Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia

The Russian government is corrupt as hell. I doubt they had anything to do with this. Enriching themselves off of local issues, absolutely...Just look at Luk....


ATC didn't provide primary information. If the pilot was relying on the controller during that approach, he was already at fault. We'll see what the report says.


What would you suggest? Maybe you could give an example of an EU/NATO plane crashing and them taking over the investigation? Montreal treaty... Same happened with the Korean Air 747....

Convex, can you clear something up that I'm not sure about?

When the plane reached 100m, what was the pilot supposed to do?

Isn't it all clear that Kaczynski pushed the pilot away and was landing by himself, so It's all his fault ?

In those conditions he was supposed to abandon the landing and divert elsewhere....

Who said anything about Kaczynski? As far as anyone knows, he's blameless, apart from the moral responsibility of making such a trip in the first place. His aide may be partially to blame for putting pressure on the pilots, however. Of course - perhaps you think that he's guilty?


That's what I thought, but I read something somewhere that confused me.

An investigation run by NATO HQ with aviation experts from all the major member states ? I don't believe Russians wouldn't agree If Polish government demanded that immediately after the crash as It would look suspicious.


Really ? I thought there was a Russian one and a Polish one, which besically is meaningless as they still don't have access to many crucial evidences and others get with months of delay.

He should have never reached 100m in a tu154 according to the POH.


Not at all, Kaczynski had nothing to do with..well, directly. He did bitch out the pilot in Georgia for deciding to take the safe route (incredibly brave pilot that was to stand up to the leader of the nation).


The Polish side has the right to involve whoever they wanted.

So, you're saying that the Polish investigators aren't good enough? Very patriotic of you.

Incidentally, Poles don't particularly trust NATO either.


What crucial evidence? I'm not aware of Poland not having access to any crucial evidence. Certainly, the military prosecutors haven't said anything.


Hmm, wasn't the celing at 120m?

I only hope the investigation points out that the pilot only had a few seconds to react once they went below 120m.

But the Tusk side left it all to the Russians and didn't even try to ask for any international investigation.


What ?

The crash may not have been planned by the Russian government at the highest level. It could have been simply an air controller error that the Russian government does not want to admit to.

MediaWatch:
The accident could have easily been the result of air controller error of giving the wrong landing coordinates to the pilot. Even landing coordinates just slightly off would result in a crash.


So what is the function of the aircontroller when a plane is preparing to land?

There have been reports that actually the aircontroller said it was OK for the plane to land which were referenced in prior links.

Even the incomplete pilot transcript shows that the pilot at the end was trying to abort the landing but it was too late.

Could have been, we'll see in the report. I'm on the side of pilot error (being a pilot, it pains me, but I could see it).


It depends, and that was the main argument. BUT, in any case the captain has full control. I landed last week in pretty much the same conditions (except here in Wroclaw). 100m ceilings(ish). No input at all from the controller.

No, the Tusk side left it to the professionals in Poland. Like patriots, they trusted the military prosecutors to do the job. Unless you're suggesting that Polish professionals aren't good enough?


Haven't you heard all the desperation from Poland for America to commit to the defence of Poland?


So what was the pilot doing going below 120m? How can the ATC controller be responsible for the pilot's actions?


In this case? Really, nothing. They can assist, but the Captain is in control. And ATC are not responsible for enforcing the regulations under which the flight is conducted - in this case, ATC were not responsible for enforcing the 120m ceiling.

Indeed, as I understand it - even in civilian aviation, ATC is merely advisory.


Where? The transcript (which, don't forget, was released by the top Polish prosecutors) shows clearly that they were told that they couldn't land.


Incomplete? According to who?

The problem is MediaWatch, you're just not producing anything that stands up to scrutiny.

I find it amusing that you don't blame the Russians for not closing the airport, even though you could quite easily do so.

What kind of plane do you fly?

A little tiny TB10, a Pitts S2B, a Cessna T303, and I'm type rated for a C500 and 525...and hoody hoo, next February I'll be able to fly you too and fro in a 737.

I spend most of time in the TB10.

...no deice, no turbocharger...I take IFR pretty seriously

The transcript of the Polish recorders were imcomplete according to other Polish pilots who question the gaps in the Russian TRANSCRIPT of the recordings and not the actual recordings. Gee I wonder why the Russian government doesn't want to give back the actual black boxes? Hmmmm

Tusk is too weak of a president to demand that these important black boxes be given back. If a Russian plane with Putin or Medeved crashed in Poland, don't you think Russia would be demanding to have the black boxes immediately and not just accept TRANSCRIPTS of what the black boxes supposedly said??

Polish Plane crash investigation under Suspicion:

Point one. Russia hasn't turned over the plane's black boxes to Polish investigators. This may well follow an odd, post-crash agreement between the two countries, whereby Russia provides Poland with recordings of the black boxes and Poland controls the recordings' release (typical Russian-Polish agreement). But it also hoists a red flag over the entire investigative process. After all, "who" might have done "what" to a black box in a Russian recording studio?

Meanwhile, writing in the Polish newspaper Nasz Dziennik, some Polish pilots have challenged the authenticity of the recordings. Among other aeronautical reasons, they cited the length of the transcript, which appears to exceed the 30-minute capacity of a black box tape. The pilots also noted the transcript is missing the signature of the sole Polish expert involved. Further, Polish Radio RMF has reported that one of the Russian-made black-box recordings contains a 16-second gap.

townhall.com/columnists/DianaWest/2010/08/13/polish_plane_crash _investigation_under_suspicion/page/2

Delph I think my viewpoint can take any kind of scrutiny. It only might not be able to with stand the scrutiny of people who have agendas like yourself.

And yes the Russians should have closed the Smolensk airport if it was in poor condition or if there were imcompetent air controllers, but who are the Poles to tell the Russians what they can do in their own country?

What other Polish pilots?

The problem with your theory here is that Poland opened and examined her own military black box. Russia had no idea what this box was or what it did. Either the Polish box agreed with the transcripts, or you're accusing the top military prosecutors of lying. It's your choice. But if you're a Polish patriot, then you should respect the Polish military.

The fact that you call Tusk "President" tells me all I need to know about your knowledge of Poland - sweet **** all.

Incidentally, the black boxes were opened and copied in the presence of top Polish investigators. Poland has the copies. For obvious reasons, Poland isn't going to release the actual recordings out of respect for the dead pilots.

Poland's black box would give the game away instantly if this was the case. We'll soon find out - the 60 day deadline isn't far away.

Oh dear. Quoting Nasz Dziennik is always a bad idea - it's a sensationalist rag that openly lies to sell newspapers. But anyway - who are these pilots? Are they unnamed? Surprise.

As for the capacity of the tape - 30 minutes is the civilian standard. Don't you think that the Polish military, on a plane that carries the President/Prime Minister - might, just might, have a black box that can record more than 30 minutes? It's not exactly hard to implement!

As for the 16 second gap - we'll see what the Polish investigators have to say :) Unless of course - you believe that they would lie about an accident which killed their commander in chief.

Sadly, you've posted so much nonsense (portable ILS, anyone?) about this topic that your viewpoint is meaningless. I don't have an agenda - but you clearly do, as you seem obsessed with the idea of Russians killing Poles. On the other hand, I just want to know what happened - using fact and reason.

Don't you realise that the Polish Air Force is notoriously reckless?

Actually, Kaczynski's previous behaviour suggests that if they had closed Smolensk-North, there would have been a major diplomatic incident as a result. They certainly should have, and I expect that the Polish investigators will make a point of bringing this up.

You say "Russia had no idea what this box was". How would you know what Russia knows and doesn't know? I would venture and say a country like Russia would know pretty much what most equipment on an airplane is. Especially airplanes that are Russian made. Its silly to say "Russia had no idea what the box was".

Also the Russian government had plenty of time to tamper with any black boxes so even if they were opened in the presence of Polish investigators it means nothing.

Also how many black boxes do you think there were? Just one?

Also maybe other Polish pilots don't want to identify themselves for fear of being attacked by people with agendas like yourself. Anytime a newspaper reports something contrary to your viewpoint on this investigation you attack it.

Tusk is too weak of a president to demand that these important black boxes be given back. If a Russian plane with Putin or Medeved crashed in Poland, don't you think Russia would be demanding to have the black boxes immediately and not just accept TRANSCRIPTS of what the black boxes supposedly said??

It was my mistake that I called Tusk "president". I always referred to him as Prime Minister before. Its good to know you never accidentally misprint anything LOL

Poland can release whatever it wants to release.

It just would be nice if Poland was given back all the black boxes from Russia. Certainly if the situation was reversed, Russia would be demanding for the actual black boxes and nothing less. Wouldn't you agree?

The opening of the boxes in front of Polish officials means nothing when they were kept by ex-KGB personnel. Yeah we all know how honest they are and how they would never tamper or open a box without detection. LOL

The piece of equipment that we're talking about was a specifically Polish piece of equipment. It has been said by the Polish investigators that the piece of equipment was sent to Poland to be opened, decoded and analysed. Sorry, but again - you're accusing the Polish investigators of lying. It's a dangerous game for a so called Polish-Patriot.

And you think that Polish investigators wouldn't notice any tampering when the results didn't collaborate with the Polish black box? So - now you're accusing the Polish investigators of not only lying, but also being inept.


At least 3. We also don't know what exactly was installed in that plane - it's entirely possible that they had a system similar to AF447 that was transmitting data "back to base".


No, they don't want to say anything because they know that what's being reported by Nasz Dziennik and the like are just sensationalist lies to sell newspapers. I know you're not in Poland and don't understand a damn thing about this country - but the stuff that you're quoting is well known to make up nonsense for political purposes.


But what does Poland want them for? The investigators haven't asked for them - in fact, no-one connected with the investigation has asked for them. There's no need - they've already been examined by a Polish investigator. Where they are at the minute is neither here nor there - they're largely irrelevant. I don't expect you to understand how these things work, but please, use some common sense. If the Polish investigation is happy, I'm happy.


Then you're accusing the Polish investigation of being useless, as well as lying. Your choice, patriot.

What will you do when the Polish investigation finds that Russia did nothing wrong? Are you going to go against the Polish military, patriot?

He does, but you? Look, a Scottish 'English teacher' just out of school with two years in the country like you is just not a person to understand much about this country. You seem a little obssessed with dispensing your opinions based on leftist news sources though. You are like a tourist who went to Kenya for two weeks and now is the expert on Kenya...in his neighborhood back home.

You are able to say idiotic things like this about the original cockpit voice recorder which the Polish side has not received yet and it looks like MAK is not going to release it soon. We received a digital copy so far. A digital copy.

Seeing as a particular Polish 'patriot' who posts here signed up to murder members of the Polish military when ordered to do so (and to murder any other Pole his Yankee masters wanted dead), you can't really be too surprised that other Polish patriots are willing to go against those very same people now.

When is evidence in an investigation turned over to the owners? Who from the Polish investigation team has requested the physical CVR and FDR?

Tell me - how do you know that the cockpit voice recorder is analogue and not digital? I've read almost every single statement made by the Polish and Russian authorities - and I haven't found anything on the matter.

Sorry, but the only idiot here is you, as per usual :) Stick to your scaremongering Gazeta Polska stories and I'll stick to the facts which the Polish military talk about.

At the end of the day - you're a traitor, and we should never trust Polish traitors.


Still wondering about this too - who actually wants this back, apart from one political faction not connected at all with the investigation?

BREAKING NEWS. The Russian media has just reported that Polish Gremlins were responsible for one of the most devastating political plane crashes ever. The Gremlins which were responsible for removing all bodies and luggage from the crash site are also responsible for assassination of the film maker who filmed the crash shortly after.

What looks like the Gremlins devastating work it is said that they switched of the TAWS landing system and confused the pilot by speaking Russian to him thus forcing him to land at least 400m before the actual runway.

It is said that the Polish Gremlins also told all the world leaders not to come to the funeral of the Polish leaders or they will be destroyed by the great Icelandic volcano and they will rot in hell licking of the volcano ash for eternity.

When asked, the Russians said that the Gremlins are very effective in covering their tracks. The crazy, mad Pravda media says “IT’S NOT US IT’S THEM YOU KOW WHO”………….?

Jesus, I should have guessed that you'd come up with this.

For the last time - can you show me any credible source which has evidence of the film maker being assassinated? You can't.


Uh, there was no obligation for a military controller to speak English. The TAWS system was also working up until impact, so what are you babbling about?

As per usual - know nothings scream the loudest.

Ah yes...the guy who was supposed to have been bumped off in Kiev...that the Kiev cops i spoke to knew nothing about...the guy who later turned up alive and well...

Now Delph that's a very good question. Could they be inept?? It could be a case of Polish investigator ineptness and not lying.

They are human after all.

Would regular Polish investigators be able to detect the sneaky work of former KGB high level Russian officials? It would be basically Polish investigator wits vs Russian KGB wits.

I don't know Delph, I think its possible that the Polish investigators may not know what to look for as far as detecting Russian KGB like foul play.

Its possible these Polish investigators could make mistakes and dare I say be inept. At least when dealing with the Russian goverment, home of the ex-KGB.

Actually I'm surprised that of ALL people, YOU Delph, are NOW defending Polish people from charges of being inept.

How do we know these Polish investigators are not RECKLESS??

I mean afterall you just said the other day the Polish air force is known to be RECKLESS.

You have been calling Poles in Poland for months now, STUPID, DUMB, RECKLESS, THICKHEADED etc etc BUT NOW all of a sudden you want us to believe that THESE Polish investigators are all competent, smart and brilliant. LOL Give me a break.

Forget about what I think, using YOUR logic, I would think there's a good chance maybe these Polish investigators are not competent enough to do a good job in investigating this. Or at the very least they are not capable to keep up with the KGB sneaky tactics of the Russian government.

Of all people Delph, I would think YOU would have doubts about the competency of the Polish investigators. You know they are POLISH!!! The same people who you for months have ridiculed for being RECKLESS, THICKHEADED, DUMB, STUPID, etc etc.

Also there are just too many strange occurences surrounding this whole Plane Crash. From the video of the plane crash and many other peculiar things. But hey I guess they are all coincidences LOL

There are just too many strange things happening around this Polish crash and its aftermath investigation.

townhall.com/columnists/DianaWest/2010/08/13/polish_plane_crash_investigation_under_suspicion/page/full/

Well, you're directly accusing the top military prosecutors in Poland of being inept. It's your call - but these people are highly experienced, they've got experience within NATO and generally - I'd trust them to be absolutely thorough.


Because these are the top military prosecutors from a fairly large NATO member, and the same NATO member is very close to America military-wise. It's your call, but I'm surprised that a Polish patriot would dare to call the military "inept".


I trust them. If you don't, you're not a patriot. End of story.

True Polish patriots don't question their military. And they especially don't question some of the top guys within the military structure in the Republic of Poland. These people are highly trained, they no doubt have received training from America/Germany/UK and they know what they're looking for.

Don't you think that maybe, they're working alongside other NATO members?


We've already debunked the nonsense posted in that link.

I find it incredible that you, a so-called Polish patriot is willing to call the Polish military "inept" and "reckless".

After all, from Webster -


merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriot

So, make your mind up - are you a Polish patriot, or are you a dumb Polack?

Well,well. what can I say. If we find out that it's a bullshit Polish report on the mater of the plane crash and NATO say's OK, then we think coraption is blits.

English?

That's what they said about the Polish Pilot who has been accused of "Pilot error". He was HIGHLY trained and experienced.

He was a First class MILITARY pilot. He was the LAST person to ever make a "pilot error'. His credentials were top notch. He was an ELITE MILITARY pilot who would be the last person to be pressured to make a bad landing decision.

He has a top education (He graduated with honors) and honorable military air force background. His integrity was beyond raproach.

Too bad you have no patriotism towards one of the highest Polish military pilots there ever was. Master Pilot Arkadiusz Protasiuk

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkadiusz_Protasiuk

?[/quote]MediaWatch:
There are just too many strange things happening around this Polish crash and its aftermath investigation.

We've already debunked the nonsense posted in that link.

No you didn't.

I find it incredible that you, a so-called Polish patriot is willing to call the Polish military "inept" and "reckless".


So a highly respected MILITARY Polish pilot can make an error but Polish investigators can not?? Oh I see!! LOL

Well as I have told you before my first patriotism is to the United States since I am a Polish American. But if I was a Polish patriot by your definition, I would not be so quick to believe the "Pilot error" repeated big lie by Russia of a highly decorated and respected Polish pilot like Master Pilot Arkadiusz Protasiuk. WHERE is your Polish patriotism towards him?? After going on saying how respectable the Polish military is and how Polish patriots should trust them no matter what, you for some reason don't trust the integrity of this great Polish pilot who was the LAST person to make a "pilot error".

Nothing epitomizes the greatness of the Polish military and Polish patriotism then there top notch military pilots, which goes back to their great battles over Britain. But for some reason you crap on this poor Polish pilot who had impeccable credentials. Where is your Polish patriotism towards him?? Or does that fit into your agenda????

Why is your patriotism towards the Polish military SELECTIVE????

Oh wait, I'm talking to a Retard Russkie masquerading as a Polish citizen LOL No wonder.