Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw

It's true.The left are the new fascists who are trying to stifle free speech from anyone they disagree with.
It's ridiculous and dangerous.Especially in universities.
If people have what you think are wrong or abhorrent views surely you would want to debate with them to at least show others that they are wrong.

You go to university to broaden your mind,not to narrow it.

yes I agree.
For example the feminist Germaine Greer being 'no platformed' at several universities for bearing the opinion that "transsexual" women are in fact not real women, but men without dicks. Shock Horror @ the truth but apparently university students are so delicate that they cannot handle such outre opinions and need to rush to a 'safe space' where evil feminists like GG will not be allowed...

You couldn't make it up.

There are certainly plenty of those employed in universities.


This is not a positive step forward; universities are meant to challenge opinions and develop critical thinking in their students.

The Czarny Piatek rally by the way, was attended by women from across the mainstream political spectrum.

We agree on that. When I graduated undergrad in 2010 there was a hint of this, but for the most part college was a place where you learned how to think critically and evaluate arguments in a critical way. That's since been replaced with arguments from emotion which are wildly subjective and not based in reality. Add to that the prevalence of shutting down opposition opinions with bombastic labels and sometimes violence.

To stay on topic. Where can I find the political affiliation and break down of those in attendance?

You can't, because it is yet another statement Jon pulled out of his behind, with no evidence to back it up.

That were true though then murder of a pregnant woman wouldn't count as a double homicide in most countries.

"and need to rush to a 'safe space"


Really? you should be more progressive jon, what if a student is homosexual, how can he/she avoid micro aggression if not by using safe space?

lol

At the chromosonal level, she's completely right (no operation changes chromosones) But modern third wave feminism is all about retreat into traditional feminine pursuits like regulating social interactions (intersecionality, microagressions and the like) and maintaining that women are inscrutable emotional creatures whose communication requires careful interpretation...

maf those two sentences were not really connected....

yeah they are, Greer is right and modern feminists are wrong for ideological reasons.

Thank you. BTW, I was thinking a few cultural marxists on this forum might be paid from similar such organizations. I see critical theory in use here.

I think many people these days base their views on having freedom of choice. It is hard to understand that not everyone wants change. Personally I think that the majority of Polish people are happy with how the law currently stands. I think the government is making a huge mistake in trying to restrict the law further.


In that case the government should let the people have their say in a referendum, just as Ireland is doing. By trying to restrict laws that are already far tighter than in other countries, the government is proving that they are in fact behaving in a very anti-democratic way.

Abortion has been industrialized. It's a business and businesses need customers one way or the other. An abortion business should want as much re-creational sex and promiscuity as possible in order to develop a potential client base. Also, ease of access and convenience, like McDonalds.

Listen to a short 3.5 minute clip of some employees and directors at Planned Parenthood explain how they were given abortion quota targets to meet and the bonuses awarded for meeting or exceeding them. Nothing personal, it's just business.

youtu.be/mkxUAR3a_Jc

I remember a line from Planned Parenthood poster child "comedian" sarah silverman: "we're thinking about having an abortion, but we're having a tough time conceiving".

Not in Poland it's not. You can only get abortion here under strict circumstances. Most people in Poland think the current law is OK - only the hard line church support the governments proposal.

Planned Parenthood has nothing to do with this proposed law.

It would a great debate about where the freedom of choice came in...
However the issue is highly politicized with heavy ideology involved as well. hence it is hard to talk shop here.
Basically human life has rights since conception. Extending human rights from the beginning to the end on side and primitive yapping about women's rights to kill on the other side.


Once more, gov ( I don't support this gov) is all for status quo due to ratings, and all stuff like that, there same Parliamentary members form the ruling party that are all for it but there is no consensus inside the party at all. Bosses are against it.

What they have done and it wasn't gov but Parliament was put the bill to be proceed inside the house. It was written and lobbed for by an independent group of the citizens who gathered more than million signatures.

Those proceedings are just all there is.
If the ruling party bosses wanted this bill to pass it would has happened many moons ago.
It strange it would call it anti-democratic. In fact its bizarre. Are you inferring that right to kill children should be handed to women and no question asked as their 'natural' prerogative as their democratic free choice?

I hope so.

Who knows what goes on behind closed doors. Poland is about 36th on 2017's Transparency International corruption index, better than some in the region but not great. NGO's lever themselves into place within foreign countries and proceed to exert influence within. You and I are not invited to the policy table to discuss the fate of the country's laws. No average citizen is.

"Armed with millions of US dollars to fund the killing of unborn children overseas, they are now concentrating their anti-life propaganda on Poland."
spuc-director.blogspot.ca/2009/03/ippf-patronizes-polish-women-with-its.html

The link to their supposed statement does not work - a 404. Might have disappeared or might be more of your fake news

The ones affiliated under Soros frequently get raided and harassed by Poland's internal security.... PL need to step it up since there's still many within our borders that are still operating even though they're clearly working against the interests of Poland's society and government.

The government are trying to further restrict the abortion law regardless of what the people think. How is that in any way a democratic decision? It is the reason why people were out in force on the march.


I don't see it like that. What you are saying is that the government should have the right to prevent women from having a termination even if the foetus has no chance of life. I don't see anything wrong with Poland having a referendum as Ireland is doing. To be honest if that were the case, I think that the vote would go the way of keeping the laws as they are at the moment. I think some women would like abortion to be legal under any circumstances, but I think this is a small minority. Are you saing that Ireland is wrong then in allowing the people to have a choice?

What surprises me is that on just about every debate we've had, you are all in favour of freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom to bear arms, but not when it comes to the reproductive rights of women. You can't have it all ways.

@mods, please can you delete/amend my previous post.

As was the case back in 2016 and as we know, that proposal was rejected due to the strength of feeling and large country-wide protests. Interestingly enough at the same time in 2016, a proposal to soften the abortion law had garnered the necessary number of signatures too, yet was immediately rejected by the government. Democracy at its finest eh Iron? ;)

The government is not doing such a thing. Its Parliament that goes through the motions not to offend powerful fraction within the party.
By the way it was not a notion of that fraction to start the whole thing but as I say again and again (you seem to not believe me on this) an independent movement pro-life that gathered over a million signatures of Poles who support the change in the law.

If you know something about Poland you realize that it is not an easy task to find such a support for anything. It means that the change is backed by a large chunk of the Polish population.

It means that your perception of what is actually transpiring in this case doesn't reflect the reality. It is not the gov that wants to introduce that law. It clearly doesn't for some mundane political reasons, like the issue is ideologically and politically controversial, can bring a lot of bad publicity abroad and so on.

They don't need it and they don't want it. PiS's bosses are clearly against that bill but as I have said they cannot state it clearly due to others factors. Few of them I have already mentioned.

Your narrative about a patriarchal conservative gov that wants to force unpopular law on the people is basically out of synch with reality.
We can also debate if you whish whether or not such a law would curtain so called freedom of choice but on a philosophical plane. I the realm of politics what I said above should suffice.

I hope this time I made myself understandable.

end of part one


I don't think the issue has anything to do with freedom of choice.
Look, progress in science, in scientific tools and medical knowledge has extended our understanding of a human body including DNA. Consequences of that knowledge hasn't been fully comprehended as yet.

I mean DNA suggest that there is a living human being there right out from the movement of conception. It hasn't fully developed as yet but that doesn't mean that all DNA information is not there. All the data all the material that makes you and me are already there, just not fully developed.

For anyone who is not ideologically biased ( and can comprehend it) it is clear that we have a human being there.
If so, it has its consequences. We cannot discriminate against human being due to some details or technicalities. I 'am sure you wouldn't want to discriminate against people basing it on their skin color, their low IQ, their mental or physical deficiencies, their status and so on.

Why discriminate against a human being just because he or she wasn't born yet?
(Also it is not so safe and painless to have an 'abortion' as they paint it. It is an invasive medical procedure that can have a very adverse consequences to a woman health.)

To sum it up.
Women have a freedom of choice as I see it. They can prevent conception and have plenty of means to do so. If they fail - well they don't get to terminate a human being just because it might suit them to do so.

It might suit me to terminate some or other human but if I was to carry it through it would be called a murder.

I'm willing to bet soros and co are helping fund and organize these protests. Anything that destroys the population of white europeans is a worthy cause for soros and all his open society affiliates.

In the name of equality, shouldnt the decision to abort or keep a child be just as much the man's as the womans? Afterall half the DNA is his and hes the one who's going to wind up paying child support should the woman keep the kid.

Also if a fetus is just a cluster of cells, than why is killing a pregnant woman considered a double homicide?

I doubt they will ban abortion in Poland.
Abortion in Poland is legal just in these three limited cases. And none of these involves 'I'll abort my child because I forgot to take the pill/use a condom'.

No one forces a woman to abort her child in any of these cases, but it should be her decision.
That was what the 2016 protests were about. Both women and men protested. Some say it was temat zastępczy to avoid discussing ceta as no government would dare to totally ban abortion in Poland.

As for the last protests, there were against Kaja Godek's proposition. It was about abortion concerning foetuses with irreparable damage. Lots of people forget that it's not only about children with the Down Syndrome. There are far more serious issues and parents of such children get far too little help from the state. They often need to give up their jobs to take care of their children 24/7 and they get mere 1500 zł or so per month which often isn't enough even to buy medicines.

It's clear that you don't want to see it anyways. You're improving though. You are looking at links that I post which you said you wouldn't. Thanks.

Why not contact the fellow, John Smeaton, at that link and call him a liar. I don't know him but maybe he'll schedule an argument with you if that is what you are looking for.

This is his email> johnsmeaton at spuc.org.uk

Well, according to statics it is mainly about children with down syndrome and oft doctors only suspect those children might have it. That opening in the law is used mainly for eugenics. Hence that issue had been raised.


No it shouldn't.

IS I basically agree with you that life is created at the end moment of conception. This is why I oppose abortion on healthy foetuses.

On those that are not healthy then what is your solution for caring for those children ? Is it the states responsibility or the parents (for sure it is not the church who steps up fort hat) On a practical level then support for these children and their families is virtually non existent. I don't know if it's true because I saw it on my facebook feed but I read the govt even wants to cut refunding of drugs for premature children. The proposed law does not include any extra support for parents.

@Ironside
So if your wife/girlfriend or daughter is raped and gets pregnant, you insist that she should carry the rapist's baby for nine months and let her remember him every single day. Then, of course, you raise the kid and are lucky if the child takes after the mother.

And when the mother's life is at risk, you let her take the risk. Her life doesn't matter. Martyrs are cool. You will visit their grave every November. If she orphans her children, you will bring them along.

So yes. If it is the woman that has to cope with the trauma or risking her life. It is HER decision. Not an Internet troll's who either knows nothing about compassion or has not had a woman for ages.

And no decision is right in the above cases as far as I am concerned. As I'm generally against abortion.
As for disabled children, they're born every day. But it is their parents who know how much care they require. And they should get more support.

People are not statistics.

Read my post #141. I do know this to be the case, yet I notice you didn't address the fact that the other petition also had the necessary number of signatures but was immediately thrown out before even getting to the committee stage.


Really? This is what Kaczyński said after the government were forced to back down after the protests in 2016:

Jarosław Kaczyński, indicated that the government would continue to seek to tighten the law. He said: "We will strive to ensure that even in pregnancies which are very difficult, when a child is sure to die, strongly deformed, women end up giving birth so that the child can be baptised, buried, and have a name."

Does that not sound as if tightening the law is exactly what PiS wants? What appears to be the case is that the RCC want this law tightened and has put pressure on politicians to do so.. A recent FT article said that the Polish Episcopate appealed to parliamentarians to consider the ban, and that the general public heard bishops giving instructions to politicians, and these instructions were carried out . The interference from the RCC, coupled with political submission is what has led to these protests. So my narrative about a ' patriarchal conservative gov', as you put it, is not exactly without basis.

The orders may be coming from above but the government is going along with it.


They will not have freedom of choice if the law is tightened. Foetal abnormality accounts for 95% of legal abortions in Poland, so if the law is enacted, you may as well as say there is an almost total ban on legal abortion.

As for preventing conception. you make it sound as if it is all the responsibility of the woman, and the man has little to do with whole proceedings!! Contraception, whichever means is used, is not 100% reliable. So what you are saying is that if a condom splits and a woman finds herself pregnant and unfortunately carrying a severely disabled foetus, then she should have the baby,despite the fact that the child may have a terrible quality of life, and that her life will be forever changed. Of course, the man is completely free to walk away from the whole situation if that's what he wants, so the lifetime care and considerable financial cost is to be left to the woman. Under those circumstances Iron, damn right that the woman gets to have her say.

Would you be prepared to give up your life to look after a severely disabled child? To know that your child may be in constant pain and there is nothing you can do for him/her? Because that's what it amounts to. It's easy to talk the talk.

nah, it sound as exactly what I have said it sounds, vie for support of the chunk of the Polish society that wants it.


Yes, listen to the press, lol. Even if that was a case, so what? I mean politicians are listing to those to whom they want to listen to. Out of sudden if they want to listen to a RCC bishops or some such it is a scandal that supposed to compromise their integrity somehow. Since when RRC clergy are on par with gangsters and criminals?

^^So my narrative about a ' patriarchal conservative gov', as you put it, is not exactly without basis.^^
Well, they are not neo-Marxist PC SJW. 40 years ago you could call them centrists if not left. Using those labels is just meaningless.

""They will not have freedom of choice if the law is tightened."""
Abortion used as a means of anticonception is abhorrent to everything that is human and decent. Whereas 99% of those 95% serve as an eugenic law,killing children with down syndrome.


Well, it sounds that way because your argument revolves around women and THEIR "rights", so I'm only sticking to the topic as your arguments define it.

Well, it is rather obvious that in this context it is a woman that bears full and long term consequences. Hence should use her better judgment BEFORE conception not after it. Anyhow, how we can trust her if she got impregnated by some worthless punk who did a runner?

It is obvious that such a woman has not sense whatsoever.

"Because that's what it amounts to. It's easy to talk the talk."
It immaterial because you only talk about a highly theoretical possibility that is not on the table. We are talking about reality where millions of unborn children are being killed daily. How many of those would fit your description a once in 100 million in 1000?

Reality on the ground is such that people are using abrasion as a means of anticonception or eugenic or as it take place in China to kill unborn girls.

Also there is at play pharmaceutical lobby that uses baby body parts in their production.