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Should Poland made an energy bridge deal with Russia?


Ironside 47 | 9,492    
4 Apr 2010  #1
USA doesn't care about Poland. They interest in this country is only about dibs.

So, In EU Germany is ruling and place of Poland in Germans plans is to be a bridge - energy bridge.
Good deal with Russia wouldn't be bad for Poland.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,957    
4 Apr 2010  #2
Having cordial relationships to your neighbours is never a bad idea and being a bridge is a great position to be in actually!
Seanus 15 | 19,716    
4 Apr 2010  #3
Poland already has gas deals with Russia. Isn't this enough? What other deals should be cut? Russia isn't the country with the technology of tomorrow. Poland is doing quite well enough in its efforts.
Nathan 18 | 1,363    
4 Apr 2010  #4
being a bridge is a great position to be in actually!

It isn't bad if the bridge is between two civilized worlds. Otherwise, it will be used by marching soldiers and blown up during retreats.
Seanus 15 | 19,716    
4 Apr 2010  #5
Plus, Russia isn't the most reliable of partners in business. They can play hardball and negotiating with them may be hard under the pacifier, Tusk. Putin's background ensures that he comes more charged to the table and Poland needs sb equally forceful and sure of himself. Otherwise, Poland will always come out second best.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,957    
4 Apr 2010  #6
It isn't bad if the bridge is between two civilized worlds. Otherwise, it will be used by marching soldiers and blown up during retreats.

I think I can safely say there is no fear of a new military clash of Germans and Russians (in Poland nor elsewhere).
Seanus 15 | 19,716    
4 Apr 2010  #7
Absolutely not, BB. Putin and Merkel have their shortcomings but they have forged a strong partnership that Poland should not feel intimidated by. I think the lawyers are on top of those gas pipeline complications that previously hindered developments. Poland can move forward and do further business with Russia. Other than gas, what would that be?
Nathan 18 | 1,363    
4 Apr 2010  #8
I think I can safely say there is no fear of a new military clash of Germans and Russians (in Poland nor elsewhere).

Well, no one can be sure of anything. But the world now seems changing from clashes between countries to cooperation in thwarting bridges in a goal to continue hegemony (and I am not talking of a gas-line). There are new ways to bring someone down Munich style, where there is no cultural, political or ideologic boundaries to those who can participate as long as it satisfies a few in exchange of destroying others. Money ran, run and will run the world - no surprise here - and one is for oneself. What I consider important for any country is not to sell its soul (spirit of democracy and its values) while making a deal. For that one must be independant in decisions and diversified. This is what I suggest and wish for Poland. Cause at the end of the day rats will leave the ship first.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,957    
4 Apr 2010  #9
What scenario exactly do you have in mind Nathan?
Nathan 18 | 1,363    
4 Apr 2010  #10
Well, let's say there is some tight cooperation between certain part of EU and Russia. Both are dependant on each other: one is a natural resource supplier and the others are manufacturing giants who need them. Besides their interests in business, they are politically active and interested in increasing their influence over other countries. Deals are being made in selling warships to Russia, which present direct threat to Baltic and Black sea countries. Gas policy which is intended to be able to economically pressure every country in-between: Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland (EU countries) as well as Ukraine, Belorus' and Moldova. Does Western Europe seem any concerned about its EU partners territorial or economical security? Not a bit. But as soon as there are some issues that may interfere with their money flow, they are ready to trample any sign of discord with their own policies.

Following several cuts to supplies to Ukraine, and further on to Europe on 1 January 2006 and 1 January 2009, as well as foreign policy towards Eastern Europe, it has been noted that the distribution of gas can be used as a political tool from the Russian state through Gazprom, which it owns.

Some transit countries are concerned that a long-term plan of the Kremlin is to attempt to exert political influence on them by threatening their gas supply without affecting supplies to Western Europe

In the report published by the Fridtjof Nansen Institute, Bendik Solum Whist notes that Nord Stream AG was incorporated in Switzerland, "whose strict banking secrecy laws makes the project less transparent than it would have been if based within the EU

In April 2006 RadosÅ‚aw Sikorski, then Poland's defence minister, currently the foreign minister, compared the project to the infamous 1939 Nazi-Soviet Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact

Strangely enough, it bypasses Poland even though some claim there is a blooming friendship between neighbors. When time is right a gas tool will be used against Poland by Germany. No need for military clashes, when you have such a weapon. There seems to be no concern whatsoever in Berlin (why should there be? everyone should think of his own skin, right?) and parity claimed by EU has different colors. When there is necessity to bring some changes to the EU constitution, Germany seems to be disrespectful and threatful to the will of the countries who are equal partners in EU (at least I thought so). I am not here to bash EU. I don't know much to argue cons and contras. But the way everything develops seems to be directed to take away voice out of many in order to leave decisions and pressures in hands of a few.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,957    
4 Apr 2010  #11
Strangely enough, it bypasses Poland even though some claim there is a blooming friendship between neighbors.

First: At that time people got convinced to undertake such a huge challenge like the Nordstream pipeline Poland was governed by the horrible twins who not posed their country as a bridge but rather more like a fence or a wall.

Germans felt it was safer to not to be dependent on Poland regarding our energy (yes it was that bad and yes it needs two to tango)

Second: It is not only Germany which gets another secure means for energy but other european countries as well and even Poland will be provided with Gas through the german parts of the pipeline.

It's just that any future Polish-Russian conflicts don't leave Germany starved of energy.

Third: If some eastern europeans didn't feel they could use the old pipeline as a kind of blackmail and power weapon against German AND Russia they wouldn't protest so much the alternative!

Honestely I blame the Kaczinskies with their extremely annoying and irritating tantrums to always blame Germany AND Russia for Nordstream...

Here an interesting comment:

Political commentator Yelena Shesternina writes:

"Polish voters probably did not mind Kaczynski's consistent criticism of Moscow. It is certainly true that few Poles are ardent admirers of Russia. But even so, the former prime minister clearly overdid it. Suffice to mention the closure of the Russian display at the Auschwitz memorial, or the censure of Aleksander Kwasniewski for his decision to visit Moscow for the 60th Anniversary of Victory over the Nazis, or the demand that the Russian government repent its errors beginning with the division of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in the 18th century to the Soviet invasion.

Kaczynski did more than seek his own interpretation of "historic justice." He consistently torpedoed Russia-EU negotiations. Offended by Russia's ban on its meat imports, Poland alone voted against a strategic partnership between the EU and Russia. It also rejected any compromise on hosting the U.S. missile-defense system. A few days before the elections, Jaroslaw Kaczynski said quite openly that the U.S. 'missile shield' was designed to shoot down Russian missiles, not Iranian ones, thus indicating which nation Warsaw saw as its number one foe.

Kaczynski was no friend of the OSCE either. Warsaw did not even invite that organization's observers to monitor elections under the pretext that Switzerland was voting on the same day. He must have thought that Swiss democracy was in greater need of protection than the Polish model."

When there is necessity to bring some changes to the EU constitution, Germany seems to be disrespectful and threatful to the will of the countries who are equal partners in EU (at least I thought so).

The EU is Germany....for decades Germany build and paid the EU....call it war guilt or whatever but without the cheques from Germany there wouldn't be no EU. Germany (West Germany that is) put for decades the wishes and the well being of the EU before herself, again...billions of german tax payers money got distributes around Europe for 50 years.

Who will be there if Germany needs help...guess what? Nobody...as nobody helped Germany with the huge task of the reunification.
Germany has it's own problems now...and honestly many Germans are losing interest in being the paymaster of the EU, war guilt is waning too...and when everybody comes running to us then at least we want to have more say in it...sue us!
convex 20 | 3,980    
4 Apr 2010  #12
Strangely enough, it bypasses Poland even though some claim there is a blooming friendship between neighbors. When time is right a gas tool will be used against Poland by Germany.

Look on the other side. They could continue the overland round with all the risk that entails, or bring the gas directly to their customers in Western Europe along a pipeline that is 100% under their control. Not only that, but they have the capital to invest in the pipeline today, no more transit fees in the future, only maintenance costs which are already being paid on the overland route.

The Russians will sell gas to anyone willing to pay market prices. If by weapon you mean "no longer sell at 1/3 of market price", then yes, it will probably be used as a weapon.

The EU is Germany....for decades Germany build and paid the EU..

Well...that and Germany never had to worry about paying for strategic defense. That might have saved a bit of cash....
Nathan 18 | 1,363    
4 Apr 2010  #13
Exactly. But what about political conflict between Poland and Germany? It doesn't matter who uses the gas as a tool later, Germany or Russia.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,957    
4 Apr 2010  #14
Well...that and Germany never had to worry about paying for strategic defense. That might have saved a bit of cash....

Being an occupied country for 50 years...there wasn't much choice!

Exactly. But what about political conflict between Poland and Germany?

Well...in that case Nordstream plays no role at all....(other than that you can't starve Germany of energy in purposely blocking the pipeline anymore)
Nathan 18 | 1,363    
4 Apr 2010  #15
"no longer sell at 1/3 of market price",

It transports through our territory and pays the fee which was agreed upon at 20% discount for gas price. Don't think Russians are as stupid to sell gas for 1/3 of a price. There are other inter-governmental agreement, which seemed to work till right after the Orange revolution. Again this issue is murky waters as I don't believe any politician whoever side he represents.

sue us!

Why? All I am saying Poland should not be dependant neither on Russian, nor on German supplies. Who pays - orders the music. And it is Ok. You have a powerful economy

The EU is Germany....for decades Germany build and paid the EU....call it war guilt

I can understand your self-sacrifice:

But initially the Germans will have to dig deeper into their pockets for the expansion. The European Commission has demanded more money for it, more than €37 billion will be pumped into the new countries in the coming years. How can you make that appealing to the taxpayer?
The financing for this expansion round was already decided in Berlin in 1999. We are spending around €15 billion less than was then calculated and will get by with a total of €40 billion until 2006. The new countries will pay €15 billion of that themselves. All in all, the expansion will cost Germany a net total of €2.5 billion in the first three years. On the other hand, Germany will have an enormous trade balance surplus. That's why viewed economically it's a win-win situation. It makes no sense to say that the expansion will lead to an additional burden for the Germans

Germany does what is essential for its security, nobody's else. And this is fine. I once argued about that, but not anymore. Again I am suggesting for Poland to keep diversified and not rely on its neighbors.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,957    
4 Apr 2010  #16
Why? All I am saying Poland should not be dependant neither on Russian, nor on German supplies. Who pays

Just a dream...other than that Poland suddenly finds huge oil resources on it's soil it will be always dependent on other countries for it's energy (like Germany).

Oh and till we find a way to slake our energy thirst with the help of desertec and other renewable energy projects that is...

In the first place, it's a peace project. It creates peace, stability, and safety in the region of Europe that immediately borders Germany

Only as long Germany was able and willing to pay...
Now as Germany hesitated as in the case of Greece you see how "peaceful" Europe became!

The export-oriented German economy profits particularly from this quickly growing market.

Agreed!

It makes no sense to say that the expansion will lead to an additional burden for the Germans.

Didn't you hear the news Nathan? Germany is accused for not importing to much, not spending to much, for saving to much, for exporting to much and hence being the main blame for the european crisis!

And if we want the failed economies to be a bit more like the german economy - oh horror, the mean Nazis are at it again, how dare they!!!

I must admit Germans are losing their enthusiasm quite abit...
Nathan 18 | 1,363    
4 Apr 2010  #17
Didn't you hear the news Nathan? Germany is accused for not importing to much, not spending to much, for saving to much, for exporting to much and hence being the main blame for the european crisis!

I don't watch much, but if somebody says it that is outright wrong. Germany is the engine of Europe and I personally respect anyone or anything that reached heights by fair game like Germany did. Not pump what is given by nature, but produce wealth on its own.

Just a dream...other than that Poland suddenly finds huge oil resources on it's soil it will be always dependent on other countries for it's energy (like Germany).

I said it wrong. I meant "dependant ONLY" on those sources.

Now as Germany hesitated in the case of Greece you see how "peaceful" Europe became!

Yeh. This is what I am trying to say: diversify and be able to stand on your legs without mother's tit.
convex 20 | 3,980    
4 Apr 2010  #19
In Polands interest, who is a more stable partner, Belarus, or Germany?

Being an occupied country for 50 years...there wasn't much choice!

Mutually beneficial... There wasn't a lot of screaming for the US and Brits to take their armor out while 4000 Soviet tanks were sitting next door. US had a nice forward operating country, and Germany didn't have to pump money into strategic defense.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,957    
4 Apr 2010  #20
There wasn't a lot of screaming for the US and Brits to take their armor out while 4000 Soviet tanks were sitting next door. US had a nice forward operating country, and Germany didn't have to pump money into strategic defense.

This "sitting next door" was also Germany! That's what I meant with being occupied and not having much choice...certain geopolitical facts didn't made it possible.
convex 20 | 3,980    
4 Apr 2010  #21
The 4000 tanks would then just be across the river.
Crow 143 | 7,407    
4 Apr 2010  #22
Should Poland made a deal with Russia ?

as soon as possible
Seanus 15 | 19,716    
5 Apr 2010  #23
What kind of deal, Crow? Anything significant would make quite a few Poles angry and even be seen badly by certain factions that are anti-Russian, e.g Chechens.

Russia caused many of its own problems and needed 2 stabs to silence Chechnya. They haven't heard the end of it according to some Chechens.

Poland siding with Russia is fraught with pitfalls.
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,544    
5 Apr 2010  #24
In EU Germany is ruling and place of Poland in Germans plans is to be a bridge

and if sided with Russia... We would be political vassals?

I would say a stronger alliance with neutral or "not so important" countries in Europe would be a lot better. Although the communication would be difficoult
plk123 8 | 4,154    
5 Apr 2010  #25
being a bridge, gives the bridged a reason to come and fix the leak.. ;)
OP Ironside 47 | 9,492    
5 Apr 2010  #26
and if sided with Russia... We would be political vassals?

What are we, now?
SeanBM 35 | 5,809    
5 Apr 2010  #27
USA doesn't care about Poland. They interest in this country is only about dibs.

Why would the U.S. care about Poland being an energy bridge with Russia except for business?

So, In EU Germany is ruling and place of Poland in Germans plans is to be a bridge - energy bridge.
Good deal with Russia wouldn't be bad for Poland.

I dislike the way the E.U. isn't showing a unified front on this issue with Russia.
The Nord Stream line circumventing Poland to Germany shows the E.U's weakness, in my opinion.
Are we a European Union or still stuck in our internal conflicts?
It is my belief that, as a union working in co-operation, we will all benefit more than showing ourselves as every man for himself.
I hope that Poland continues to improve relations with both Germany and Russia.
king polkacanon - | 57    
5 Apr 2010  #28
I don't know the US get mad like crazy every time we try an agreement with Russia.Especially when Greece decided to buy SS-300 missiles instead of patriots and when there was agreement for the gas pipeline Burghas-Alexandroupoli.There was a big reaction of the US,I guess they do the same in Poland.They don't want countries to get along with Russians especially on energy,military issues.
convex 20 | 3,980    
5 Apr 2010  #29
The Nord Stream line circumventing Poland to Germany shows the E.U's weakness, in my opinion.
Are we a European Union or still stuck in our internal conflicts?

Nord Stream circumventing Poland = cheaper gas.
rockbit 1 | 10    
5 Apr 2010  #30
If Poland would develop its huge gas reserves, it would be in a much stronger negotiating position vis-a-vis Gazprom and 'the bear'.


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