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The true causes of the current war between Russia and Ukraine


Michael2
18 Aug 2023 #1
Let me explain the true causes of the current war between Russia and Ukraine. I believe the EU, US and NATO bear no guilt for the outbreak of the war between Russia and Ukraine in 2014, but Russia does, as Russia has been interfering into Ukraine's internal affairs since 1991 and made preparations and plans for a war against Ukraine from 2005, long before Euromaidan took place in late 2013.

Frequent interference by Russia into Ukraine's internal affairs (for example, in Ukraine's previous elections and in preserving past artificial Russification of Ukraine) since 1991 and especially in 2013 and early 2014 seeking to undermine Ukraine's sovereignty, economy, identity (Ukrainian culture, religion, language) and territorial integrity led to the war between Russia and Ukraine from 2014 until now.

All competent politicians know that Russia started the war against Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity in 2014 to subjugate Ukraine again, to establish a new Russian Empire to dominate the world, against democratic values and interests of the EU, US, UK, and against International Law. So Russia just seeks to conquer and to subjugate Ukraine again as well as other nations to establish a new Russian Empire to dominate the world as much as possible.

Falsifying Ukraine's history Russian officials often claim Russia's right to rule and control Ukraine in all respects as if Ukraine still were a part of Russia. Also, Putin's Russia claims the right to decide for other nations, in particular for Ukraine and other post-Soviet states on their security policies.

Ukraine, as a sovereign European country, has the right to join the EU and NATO in the future if certain requirements are met. Russia can't have a veto over the decision of Ukraine to join the EU and NATO. Other post-communist countries that joined the EU and NATO in the recent past did so according to the wishes of their citizens. Most Ukrainian people (because of their horrible past experiences with Russian imperialism) don't want to be under Russian rule again or in any union with Russia, and they and the Ukrainian government support Ukraine's close association with the EU and eventual membership of Ukraine in the EU and NATO.

NATO as a defensive military and security alliance is not a threat to Russia armed with a much bigger arsenal of weapons of mass destruction than EU countries have.

Ukraine is the victim of the criminal Russian invasion and Russia is the aggressor.
Russia has annexed about 18% of the Ukrainian territory occupied by Russia, refuses to withdraw Russian troops from Ukraine and continues the war to conquer more Ukrainian territory. Therefore the EU, UK and US governments must provide Ukraine with the necessary sophisticated weapons to destroy and to drive Russian troops out of Ukraine as the only way for Ukraine to get its territory back and to remain a sovereign country. Negotiations with Russia for over 9 years have led to nothing and are senseless, as Russia tries to impose its will on Ukraine through this war. Russian demands are aimed at badly harming Ukraine's interests on vital issues for Ukraine. In fact, Russia demands that Ukraine yield at least Crimea and southeastern regions of Ukraine to Russia and that Ukraine as a European country (out of its own will) not join the EU and NATO in the future (thus become isolated from the EU and NATO), demilitarize (become militarily defenceless against Russian military superiority), with no effective international security guarantees for Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, become a puppet of Russia and then a part of Russia like Belarus has become in practice, and accept Russia's rule over Ukraine. No nation in Ukraine's place would accept any of those outrageous and highly harmful Russian demands for Ukraine.
Lyzko 45 | 9,281
18 Aug 2023 #2
Fact of the matter remains, that Putin's War is merely the natural result of long simmering tensions between both countries ever since the collapse of the Berlin Wall, nearly thirty-five years ago!

Putin, his predecessors as well going back to Tsarist times, have always been gunning for the Ukraine. He's simply using the conflict to pin the usual blame on the Ukrainians instead of admitting to his own expansionist fantasies.
OP Michael2
18 Aug 2023 #3
Merged:

The importance of Ukraine for EU's economy and security



European Union officials must be convinced of the importance of Ukraine for the EU to strengthen the EU against the dangers from Russian neo-imperialism. EU officials must be urged to start the process of bringing Ukraine into the EU and later NATO. Ukraine is the largest European country, with significant natural and mineral resources, and is of strategic significance for the EU in terms of security. It would be very unreasonable and unwise for the EU to lose Ukraine and other East European countries (Moldova, Georgia, Belarus) to Russia which would strengthen Russia as an empire and only create more rivalry and threat/danger to the EU from Russia. The EU must not wait until Russia succeeds in domination over those countries. Further delay in bringing those countries into the EU and later NATO may be very costly to the EU in the near future if Russian neo-imperialism succeeds in its policies.

Ukraine historically belongs to European civilisation, but Russia does not, as Russia as a successor to the despotic Asian Mongolian Empire has always attempted to subdue and dominate European countries (Poland, Finland, Sweden, the Baltic countries, etc). Since 2014 Russia has been an open enemy of the EU, never a real long-lasting ally or even a reliable decent partner. Russia with its kleptocracy and its policies of blackmail with its oil and gas supply to EU countries is a real threat to the EU economically, politically as Russia with its terrorist methods and interference into internal affairs of other countries promotes instability, unrest and chaos worldwide, militarily (with the largest arsenal of weapons of mass destruction) and in terms of security because Russia has expansionist domineering ambitions not only in Eastern Europe, but also globally. Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Belarus as European peaceful countries (unlike Russia) must belong to the EU and NATO to make the EU stronger and more prosperous so that they have a brighter future and do not get under oppressive Russian rule again which this time may be fatal to these nations.
Barney 15 | 1,586
18 Aug 2023 #4
Russia with its terrorist methods and interference into internal affairs of other countries promotes instability, unrest and chaos worldwide

A bit like Ukraine's invasion of Iraq that created chaos, instability and unrest and the creation of ISIS.
jon357 74 | 21,842
19 Aug 2023 #5
chaos, instability and unrest

That was all there before anyone ever invaded.

Ba'ath took power by killing men, women and children in particularly vile ways and were getting worse not better.
Lyzko 45 | 9,281
19 Aug 2023 #6
Russia sees herself as Eurasian, neither European nor Asian.
Therein lies the root of the problem. They never quite made up their minds:-)
Novichok 5 | 7,767
19 Aug 2023 #7
The true cause is the US - a country addicted to wars and playing the world's dumbest cop. On a personal level, it's that idiotic messiah complex in combination with "one brave man saves the world".

The rest are just useful idiots responding to crap like "freedom and democracy" and "proud to die for his country". It would be hard to get a man to enlist to help improve the bottom line on the tax returns of what we call the Military Industrial Complex.
Velund 1 | 578
19 Aug 2023 #8
What Dmitry Medvedev said today about perspectives.....

The West's defeat in Ukraine is inevitable.

And let their leaders, who have forgotten about their own citizens, shout at each other that they will support the fragments of Ukraine with arms and money for as long as necessary. They will train soldiers for the Kiev meatpacking plant, they will rebuild the ruins of the dying economy of the Bandera regime. They will maintain insane sanctions against Russia. It won't help. Why not?

thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Past-News.php/2023/08/20/the-west-s-defeat-in
jon357 74 | 21,842
19 Aug 2023 #9
What Dmitry Medvedev

If he said it after about 9 am he'd have said it in a slurred voice.

He's one guy who has consistently got it wrong.
Novichok 5 | 7,767
19 Aug 2023 #10
And we will achieve it.

Russia has a problem...Paulina disagrees.

Any counter-offensive will be exhausted. They will honor the dead, lick their wounds.

...and quickly forget this episode as they did so many before...
Ironside 53 | 12,461
19 Aug 2023 #11
That is pointless. I mean everyone pick their side and cheer it on.
Don't tell me you REALY want to get to the bottum of it all?
Novichok 5 | 7,767
20 Aug 2023 #12
Hey, Iron, did you read Velund's post?
amiga500 4 | 1,516
20 Aug 2023 #13
If he said it after about 9 am he'd have said it in a slurred voice.

Nothing wrong with a bottle of vodka in the morning. (for russians that is.)
Paulina 16 | 4,208
20 Aug 2023 #14
What Dmitry Medvedev said today about perspectives.....

Well, if he believes what he's saying then it means he's truly insane and evil.

RuSSia has to be stopped. They're clearly f*cked up and the new Nazis of sorts.
Novichok 5 | 7,767
20 Aug 2023 #15
Well, if he believes what he's saying then it means he's truly insane and evil.

You will have the right to say it when you personally guarantee Russia's security. In the meantime, check if everything is OK in the kitchen...
jon357 74 | 21,842
20 Aug 2023 #16
he's truly insane and evil.

There is little doubt about that.

new Nazis of sorts.

This time at least, I hope the free world has learnt from the past and will stop them. The world doesn't need r*SSia and they have shown time and time again that as a country they do much more harm than good.
Lyzko 45 | 9,281
21 Aug 2023 #17
Let's eschew analogies between Putin and Hitler, shall we. While there are indeed superficial similarities between the two leaders, there's enough to divide them so as to make serious comparisons inappropriate in a serious discussion.

First off, Hitler was once more an ideologue, essentially concerned more with the sole extermination of a people than with the mere acquisition of historical territory. Secondly, the Nazis found a frighteningly broad, unquestioning support for their policies, whereas support for Putin is so divided at home, that it threatens to collapse under the weight of domestic infighting! True, there was plenty of same within the Nazi Party, the key difference there was that the Nazi ideology was never questioned. At stake rather, was who should lead the country. In the case of Vladimir Putin, many at home question whether his war is even justified.

For the above reasons, among many, comparisons between Putin's army and the Nazis are intenable.
Paulina 16 | 4,208
21 Aug 2023 #18
Hitler was once more an ideologue, essentially concerned more with the sole extermination of a people than with the mere acquisition of historical territory.

What does it matter what he once was if he ended up being very concerned with acquisition of historical and non-historical territory anyway.

whereas support for Putin is so divided at home, that it threatens to collapse under the weight of domestic infighting!

It doesn't look like it at all. According to polls Putin has "a frighteningly broad, unquestioning support for his policies" among the RuSSian society.

For the above reasons, among many, comparisons between Putin's army and the Nazis are intenable.

First of all, noone claims that everything is the same, but some parallels are clearly there.
Secondly, the comparisons are made not only between "Putin's army and the Nazis", but also concerning propaganda, the society, etc.
Lyzko 45 | 9,281
21 Aug 2023 #19
It's a question of intrinsic motivation, Paulina. Putin doesn't seek the extermination of the Ukrainian people, fellow Christians and Slavs after all, but rather the acquisition aka re-annexation of Ukraine, much as he has attempted with Crimea. Putin's simply a war-mongering megalomaniac, not a Hitler, Idi Amin or Pol Pot!

Surface parallels at best.
Also, polls can be both elusive and deceptive. I frankly think that support for Putin is stronger among his "friends" abroad such as Orban of Hungary, than at home.

Interesting to see what Lukaszenko thinks about the Ukraine War now.
Paulina 16 | 4,208
21 Aug 2023 #20
It's a question of intrinsic motivation, Paulina. Putin doesn't seek the extermination of the Ukrainian people

We don't know what Putin seeks, Lyzko, or what he would do if he could. And it's not like Hitler announced to everybody that mass extermination of 6 milion Jews will take place. The Nazis made the decision to "resolve the Jewish question" only in Autumn 1941, so 1 year after the war started.

Now, I'm not saying that Putin is as bad as Hitler and that today's RuSSians are as bad as Nazis were. But I do see very worrying parallels and signs and we simply don't know what's going on in Putin's head and what RuSSians may still do. The war isn't over yet...
Novichok 5 | 7,767
22 Aug 2023 #21
much as he has attempted with Crimea.

People in Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk self-identify as Russians. This gives them the right to join Russia. They asked and Russia agreed.
Lyzko 45 | 9,281
22 Aug 2023 #22
Russians by nationality though!
@Paulina,
It would behoove Putin to even remotely consider such an unspeakable act of extirpating fellow Slavs, be they Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Chechnians, White Russians etc. including those of mixed Slavic extraction.

I repeat, Putin is simply a war-mongering bully, a grandstanding megalomaniac with expansionist fantasies who sooner or later will be put back in his place, at the very back of the word stage.
Novichok 5 | 7,767
23 Aug 2023 #23
with expansionist fantasies

1. How do you know what his fantasies are?
2. How far does he want to expand?
Alien 18 | 4,772
23 Aug 2023 #24
People in Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk self-identify as Russians. This gives them the right to join Russia.

Do you think that if all Poles during communism identified themselves as Americans (like you), Americans would make Poland the 52nd state?
Novichok 5 | 7,767
23 Aug 2023 #25
The subject here is the war in Ukraine.
Alien 18 | 4,772
23 Aug 2023 #26
The subject here

Analogies are allowed and obvious in this case.
Novichok 5 | 7,767
23 Aug 2023 #27
Analogies are fine. Getting personal is not.
Alien 18 | 4,772
23 Aug 2023 #28
Getting personal is not.

Sorry.😔
Lyzko 45 | 9,281
23 Aug 2023 #29
Far enough, Rich!
The Ukraine and Crimea are certainly bad enough, don't you think?
Or should he hold out for more??
Novichok 5 | 7,767
23 Aug 2023 #30
Far enough, Rich!

I googled "far enough" and couldn't find it on the map.
Crimea self-identified as Russian so it is part of Russia now. If you have any evidence that Crimeans do not self-identify as Russian, please post it.


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