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Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia


1jola 14 | 1,883    
10 Apr 2010  #61
It seems to me that there was a culture of erring on the side of completing the mission vs. safety, what do you think?

You site one example and call it a policy? To me, it does at the moment look like there was pressure to land not to delay the comemorations. Perhaps a deadly mistake, we'll see after the investigation. I have ignored so many "Safety First" in the AF that didn't result in death but it could have. At NASA it was even worse. It was never the policy to ignore the safety rules, but they were, are, and will be ignored because of the "mission".

Safety first is a good slogan, which boils down to going always by the book. Not in the real world though.

Why was he given clearance to land when there was such a low ceiling and no ILS? The pilot of an approaching aircraft is in charge of clearing himself to land? What do you think?
MareGaea 29 | 2,763    
10 Apr 2010  #62
Hm, just read that the aeroplane they flew in wasn't the safest of all sorts: since 1973 there have been 30 crashes with this type of Toepolev, costing 3000 lives. There had been trouble with this plane before, even after it received a check-up at the end of last year. Apparently in Haiti after the earthquake there it wouldn't come off the ground. An eyewitness in Smolensk told reporters that he heard the plane, but that the engines didn't sound right. He couldn't even SEE the aeroplane as the fog was too thick.

I think mechanical failure and the weather conditions are to blame for this terrible accident.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Stu 12 | 523    
10 Apr 2010  #63
Everybody ...

Is it true the pilot was told several times he was below the glidepath ... ?!

Well, it'll show on both the tapes of ATC as well as the CVR.
Wroclaw 45 | 5,403    
10 Apr 2010  #64
Is it true the pilot was told several times he was below the glidepath ... ?!

this seems to be the case
Wlazlo - | 4    
10 Apr 2010  #65
I always saw him as a role model, may our president rest in peace.
convex 20 | 3,984    
10 Apr 2010  #66
You site one example and call it a policy?

Policy was a bad way to put it, you're right. Maybe culture would be a better term.

Looking at the weather, apparently they've had heavy fog every morning for a while now. This was one of those "we have to be there" flights, leaving the previous evening might have been a better option. At least that would have given an option. They knew about this in advance, it wasn't an emergency flight. Seems like a tragic end to a badly planned flight :(

Why was he given clearance to land when there was such a low ceiling and no ILS? The pilot of an approaching aircraft is in charge of clearing himself to land? What do you think?

There's no tower at UUBS. Moscow ATC advised diverting to UMMS or UUEE.
MareGaea 29 | 2,763    
10 Apr 2010  #67
Fact: until the contents of the black box is revealed, we simply DO NOT know what happened. Period.

>^..^<

M-G (makes no sense to theorize about pssbl reasons now - give yourself a chance to grieve, that is most important today)
delphiandomine 87 | 16,884    
10 Apr 2010  #68
I think mechanical failure and the weather conditions are to blame for this terrible accident.

There's something curious not being reported well, but being mentioned (by the BBC among others) - seemingly the plane couldn't be reached for 16 minutes before crashing. Odd.
Bratan - | 2    
10 Apr 2010  #69
<<Have you seen the latest news? I wonder if KGB shoot down his plane. Maybe Putin is preparing himself to the invasion of Poland.>>

Where is your brain, man? What the stupid things are you saying here? Use your logic, man!

This case is absolutely clear - pilots made wrong decision. They knew about bad weather
conditions and they been offered to go to another airports, but they decided to land their aircraft in such conditions....

We grieve on all prematurely gone...
JustThinkAbout - | 2    
10 Apr 2010  #70
k. I am out of here.

Just want to say, that this is the big tragedy for Polish and Russian people. And we should stay together to get over it. We have to work together to get over it and we will get over it.

Let's think about the future, preferably the bright future for our nations. I sure we can do it if we are gonna stop throwing the dirt to each other side...
Crow 146 | 7,594    
10 Apr 2010  #71
We are truly shocked here in Russia. in fact this is a big shame for us to know that it was a Russian-made plain and it happened on Russian territory...

i believe you. Absolutely

tragic situation for both, for Poland and for Russia.
russiangirl    
10 Apr 2010  #72
Why in the world would russians kill the polish president in RUSSIA??? Think about it, it wouldent do Russia any good to do it in there own country..
MareGaea 29 | 2,763    
10 Apr 2010  #73
The Russian girl is right. If the Russians wanted to kill Kaczynski then they would have had plenty of opportunity to do so a long time ago.

>^..^<

M-G (understands the need for a reason, well, sometimes an accident is reason enough, I guess)
Alfa-dog    
10 Apr 2010  #74
C'mon guys..My condolences to all the Polish nation but blaming Russians for the "murder" is a BS. Did KGB generated fog, moved glide path 4 TIMES and finally forced the pilot's arm to

reduce the thrust ?

The airplane is ol' good jet. Its no worser then Boeings or Airbuses of his era.
Sire Brenshar 1 | 61    
10 Apr 2010  #75
My prayers to our President, Lech Kaczynski, his wife, and all the other people of this crash.

I can hardly believe some of the comments posted on this topic, I mean, the victims bodies are probably still warm and some of you have the nerve to make it all a joke?

Anyways, I find it hard to believe that someone did this dreadfull incident, but at the same time, it does seem rather coincident...
I don't really think Russia is responsible, and the only real reason I could imagine them having a hand in this is if they wanted to show a warning, about "past relations" and who's in charge...

But I'm much rather inclined to believe it could be somebody else who wanted to put a stop between the our (PL and Russ) warming relations, and to put a wedge between it.

Just a few words from Polski Radio.

"Many of Poland's political and military elite appear to have lost their lives in the accident, including Poland’s the last president in exile Ryszard Kaczorowski, former defence minister Jerzy Szmajdzinski, head of the Presidential Chancellery Wladyslaw Stasiak, presidential spokesman Pawel Wypych, Secretary of State Mariusz Handzlik, head of the Law and Justice party in parliament Przemyslaw Gosiewski, MP Zbigniew Wassermann and Bishop Tadeusz PÅ‚oski."

"Komorowski takes over as head of state"

Truly horrible, these people helped form Poland's spirit...
wildrover 98 | 4,457    
10 Apr 2010  #76
They were attempting to land at an airport that did not have the latest in landing technology , and they were trying to do it in bad weather...looks very much like an accident to me....!

The aircraft they were flying in was not the best machine around , but nor was it an old deathtrap , this aircraft has a safety record thats comparable with many others of its type and age....

There is no doubt , that the President of Poland should be travelling around in the most modern and safe aircraft there is , and this particular aircraft should have been replaced with something better , but maybe it would not have made any difference to this accident..?

One story i have heard suggests that the pilot was told repeatedly that he was below the glide path , in other words , he was trying to land on the runway before he reached the runway , and as a result hit some trees some distance from the runway...

The pilot may have been under some pressure not to screw up the presidents schedule by diverting to another safer airport , but in all cases involving the safety of the aircraft , the pilot has the last say on this , no matter who is on board....

Unless they come up with some kind of technical failure , which i think is unlikely in this case , then its down to human error made in bad weather conditions....
thebear45 1 | 67    
10 Apr 2010  #77
RIP from albania

russians did this to poles :(
MrBubbles 10 | 614    
10 Apr 2010  #78
Good thing that the plane came around 4 times for him.

Good point. How did the jews arrange that?
8-3=1 (Romania)    
10 Apr 2010  #79
We in Romania, have our long time traditions. One of them says that the week between Easter Sunday (4th of April this year for both Orthodox and Catholics) and Thomas Sunday (this year on 11th of April) is the Enlightened Week. All skies and heavens are opened, the light of God lies upon all of us, the unhappy souls who went to Hell have now a glimpse of what Heaven is. Whoever is born during this week will be a very lucky person. Whoever dies during the Enlightened Week goes straight to Heaven, regardless of what sins they had.

Be strong brothers, your elite went straight to Heaven and they sit next to God! They will guard upon you- for the might and glory of the Polish people! Be strong- Romania is with you, now and ever!
convex 20 | 3,984    
10 Apr 2010  #80
Good point. How did the jews arrange that?

They're crafty like that apparently
time means 5 | 1,314    
10 Apr 2010  #81
your elite went straight to Heaven and they sit next to God

What about the common man/woman on the plane or is the seat at the side of god or even heaven reserved for the elite?
Sire Brenshar 1 | 61    
10 Apr 2010  #82
Read his post more carefully.

Whoever dies during the Enlightened Week goes straight to Heaven, regardless of what sins they had.

Obviously everyone gets to sit beside him, their titles from Earth mean nothing to him if they are received like any other unnamed person.

Whats the point of even having posting that...
Spaceman77 3 | 58    
10 Apr 2010  #83
God bless their soul....
polkamaniac 1 | 482    
10 Apr 2010  #84
you're digging too deep because of the prevoius history between Poland and Russia.The Last information that has come out is that the pilots were landing too low and too fast.They were told to abort and did not reply.The plane hit the top of a tree line and crashed.!!!. Note---"Although air traffic controllers generally have the final say in whether it's safe for a plane to land, they can leave the decision to the pilot's discretion. There are reports that the pilot made several attempts at a landing before the plane struck some trees on its approach and crashed."

"In the Polish government, the president is commander in chief of the country's armed forces, but the domestic duties of the role are mainly symbolic. Kaczynski, 60, had been president since December 2005".The duties of running the country are still with the Prime Minister---who is Donald Tusk
convex 20 | 3,984    
10 Apr 2010  #85
Why would they put all of their leaders on one plane? A plane known to be dangerous as well.

Well, they didn't for one. The only thing that makes this odd compared to normal VVIP flights was the number of senators and members of the Sejm that were on board.

There are a few pictures of Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Gen Meyers all 35k ft over the ground.

you hear what sakashvili says? "SOmething real EVIL has happened today, REALLY evil"

No one cares what Saakashvili says anymore. This will feed conspiracy theories for a while, won't start a war.
time means 5 | 1,314    
10 Apr 2010  #86
Read his post more carefully.

I did. I was trying to make the point that each lost soul on that plane was just as important as any other. Some may be more news worthy that's all.
Wroclaw Boy    
10 Apr 2010  #87
Fact: until the contents of the black box is revealed, we simply DO NOT know what happened. Period.

If its a planned assassintation the news will be biased, this one will be shrowded in mystery for years to come.

The whole thing stinks IMO.
convex 20 | 3,984    
10 Apr 2010  #88
The whole thing stinks IMO.

It stinks about the same things that you rant about. Terrible planning, horrible execution, people just accepting things that they should stand up to...
SouthMancPolak - | 104    
10 Apr 2010  #89
Typical. I might have guessed that the usual onlin "armchair flight investigators" would blame "the Jew" or "Russia for this. So I'm just going to ignore them and say that my thoughts go out to all those that died and their families. I didn't exactly share Kaczynski's politics, but he hardly deserved to die like this, and neither did anyone else in that plane. R.I.P.
Torq 25 | 2,269    
10 Apr 2010  #90
I might have guessed that the usual onlin "armchair flight investigators" would blame "the Jew"

I got a feeling the Jews were involved in this.

For all those who missed it - from the American Jewish Committee:

Suddenly and painfully, we have lost a dear and cherished friend.

he was steadfastly devoted to writing a new chapter in the relationship between Poland
and the Jewish people. He welcomed the renewal of Jewish life in Poland (...) and was
deeply committed to forging a strategic link between Poland and Israel.

ajc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=28182 89&ct=8162199&notoc=1



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