huge improvements in standards of literacy and numeracy in Polish kids but they were overturned by PIS in 2017 and they returned to the old structure from the communist years. Look, Mac, like I say, this is a post-communist country and don't underestimate how that continues to influence life here. It lacks the stability of countries like the UK and Ireland. When PIS are ousted, no doubt there will be more changes and it's actually impossible to say what kind of education system/curriculum your kids will experience. I'd advise you to take time to read the articles below

balkaninsight.com/2020/01/02/polish-parents-and-teachers-blast-political-education-reforms/

dw.com/en/poland-education-reform-to-slash-thousands-of-teachers-jobs/a-40333721

Now here's the viewpoint from a parent who supports the reforms and note her reasons why, Pretty weak argument don't you think?

visegradpost.com/en/2017/09/07/great-education-reform-in-poland-the-pis-fulfills-one-of-its-election-promises/

Anyway, there you have it, I'd better get going. Eight o'clock in the morning and not a child in the house washed ;))

Please try to avoid excessive quoting folks, thanks.

Having lived with the family in Poland (Warsaw) for almost 6 years (2005-2010), I would second almost everything Atch wrote.. except the part above re Citizenship. In addition to our stint in Wrasaw, my family and I also lived 8 years in London, between 1993 and 2001. Being French and my wife Polish, my wife talked to me in 1999 about getting British citizenship for our children (at the time, you could apply after 5 years of residency, don't know if it's still the case). I said to her "what for, they already have dual French and Polish citizenship". In the end, I gave in ( as always :), and am very happy now that I did. Two of our children live and work in London, and if they did not have British citizenship, Brexit would have been a real nightmare for them. True, a Polexit is not on the cards today, but who know what the future has in store?

Hi Wincig :) as the OP is Irish, and his kids were born in the UK they won't have a problem. Children born to Irish in the UK automatically acquire British citizenship. Ireland and the UK have a special arrangement where we have full rights in each other's countries even without citizenship. It's Polish citizenship for himself that he's concerned about.

Precisely, that's what I mean, maybe I wasn't clear enough. If the OP intends to relocate to Poland and he doesn't get Polish citizenship, his life might become very difficult if there is at some point in time a Polexit, just like staying in the Uk without British citizenship would have been very difficult for my children..

Oh yes, of course. I see what you mean now! Sorry! Yes you have a point but as he's married to a Polish citizen I doubt that they'd throw him out in the same way that Brits married to Poles are able to stay in Poland post-Brexit. Of course if he and his wife were to split up it might complicate matters so you have a good point there.

if you link articles from 2017 sometimes please do check the veracity of them - as far as I know after the PiS education reform there have been no teachers who lost their jobs (contrary to what the politicised Union of Polish Teachers predicted)

edukacja.dziennik.pl/aktualnosci/artykuly/574853,men-reforma-nauczyciel-zwolnienia-praca-szkola-znp.html

also worth reading: bankier.pl/wiadomosc/5-wykresow-o-nauczycielach-w-Polsce-ktore-warto-zobaczyc-8206506.html

Atch, I hear your point on the roads and it's something I'll have to factor in. I have to say it's not something which would concern me moving to Ireland even though my memory of Irish roads is lots of needless young lives being lost and families ruined.

Wincig, your exactly right regards citizenship. If brexit shows anything then it's that unless you are a citizen you are always at the mercy of the state. My wife is going through the process of getting UK citizenship right now even though she had previously been granted indefinite leave to remain, which is bow worthless.

@MacAindreas

Atch makes some superb points.
Life in Poland is certainly not easy.
And as for peace and quiet.... unless you are living in the Cold wastes of beautiful Podlasie.....you won't see much of that either.

Poland is what you make of it.
It has it's positives and negatives.
But if you are prepared to make the effort.
You can make it work.

Hi Miloslow, thanks for the positive words. Regarding the peace and quiet I didn't mean it too literally. My mother in law lives in a small town not far from a main road but you tend to hear birds and cockerels in the morning rather than trucks which is the case in the nice suburban town I live in now.

Katowice is a good choice for expat. People in Silesia are not complicated and more open to foreigners.

Hi Alien, there is big changes happening in Katowice and it's an up and coming city attracting a lot of foreign investment. It's had to adapt due to the decline in the coal industry over the last 20 years.

Silesia is an interesting one. Apparently my wife is not Silesian, they speak differently I'm told!. It's interesting the history of the people who identify as Silesian who can be found not just in southern Poland but also Germany and other parts of Europe. More and more Poles are starting to identify first as Silesian and Polish second. Perhaps a bit like Catalonia?.

Not sure how much of this is spontaneous and how much is aided and abetted by EU and NGO subsidies to minority movements (as a way of weakening national cohesion?)

Catalonia was a different thing - those behind the original push for independence were never really that serious, it was always a ploy to get more money from the central government and then things got out of control when a few true-believers took over the project.

I have my views on the EU project but don't see what they would gain by weakening national cohesion especially in member states. During the Scottish independence push they never really got involved, nor with Northern Ireland (except to back the Republic which they had to do) and I think they back Spain in the Catalonia issue. NGOs, maybe, and possibly even backed by states secretly. Russia would benefit from a disunited Poland and Europe, athoughl there's no evidence for it I'm sure it's crossed the minds of those making decisions in the Kremlin.

Two things:

first, the EU project has different factions with different agendas and these often interact (with unpredictable results)

second, one of the goals of the EU is to replace national identity with 'European' identity so that people don't think of themselves as Italian or Swedish (or whatever) first but first as Europeans. Supporting minorities to develop their own regional identities weakens national identities (which then interacts with other policies with.... not great results)

third (bonus) the EU is very, very, slow and reactive. It takes a looooong time between noticing a policy isn't working and anything happening in response

Fair enough mafketis I take some of these points on the EU, their ultimate goal is to have a federal European state so breaking down national identity is one of the first steps to that goal.

So I've got some good advice on this thread and I feel more informed now than I did, but to summarise, taking all the negatives into account I'm guessing the positives probably outweigh all the negatives for all of you as you ?

I'm in a very different situation than you (tots obvs) but for me the positives _far_ outweigh the negatives (which I'm aware of).

But... how well do you know your mother-in-law? How much have you seen your wife interact with her? I've seen a _lot_ of young marriages have really bad times (or fail) because the parents insist on getting involved and the adult children just kind of... let them.

You have a very established relationship (if you're talking about school age children) but Polish parents, on the whole, are almost constitutionally unable to resist the urge to interfere. That seems like the real weak point (from my point of view) of your plan. And your wife in the UK might be a very different person than she is in Poland living under her mother's roof (lots of international marriages undergo a shock when moving to one spouse's homeland only to see the spouse revert to local ways....)

I'm a pretty different person in Poland than I was in the US (far more assertive, if you don't learn how to be assertive then you'll end up with footprints all over your face). But also I know the language really well and understand how things work (not necessarily what it seems on the surface).

As I always say, it can be great place to live but the learning curve.... she is steeeeep....

As Mafketis says all our individual circumstances are different and we all live here for different reasons. My perspective on life is different to yours because I also lived and worked in central London for several years and unlike you, I loved it. I always felt more at home in England than in Ireland. I had a lot of English friends and seemed to fit in there better. I'm not so keen on Poland but it may suit you :) Then Mafketis is American so for him, he's comparing life in Poland to life in the USA and America seems to be in a bad way these days, not a place I'd like to live. On the other hand, Ireland, despite having its own issues is still a great place to live in so many ways when it comes to quality of life. The main issue for most Irish people of your generation is the high cost of living and the difficulty of buying a house. Oh and of course work is always an issue, but then it will be in Poland too.

Like Maf, I'd have major concerns about living with your mother-in-law. Make no mistake that there will be three of you in the marriage and in the child rearing too - and if your mother-in-law's health is not great as you say, then it could well become a permanent arrangement. Would you consider renting out your house in the UK for a while at least and renting a place in Poland rather than moving in to your in-law's house?

The other concern I'd have is that although the boys will adapt, it's unfortunate that you're taking them out of school when they've just started and putting them into a completely different system. That will be disruptive undoubtedly. As a primary school teacher myself, I'd say that there are times in a child's life when it's more optimum than others to move them if it has to be done and one year into primary is not ideal. I presume they went through reception class and the equivalent of Irish junior and senior infants in the UK? The time to change would have been then at the end of the infant cycle.

I couldn't honestly say that provincial Poland is a better place to choose for raising a family than Ireland or the UK. Your boys will be children for a very short time and adults for many decades, God willing. Life in Poland as an adult is challenging. Poland can be a very harsh place in many ways, it still lags behind in many areas and so many things are much more difficult to do than in the UK or Ireland. Your children will be dealing with all that in not so many years from now.

Update to thread. Move is going ahead this August. Moving in with the mother in law. Kids starting public school yr 1 in sept. My wife finished her UK citizenship application today so will need to wait up to 6 months to get results but fingers crossed don't see it being a problem. I'm commuting back and forth between London/Katowice 3/4 split. Welcome any comments from anyone who has a similar commuting arrangement. Wizz air from Luton to Pryzowice is the best option for me for now. Booked my first 6 weeks and flights averaged £70 but I think I can get them for £50 once I get the hang of it.

If you can book well in advance this is possible sometimes. It was even cheaper for a while.

Good luck! Hope everything works out for you :)

Hi Mac, I think Polish citizenship would be important to consider if you intend to buy land or property in Poland.
Once you get out of the cities, Poland is still like a bit Ireland in the 1970s. In our village, everyone goes to church except us! And local politics is rooted in clientalism and deference.

Context: I am Irish, wife Polish (UK citizen), we are living in UK for a decade. We are also considering moving to either IRL or PL for similar reasons to yours. Wife currently in PL (mother ill), we have house there which we bought a few years ago [so no worries on the mother in law front!]. We drove over in the car first, back in April - 1,800 km, and left the car there.

I am now a Ryanair frequent flyer - was in PL two weeks ago, heading over again next week for 2 weeks and a bit. 7-months net UK, 4,5 months PL, 0,5 months IRL, that's my deal for now. It works, but you need to plan it. Short frequent trips are better than longer less frequent trips. Flying is cheap. Hopefully this winter's covid won't shut everything down again.

I am just about literate in Polish, though very rusty (was a bit better 10 years ago), having studied it intensely in the noughties [when all those people with a funny language began to come to Ireland! Great stuff!]. If you have any in to Polish, you will pick it up as you go along - I find mine improving each time I go. I was in Mrówka (a hardware chain like Woodies) a couple of weeks ago buying nails or something, and I learned the word for receipt - paragon, the hard way [they ask you if you want one, and expect the customer to understand them, heh]. They speak very fast, with a funny accent in rural PL, and there are no English speakers. Second time I was in the shop, I replied 'nie', instead of 'nie rozumieum' :D

Also, very important: watch your 183 nights in UK. Add a few days as a buffer, and remember to subtract any nights you may spend in third countries, Ireland visiting rellies for example.

To live in Poland permanently is knowledge of Polish language very important. Katowice is the best choice.

Ślōnsko godka comes quite easily there. Poznań dialect is easier however the people are less open.