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Russian Views On Poland and Vice Versa


pawian
27 Mar 2023 #121
9. No reason to hate them

Despite that Paradise on earth, you prefered to leave for the US. It seems you made a huge mistake, especially that you hate the US for what it is. :):):)
Miloslaw
27 Mar 2023 #122
Today, try to say at any US university that men cannot get pregnant

What In the hell does that have to do with Russian oppression of Poles?
What you describe is an American problem that Americans need to deal wirh.
Novichok
27 Mar 2023 #123
What In the hell does that have to do with Russian oppression of Poles?

I was never oppressed. Me and my big mouth...
1984 is well and alive at Western universities. In "communist" Poland we were not brainwashed because even our teachers were not.

Western "educators" would be very happy at the Chinese re-education camps.
pawian
28 Mar 2023 #124
I was never oppressed. Me and my big mouth...

Your mouth is only big here, in the PF. In communist times you weren`t oppressed coz you were a little mouse which stayed in its hole and didn`t dare to squeak in fear of becoming a target for communist oppression. Communists allowed you to leave the country in 1965, it means they considered you their man. Ha!
Miloslaw
28 Mar 2023 #125
I was never oppressed

Total BS.
Are you trying to say that Russia treated you better than America?
If so, why run to America?
I don't believe a word of your BS.
Just say what you think man!
Instead of playing games!
You think America is going down the pan with all this woke and leftist ideology.
I can't disagree with you.
And you also think that some Russian attitudes are better than the American ones.
Can't disagree with you on that either.I
But there is one big difference that we will disagree on.
I prefer democracy to dictatorship.
OP Bobko
4 Apr 2023 #126
During the times of the Cold War, it was a popular discussion amongst classicists and foreign policy boffins to discuss the analogies between the standoff preceding the Peloponnesian War, and that existing then between the US and USSR.

In this analogy, the United States was Athens - immensely prosperous, a hub for the arts and sciences, controlling a large network of alliances, and relying on its powerful fleet to project power far afield. The Soviet Union was Sparta - totalitarian, backwards, and utterly militaristic (relying on brute land power to project influence).

We know that in the end Sparta defeated Athens, but only for both of them to later recede into history as mere bit players during the rise of the Roman Empire.

And what were the Romans known for? They weren't as creative or culturally influential as the Greeks, but they knew a few things. One of those things was an agnostic approach to importing foreign innovations, if they proved useful to the Roman state. Remind you of anyone?

What would Poland's analogue be, in this classical hypothetical?
pawian
4 Apr 2023 #127
Sparta, Romans and the Cold War??? You are being carried away a little.... :):):)

Ok, tell us your amasing secret about Poland`s analogue whatever it means. :):):)
OP Bobko
4 Apr 2023 #128
tell us your amasing secret about Poland`s analogue

I don't know, I'd like to hear it from a Pole. It could be Macedon, it could be Epirus, Thebes, or Corinth, or something farther out like the Illyrians or Thracians.
pawian
4 Apr 2023 #129
Macedon, Epirus, Thebes, or Corinth,Illyrians or Thracians.

None of those. We are Sarmatians.

I'd like to hear it from a Pole

Then you must wait for Kania who likes to discuss such riddles with you. While I don`t have time to look for analogies between Poles, Spartans, Romans and Corinthians in the Cold or Hot War times.
OP Bobko
15 May 2023 #130
lying

Where does this come from? I see it a lot, no doubt, but still am curious where does it come from? Is this just a modern phenomenon, because of Communism, or were Russians known as liars before as well? In Russia the negative stereotype we have about ourselves is that we are lazy and stupid (Ivanushka on the oven & the two perpetual problems of Russia - idiots and roads). Nothing about lying. Something more Tatar/Chinese to that.
GefreiterKania
15 May 2023 #131
Where does this come from?

This very forum, for example. Remember how your buddy Velund lied through his teeth that the Russian forces along Ukrainian borders are there merely on exercise. He said this until the very day of invasion! Now, he's not a complete and utter idiot to have believed that, so he must have been lying.

Also, since the beginning of this war your media and government officials spat out such a river of lies that it would shock even the most cunning Tatar.

Is this just a modern phenomenon, because of Communism, or were Russians known as liars before as well?

Hmm... fairly recent, I'd say. Before that it was as you say - naive and lazy were the main stereotypes but there was always this hint of a "cunning Asian" behind it. There is a good PhD there somewhere, for some diligent and unbiased researcher.
OP Bobko
15 May 2023 #132
since the beginning of this war your media and government officials spat out such a river of lies that it would shock even the most cunning Tatar.

In their defense, they had seen it work before. In Crimea earlier, in Georgia - sort of. When America has a trillion satellites in the sky, and listens to your every conversation - saying one thing, and doing another is probably the only way to maintain some element of surprise.

It's also just a remnant of Soviet practice, where lying to the West was kosher because they were kafirs. The assumption was that we were being lied to on a constant basis, so we should simply reply in kind.

Also, Russia has had very bad recent experience with an "open kimono" policy towards information. The Yeltsin era was probably a high point for "transparency", and it was a non stop sh!t show. Generals on TV calling Chechnya a disastrous mistake, and saying we should surrender immediately. Competing factions daily pouring out tons of excrement on each other in the form of "kompromat", which often came in the form of videos of politicians having sex. People in the Kremlin must have understood at some point that there is in fact low demand from the population for such daily seppuku by the government, and started sending out a message people wanted to hear. The problem may be that at some point they started believing their own stories.
GefreiterKania
15 May 2023 #133
I'll give you a fairly recent example of what I mean...

Soviet 1st Belarussian Front HQ in winter 1945:

"Guys, come to us for the talks; there's a lot of things we need to discuss. The German defeat is coming soon and we have to consult you on some very important matters. Oh, come on now - you have our full warrant of safety. It's not like we're going to imprison you, transport to Moscow and stage a fake trial against you there!"

Polish Secret State and underground army leaders:

"Just some peaceful talks? Warrant of safety? OK. Very well then - let's go talk to the Russians."

*rolls eyes*

The problem may be that at some point they started believing their own stories.

Yip. The most disastrous schoolboy mistake - start believing your own propaganda.
OP Bobko
15 May 2023 #134
@GefreiterKania

I wouldn't categorize that story under "lying". It's what you do when you are planning to kill many people. Are Germans liars because they told the Jews they were going to be deloused? Does Mossad tells ex-Nazis in Argentina that they are employees of the Jewish state's intelligence service tasked with killing Nazis? That's different.

To me lying is saying "we did not kill thousands of Poles in the forest one night - the Germans did". Lying is saying - Turks did not kill hundred of thousands of Armenians as state policy - it was all a sad misunderstanding. Lying is saying that you invaded Cuba and the Philippines after Spain staged an unprovoked attack on an American ship moored in Havana harbor, or that you invaded Iraq because Saddam was trying to procure uranium in Africa.

Lying by states is second nature to what they are in their essence. I don't think Russians as a people are liars, however. We actually have a very specific feeling towards truth.
GefreiterKania
15 May 2023 #135
Yes, you've got a point there.

However, I don't buy this Russian "specific feeling towards truth". Since the advent of communism your people tolerated, or even embraced, such an amount of pure lies on every level that they had to have some propensity towards it before.
OP Bobko
15 May 2023 #136
Since the advent of communism your people tolerated, or even embraced, such an amount of pure lies on every level that they had to have some propensity towards it before.

Not a fair charge.

The Russian relationship with government has always been a different one to that shown by Westerners. If not the enemy, then the government is certainly not a friend. Popular aphorisms about the "Good Tsar" notwithstanding, Russians have always seen themselves in opposition to the "government", but stalwartly behind the "motherland".

Therefore it's not about swallowing their lies, but rather disdainfully ignoring them. If it shows something, then not our own propensity for lies but our passivity. They say what they want, and we pretend to be fooled - and everyone goes about their business.

An American libertarian preparing for the apocalypse in his bunker by stashing ammunition and canned food, cannot compete with an average Russian in his hate towards his government. In Russia the government and the people live on separate planets.
Novichok
15 May 2023 #137
In Russia the government and the people live on separate planets.

That's why I object to lumping the US swamp with US people. Not even close. The worst offenders are Polish morons who tell me that I "hate America".
GefreiterKania
15 May 2023 #138
Russians have always seen themselves in opposition to the "government", but stalwartly behind the "motherland". (...) In Russia the government and the people live on separate planets.

Hmm... when I hear all those babushkas on YouTube, explaining to me how great Putin is, I have my doubts. But very well, let's assume - just for the sake of argument - that what you say is accurate and that there is indeed this deep rift between Russian people and their government. Wouldn't such stark dichotomy eventually lead to... I don't know... some sort of collective schizophrenia? I mean, people would eventually either go mad or start believing those lies, embracing them as their own worldview.

Can you honestly say that it isn't anything like what's happening in Russia?
OP Bobko
15 May 2023 #139
@Novichok

The "people" are never at fault. It's why Reagan would address the "Russian people", or Obama the "good people of Iran". Stalin famously said, "Hitlers come and go, but the German people remain".

However, PF is proof that the "people" are certainly at fault. Alternatively, it is proof that people are fearful animals, easily directed by familiar tools of manipulation.
OP Bobko
15 May 2023 #140
when I hear all those babushkas on YouTube, explaining to me how great Putin is, I have my doubts.

That's foolish. Those babushkas are drones - I know, my babushka was the same.

I cannot explain my babushka's psychology in one post on PF, but the most important thing you have to understand about her is that she was a child of the war generation. She grew up in poverty, sexual abuse, hunger, and constant PTSD. She told me she cried when Stalin died, even though he killed 90%+ of her family. Up until she died, she would tell me that one day they will come back. When I asked her who the "they" are, she could never quite accurately articulate.

Fear is the operative word, when you talk about these babushkas. I wouldn't believe even 1% of what they say, because they are not equipped to even understand the question. They think in categories of: Yeltsin - bad, Putin - good. Pension was low, now it's high. Hospital was under-equipped, now it has a Siemens MRI machine. And so on, and so forth. It's not worth explaining to people like my babushka that another talented Russian man might do as good a job at taking care of her, and that she does not have to sell her soul to United Russia for these benefits.

Now tell me, this is different in any other country in Eastern Europe?
GefreiterKania
15 May 2023 #141
She told me she cried when Stalin died, even though he killed 90%+ of her family.

What? Maybe she meant tears of joy?

Now tell me, this is different in any other country in Eastern Europe?

In Eastern Europe, probably not. You could even find some examples of this in Central Europe - like with PiS voters in Poland - "they steal but at least they give money for children, give us the 13th and 14th pension, build a lot of infrastructure etc." - without analysing things like taxes, inflation, currency value etc. This I can understand. But still, PiS voter base is something like about 30% (and dwindling). What is the popular support for Putin and United Russia?

Also, PiS supporters will defend their party and believe any lie they hear from KaczyƄski - they don't "disdainfully ignore" the lies but rather mindlessly swallow them like young pelicans. Luckily they are a minority (30% of those who go to vote is more like 20% of all voters - 1/5th).
OP Bobko
15 May 2023 #142
What is the popular support for Putin and United Russia?

Attaching a graphic below, which shows support levels for parties. United Russia in first position with 30%+ (historically terrible for them, they used to be in the 60-70s a decade ago), and communists in traditional second with about 15%.

Putin himself is probably somewhere in the 60-70s now. He's been very careful to disassociate himself from United Russia. He hung that albatross on Medvedev's neck, who is head of the party now. Putin is officially non-party since his last stint in office.



jon357
15 May 2023 #143
support levels

Stats originating in r*SSia are invariably fictitious.
OP Bobko
15 May 2023 #144
Lol. Ok - so what's your problem with these stats published by Deutsche Welle (notice logo at bottom left)?

You think United Russia is below 30% or above it? I'm not even sure based on your post. Even in Russia, we need accurate polls for our Kremlin overlords to know which way the wind is blowing.
AntV
15 May 2023 #145
published by Deutsche Welle (notice logo at bottom left)?

Hahaha. I was going to say the same thing.

I thought DW was banished from Russia.
OP Bobko
15 May 2023 #146
I thought DW was banished from Russia

This is 2021 still
GefreiterKania
15 May 2023 #147
Attaching a graphic below

Thank you. I thought the numbers would be higher. Interesting.
AntV
15 May 2023 #148
This is 2021 still

Ah-ha...I see.

I thought the numbers would be higher. Interesting.

I thought they'd be higher, also. Goes to show just how clueless we are to things, especially from afar. :{
Atch
1 Jun 2023 #149
these stats published by Deutsche Welle (notice logo at bottom left)?

Who compiled the stats? What context were they published in? Link to the article in which they featured?
Ironside
2 Jun 2023 #150
@Bobko
Why bother? It is not about views or interpersonal relations.


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