Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia

Just a bit of info on the crew

- (captain) kpt. pil. Arkadiusz PROTASIUK - total time: 3528h (on Tu-154M - 2937h)
- (first officer) mjr pil. Robert GRZYWNA - total time: 1939h (on Tu-154M - 506h)
- (navigator) por. pil. Artur ZIĘTEK - total time: 1069h (on Tu-154M - 59h, as navigator)
- (flight engineer) chor. Andrzej MICHALAK - total time 330h

RIP

Kaczynski forced the pilot to land. Kaczynski, in this way, killed all the peopple on board.
The young generation is far from regarding him as a hero.
After 70 years, he was the second one to kill the men from the top of Polish society.

Leszek
studentstostudents@yahoo

Oh, please. The pilot was well aware that he'll probably get a medal, like the last pilot who went against Kaczynski's order, if he diverts. Passangers can rant and rave all they want, but the final resposibility is with the pilot, and he will not try to land unless he thinks he can.

One good thing is going to come out of this: Russia is going to get serious about investing in their SBAS GPS.

Polska9e04

Polska9e04,

we don't like our government more than you do, but let's be objective. Here is the transcript of the recent meeting of joint Russian-Polish investigation commission, with several Russian and Polish officials reporting the status of the investigation and how exactly it is conducted (post it into google):

axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_59364.shtml

My sympathy to all Polish people.

ok, no equipment failure, still decoding the data recorders. I didn't see when they're expecting to be done.

Yeah. Maybe you will look at some last December video from Smolensk - there will be snow, and that will be one more Russian lie about weather conditions. ;)

In a video fragments taken shortly after crash (fragments of plane still burning) I can see fog, and visibility is comparable to those 400m that was stated.

And, in addition, there was whole bunch of polish reporters that land shortly before on a Yak... They been there and should know for sure what weather been there right after their own landing and in time of planned TU landing.

But I don't think you will take anything into account - looks like you live in some parallel world.

What plane is this camera showing?
Do you see red markings?


Visibility was 400 meters. More than enough to see power lines. The boys are locals, they could have known where the power lines are. You can tell where the lines are also because you know where the power line towers/poles are.

Do we know know for a fact that the picture in the camera is the boys' camera? They never mention anything about the camera. Neither do the interviewers. Is the plane shown the very plane that crashed? Can you see red markings? Or is it a flick of another plane. Perhaps taken days before?

Also, fog density is not always uniform and in fact it is often thicker at ground level. Looking up you may see blue skies, while looking forward you may see little to nothing. I drive through for at times. In hilly areas there will be patches of fog and patches of clear air. Sometimes I have to slow down to a crawl because the fog is very thick but the sun and the skies are clearly visible. On occasion I will see no fog on eye level but looking up... lotsa fog. Or would you call that low ceiling?

From the plane the picture may look completely different. The fog has no background light (the Sun) as it does when you look upwards. Hence the fog density fro above will apear higher.


Not really. Jet fuel and contents of the plane (synthetic materials) don't give out bright smoke. The smoke should be dark. The foggy background is not. Also notice the sun setting during the interview with the boys. The angle of the Sun at this point causes it to be behind the thickest possible layer of fog (horizontal view) and yet you can clearly see the Sun.

Take a look at the same interview starting at 0:08.
youtube.com/watch?v=8OytAQFCkFs
The view shows where the plane came from, not where it crashed. That is shown later. Are the boys and the interviewers standing in the epicenter of the crash and fog appears to be around them? A few hours later after the crews arrived and cordoned off the area? There seems to be little wind and it blows from the Northerly direction (look at the smoke). The 0:08 in the flick I linked to shows Eastern, Norther and Western part of the scene. The fog, not smoke is everywhere. If the Wind is blowing from the North then there should be no fog/smoke to the right of the main scene, and hardly any in the Eastern part of the scene. And yet the backg roung looks smoggy? Would you suggest that KGB glued the smoke to the Northern part of the scene? Or perhaps they are blowing it from a machine in co-operation with The Hollywood?

I don't know whether someone "helped" the plane crash and neither do you. Your theory based on a youtube flick is very far fetched and in parts clearly wrong. You want to find a proof the Russians did it so guess what! You'll find it even in the way the journalist is holding the microphone, or in the way the twigs are moving with the breeze.

Wait and see. For now the only roof you offered is that of your obsession.

From PPrune

Even more interesting, the flight engineer and the navigator were definately lacking in the experience dept. The navigator had 59h in type, and the flt engineer had 300h TT.

I'd be wary of the contents of the 'investigation'. It will be loaded and evidence will be highly selective. The black box findings are not going to be published either which would seem to be an infraction of freedom of information. They may be classed as highly sensitive and all major powers are going doing this line in the name of public safety and security.

You mean they're going to fit the pilot up and pin it all on him? Undoubtedly.

Oh, for sure, Harry. They will apportion the blame solely on him but I have insider info on the pilot that he was top notch and would have acted responsibly and not taken any unnecessary risks without being pushed into them.

Americans would have to be in on it as well. They would have also had to tamper with the radar altimeter, manipulate the charts, and fire up the weather control machine. That, and and manipulate the GPS receivers (or the satellites....).

That's a lot of work for little gain.

This actually is not correct. I already posted this on another discussion here, but for the sake of people who have not seen it:

"The black boxes have been investigated by the joined team of Russian and Polish experts. From Polish side, the following people lead the investigation:

1) Edmund Klich, head of the State Commission for Aviation Accident Investigation under the Ministry of Infrastructure of Poland;
2) Ms Ewa Kopacz, Polish Minister of Healthcare;
3) Mr Krzysztof Parulski, Chief Military Prosecutor of Poland

From the Russian side, Ms. Tatyana Anodina, the head of the CIS Interstate Aviation Committee is investigating the crash. Here is the transcript of her latest report to the joint Polish-Russian commission:

The technical commission of the CIS IAC, which has been registered by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) as an independent regional international organisation, is investigating the circumstances of the crash of the Tu-154 aircraft of the Polish state aviation with the participation of representatives of the Defence Ministry and federal bodies, and in close cooperation with the authorised representatives and a big group of experts from Poland.

All required experts are taking part in the commission's work - pilots, technical experts and specialists on meteorological flight support from research institutes and industrial companies of both countries. A joint working group has been decoding and analysing all flight information since the recorders were opened. Polish experts are providing us with important assistance in identifying the voices of the crew members and decoding other data. We then register everything jointly.

The sides keep the recorders in safes sealed by both sides. The work is conducted in Russian and English. We have full understanding on a professional and on a linguistic level.

The commission will complete its work to determine the trajectory of the plane's flight before the crash on the site today and will start bringing fragments of the aircraft from the site of the crash to a site next to the airport, which is under special surveillance.

We are analyzing all flight and technical documents together with Polish specialists. A tentative examination and analysis of the plane's fragments and decoding of the in-flight data of the recorders has established that the engines were operational until the impact and that there was no fire or explosion on board the plane.

The decoding of the in-flight data of the recorders and its analysis show that there were no failures of on-board equipment. Nevertheless, as the international regulations require, the final conclusions will be made after thorough examination of all the fragments. As it has already been reported, specialists are decoding and analysing all in-flight data of the recorders.

One more additional flight data recorder was found yesterday. The commission decided to meet the Polish side's request on its decoding with the participation of our experts in Poland. An air-check of the airfield's radio-technical facilities is scheduled for April 16.

I would like to emphasise once again that the investigation is being carried out in line with international procedures and regulations set by the ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization), which encompasses 190 states, including Russia and Poland.

Investigators from the European Union and other countries have expressed their willingness to participate in the work of the Technical Commission, should this be deemed necessary. However, these investigators have said that they do not doubt the impartiality and professionalism of either the Commission or Russian experts. IAC (Interstate Aviation Committee) specialists have extensive experience with international investigations, having conducted such investigations in 53 countries, none of which have thus far been contested."

Via Pprune

Interesting USA Today article on the aircraft's avionics. It states that it was equipped with a TAWS, which should have warned the pilot about ground proximity, and helped him avoid the trap of rising ground on the approach..

Device spurs questions in Polish crash - usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-04-13-fog-plane-crash-poland_N.htm

A few quotes of interest:

Quote:
If the safety device was working properly, it would be the first such crash of an aircraft equipped with the system since its introduction in the late 1990s.

Quote:
"I really would like to know what was going on in that flight deck because no matter what kind of pressure other pilots have been under or what kind of weather they encountered, no pilot has ignored a TAWS warning. What is so different about this plane that it would break that chain?" Cox said.

Bill Voss, president of the non-profit Flight Safety Foundation, said that the crash may highlight a weakness in the TAWS. Maps of the U.S. and other developed nations are highly accurate, but gaps exist in the maps for countries such as Russia and in the developing world, Voss said.

Even if the maps weren't accurate, wouldn't the radar altimeter tell TAWS that something was amiss?

TAWS shuts up when landing.

Wouldn't the annunciator still call out height?

There, I should not have butted in... I thought ground prox alerts were inhibited for landing, but I don't know by what interfaces..

The thing about a forest is lurking potential. There were definitely many people in those woods and more needs to be known about them and what they were up to.

... there are multiple copies of this on Youtube. These people could have been up to no good. Why were they there? I always suspect America in such cases. A rogue state (set of states) based on profit and immorality.

Ay, de mi ! All this to say we are upset at the loss of so many.
Why the accident - don't know .
Is Putin a devious and maybe evil plotter ? Of course! But one who wanted a bigger hand in Poland, not conspiracy theories !
Caucacus, I read up on some of the history ( by one of the Dumases ) and quite well understand .
Do I agree with terrorists? No.
Say we find this was an accident: could Russia have avoided it ? Yes!
Should Poland be wary? Of course!
But not trusting Russia won't bring back the dead. And if the plane had crashed elsewhere, where the Russians could never at all be blamed, would you still blame them?

Poland to reveal black box details from crash


themoscowtimes.com/news/article/poland-to-reveal-black-box- details/404034.html

Animation recreating last moments of Tu-154 flight's approach to Smolensk airport:

Detailed wideosymulacja last presidential Tupolev flight that crashed at the airport in Smolensk on Saturday morning. The aircraft landed in poor weather conditions. Killed 96 people , including the presidential couple , ministers , MPs , church dignitaries , generals.

Well... **** happens with TU-154M fuel dropping nozzles, but we had another toy - word "gnat" that is well known for everyone except russians. ;)

For your information - closest thing to your mystic "gnat" is verb " gnat' " (with soft sign at end - гнать).

ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C

" davaj gnat' " may be understood as shortest possible form of something like "let's force them to go out of here". Of course, pretty good idea for a place where accident happened and is not yet investigated by experts, but some unrelated people already come to scene.

If you are not happy with this meaning - it may be understood as "let's distill (probably alcohol)" or "let's drive very quickly" (but this form it is not used often).

In a slang, " gnat' " means - tell some nonsense, like being drunk or under heavy drugs.

Hey people,

I accidentally found this website while searching for a video aftermath of the tragic crash. I found a video on a Turkish news portal. There are 3 men leaving airplane just after the crash. And shoots at them by (I guess) Russian soldiers. It looks quite interesting. I wanted to share it with you. haber7.com/video-galeri.php?cID=4423

Yes, because that newspaper isn't known at all for printing absolute rubbish to increase sales.

It was an accident. I personally thionk the pilot was pressered by flying all thses people. if they would of listen to the Russian tower and landed somewhere else they all would of been alive today.its was human error. why where all of them on the same plane.

it was a tradegy now they laid them to rest and now Poland needs to move on and put rplace those people and continure on with life as a country.

LAGirl - it's possible you are correct however it's much too early to tell. I'll have to defend my aviator brothers here since they cannot defend themselves anymore. We shouldn't be speculating and putting the blame on the pilots until the official investigation is complete. I realize I'm being biased here but you don't kick on someone who's lying on the ground or blame a raped woman for wearing a short skirt... We don't know all the facts and the pilots aren't here to defend themselves. They're innocent until proven guilty.

As for as "if they only listened to the tower" comment. I've flown in the military and in the civilian world and there've been very few occations the tower controller "told us" to go around and each time it was because of a blocked runway. I've never been told by a controller not to land somewhere due to weather. If we're "legal" to go we always give it a try and if we don't see the runway we simply go missed (go-around) and either try again or go somewhere else.

The tower controller is not the person who decides if we should land or not. Heck, from his/her angle the visibility could be zero yet from our angle just 500 meters down the runway we might see the runway just fine. Therefore if the required weather conditions existed (don't know their ops-specs) it'd be absolutely normal and expected of them to give it a try. Why they came this low I'm not sure but will let the professionals determine it for us.

For now, this was a tragedy that hasn't been explained yet but the pilots are still innocent...

Just my biased penny on the subject.

So no official word today at all?
I hope this "you don't kick on someone who's lying on the ground" philosophy does not prevent the government from releasing the recorders' report.

Seremet was on tv last night but he was speaking in code. He really said sth of virtually no significance but TVN are raising the conspiracy tone.

I hope so too as I do want the full truth so others (pilots in my case) can learn from it.

I also hope the public's impatience will not skew the investigation. On this part though I'm much less hopeful.