Poles say a big YES to our European Union

Au contraire!

I never said that no-one moved to Poland during that 44 year period.

You were the one who remarked that "no-one really wanted to move" as if it were down to individual choice rather than state imposed restrictions.

You obviously need a serious lesson in Polish history because movement in and out of Poland while she was imprisoned behind the Iron Curtain was not akin to being in the Schengen Area today.

That is why I also said that "no-one really could move" but it was due to communist totalitarianism (which you deliberately didn't acknowledge).

And yes few could leave. You gave unsourced numbers that over 250,000 left in the 1950s and another in the 1970s. That's nothing especially when you take into account that Poland's population had grown from 30 million to 39 million during that time.

Now compare that to Polish migration today as well as during the 19th and early 20th century.

Checkmate!

@delphiandomine

That and the Nazis killed over 90% of polish Jewish according to several sources along w gypsies which also added to the homogeneity. But yes you're right then the Berlin wall and communism pretty much limited migration except for from other commie countries. Quite a few Vietnamese moved to poland and are very assimilated. A lot of em own restaurants (or the property which they lease out to a restauranteur) and they do quite well. Apparently though quite a few were involved in the underground marijuana industry in the 90s and 00s. Don't know of that's still true now.

Yes, though many in that community prefer not to assimilate, which is of course their choice. People who've come from many other places have opened up restaurants since freedom of movement ended borders, just as Polish citizens have opened restaurants and cafes elsewhere in our EU.

The opportunities it has brought are excellent.

@TheOther

The tiny amount of middle easterners and africans that come to reside in poland tend to be wordly educated and well heeled. They're coming to work, invest, study, etc. Also its up to immigration authorities and such to decide whether to give people residency, work visas, etc. Those types of people in not worried about. I am more concerned with those who refuse to assimilate and just live in no go zones with their soccer team of kids and collecting welfare. The husband may work at some law wage job but would be unable to provide for hisnhuge family without tax payer dollars paying fornhisnwelfsfe and a bunch of other things. Furthermore oftentimes in areas like this unemployment is far higher in no for/sez's than other areas even poor ones. Many of them simply don't want to work or assimilate and the wives almost always are stay st home housewives per islamic tradition. Yet they repay us by committing terror attacks. A lot of these residents know who the radicals are in their neighborhood but won't tell the cops anything. Poland doesn't want to deal with it. We took in over million Ukrainians in just a span of 1 or 2 years and lo and behold no terror attacks... Hmm wonder why? No attacks either from the belarussians Georgians Christians from the middle East west Africans Indians etc. Even the pakis who come to poland are coming to work and jump start their career. But at least in migrants tend to be vetted unlike a policy of come one come all like Germany has and now has to deal with utter craziness that should ve never happened.

Also the few migrants that did come to poland and czechy over half left for Germany anyway.

Poland simply isn't an attractive choice for migrants2 and poles mainly due to their history of being off the map for almost 2 centuries followed by devastation during ww2 followed by communism for some 50 years. We just now are getting on our feet and we don't want terror attacks or states of emergency or enormous sums of tax dollars going to migrants and other problems that western European nations are experiencing. We don't want our culture to be eroded or be forced to take down crosses bc it offends Muslims and our women to be told how to dress because a migrant will sexually assault her and yet blame her for it bc she wasn't covered up. Even school girls are told not to wear skirts in some areas in Germany because the school is close to a refugee camp and they don't want the horny men staying there to assault the girl.

Poland is still a sovereign nation. To borrow an equivalent American term, Poland has "states' rights."

It was Merkel's madness which woke Poles up to unelected and unaccountable Berlin-based EU tyranny trying to ram quotas of non-EU economic migrants down everyone's throat.

Even though Poles have taken advantage of the free movement of labor to go to places like Germany and the UK, Poland's economy has still been doing quite well over the past decade. Unemployment has been declining (most notably since PiS was elected) and was never nearly as high as some other EU countries have been especially Greece and Spain.

Greeks and Spaniards and others struggling elsewhere in the EU never left in waves to find a better life in Poland. But Poland has balanced things well though by bringing Ukrainians and Belarusians in to help fill vacancies.

I've said before that advanced economies are changing through ever increasing use of artificial intelligence and robotics.

The leftist dream of an international socialist revolution marching its way from the Third World to the West is dead. The need for labor is dwindling at an ever accelerating rate.

Finding consumers with sources of income (and the ability to still tax salaries or transactions made in the market place) will be the real challenge for governments and businesses in the 21st century and beyond.

Yes, but as an EU member state Poland is bound to agreements such as the fundamental right of EU citizens of free movement within the EU.

ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/document/files/com_2013_837_free-movement_en.pdf


Not yet.


Correct. That's why Trump's promise to bring back manufacturing jobs to the US is mostly hot air. Same goes for Germany for example, where large corporations and politicians have been whining about the lack of trained employees as long as I can remember. Total bull.

Not really, and especially not EU nationals. That was the point.

europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/work-abroad/work-permits/index_en.htm

Exactly. People forget that the vast majority of terrorism in Europe is carried out by EU citizens, and has been that way for many, many years.

What I see (off the top of my head) are South Asian, East Asian and African in that order. A lot are probably working or "studying" in Poland. The South Asians are mostly hindu I think (more Indian at least)


The terror people worry about now is by disaffected muslims (who turn to religious based violence because they're failures and alienated from the societies they're living in). That's a very good reason for Poland to want to avoid growing a large muslim miinority on its own and to resist efforts by clueless outsiders to jump start one.

The one thing that could save the muslim minority in Europe is a massive turn toward secularism, abandoning alienating customs like hijab, not fixating over trivia like halal meat and the sexes mingling, pursuing secular education and keeping their religion at home and the mosque. A don't see that happening, instead the rolling disaster that is muslim dysfunction in Europe will get worse until something drastic happens...

I think it's too young a religion for that. The other problem of course is that they're filled with evangelical zeal to convert non-believers, much as Christians were a thousand years ago. Go back to Christianity in the 11th century and there you have the present state of Islam. I remember chatting with a lovely Algerian lady in Dublin, very intelligent, educated etc who was completely 'Western' in her demeanour, jeans, uncovered hair, and I was quite startled when she mentioned in passing how we're all descended from Adam and Eve. The fact that her belief system was so literal, that there was no concept of the Old Testament being symbolic rather than fact was a surprise to me because as I say she wasn't an unsophisticated person. A thousand years ago, educated, intelligent Christians would have shared her views and had a similar interpretation of the Bible.

I disagree with that, the muslim world was rapidly secularizing through the 1960s, that only started turning around in the 1970s through a bunch of events that people have mostly forgotten about (like the seizure of the grand mosque in saudi arabia - resolved partly through giving religous nut jobs more legal authority which is where Saudi funding religous crazies abroad started from).

The young nature of Islam isn't about particular beliefs but how rapidly they can change. A religion is like a pendulum that never stops swinging but over time the amplitude of the swing gets smaller and smaller (as in modern judaism and christianity) islam was set in motion more recently and so the swings are bigger between larger extremes.

But that's not Poland's job and nothing Poland could do would produce any better results for a muslim minority than in any other European country which is why Poland should resist efforts by clueless outsiders to create a muslim 'community' here.

Stick to the topic everyone, please

I'm not so sure about that. I think it would be truer to say that the governments/rulers of countries with largely Muslim populations took a secular approach. I'm quite certain that for the majority of the people religion continued to play an important part in their daily lives. Everybody would have been observant to some degree.

The concern I have, is that PIS is taking advantage of the nation's fear of being overrrun by Muslim hordes to distract attention from their own very sinister actions involving dismantling democracy and turning Poland into a Catholic, Fascist totalitarian state. Poland is in far greater danger from its own government at the moment than it is from Islamic fundamentalists.

Woops sorry, just saw the 'stick to topic' thing Mods. Consider this my last word on Muslims in this thread. Mind you you can hardly talk about Europe without talking about immigration. And it is a fact that immigration policy is a stumbling factor in terms of Polish support for EU membership.

Do the mods even read the threads? The topic of mostly muslim refugees being settled in Poland against the wishes of the majority of the population is crucially tied to support for the EU.

To say anything intelligent aobut that it's necessary to give background information.

Some people just like to look for enemies, without addressing the root causes of an issue. Nevertheless support for EU membership is strong in Poland - 88% of those polled are in favour.

Free movement has worked very well for Poland.

the root cause of the issue is muslim immigration to Western Europe - if Poland can stop muslim immigration here it should

This will happen anyway and is a side issue.

Another case of multicultural enrichment in Marseille. Poland should and will stop the Islam ideology (it's disguised as religion but on par with Nazism and Communism) and only idiots talk freely about "immigration " and "side issues" in this case. Can not expect more from typical leftists (homo drug abusers with no morality. A man must have no morality.

wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/marsylia-samochod-wjechal-w-wiaty-autobusowe-jedna-osoba-nie-zyje/nf53kpd

A prosecutor says the crash is not being treated as a terrorist incident. Seems to have been deliberate though as the guy drove into two different bus stops an hour apart. Anyway he's already known to police for petty crime of various sorts and is said to have 'psychological problems'. He's probably just a run of the mill nut job, not a terrorist.

Quite. Something that EU membership can't affect.

EU policy could decide that parts of the world with greater than average levels of violent mental disturbances should not be a prime source of immigration.

France?

Exacly, there are plenty enough native nutters. There's no need to activley import more.

No suggestion of 'imports'

Freedom of movement has benefitted Poles enormously. Hence 88% support for EU membership.

Yes, but that's movement within the EU I'm talking about movement from outside the EU into EU member states and a lot of it is pretty unnecessary. What have Moroccans done for Spain lately beyond kill people for their religion?

People of north african origin have been heavily overrepresented in recent terror attacks - there's no reason for most of them being in Europe.

What I'm saying is that a single poll that finds 88 % saying they're in favor of the EU is essentially meaningless and could change if the EU keeps pursuing policies that are not in Polish (or EU) interests.

giving people a wide-open door to move where they like is usually a bad idea. remember when romanians were camping out in tunnels in england complaining about jobs or some such. some poles did the same. luckily the culture in europe arent vastly different. the paperwork and headaches involved usually werd out the lazy ones.

It's worked fairly well between Poland and the UK. I remember all the hassle back in the bad old days, queues for documents, hassles at the border.

Poles want to stay in EU no disputing that but they're against immigration from middle East and africa. Cbos polls show both are true

The question is which will be more important when push comes to shove.

@mafketis

Well poles have said that they'll pay the 2 bil fine if it comes down to it.. That comes out to about 200 zloty per person.. Not a big deal (8 bil zloty fine divided by 40 mil). Some have said they'll even leave eu over it. Even when poland and czechy did take migrants in a few years back more than half of em left for Germany anyway. We don't give handouts like Germany here people have to work if they want something. Most the migrants coming into poland are Ukrainians Georgians belarussians and Chechens anyway which we've graciously taken in. Id say our duty is done from the 1 mil Ukrainians we took in alone. We don't get many Tunisian morrocans or Arabs that want to come here. They dont want to go to poland they prefer Germany sweden uk or even France. The majority of poles want to keep their country homogenous and I'm sure they'll go to quite far to keep it that way. Whether it involves leaving eu I don't know. However as far as paying the 2 bil fine knowing poles the way I do they'll go for it. When po said they'd take in a few thousand there were massive protests. That was one of the reasons why they lost so many seats.

Poles and the rest of the v4 are open to European migration but not from the middle east. Poles are very slow and cautious to adopt western ideals and decide what we want and what we don't. We generally tend to reject the things that threaten our culture and traditions but are open to those that don't like women's rights for example. We don't want our culture and traditions to be eroded. Far too many poles have died trying to preserve our borders and our culture. Its a cost benefit analysis and quite frankly Poland doesn't see the benefits of taking in massive amounts of people from the middle east and africa. Poland will even sooner take in sub Saharan africans than Arabs. They're even more open to taking in Eritrean because most are Christian. In Warsaw alone 150k protested against migration from Muslim countries on dzien niepodleglosci. Back in the 90s and early 00s youd almost never see blacks in wroclaw. Now there's quite a few esp from west Africa both tourists and people who have settled down. I've even seen a few west Africans married to poles. U would have never saw that 10 20 years ago. But with Arabs its different poles are simply too afraid after they see what keeps happening in western Europe and they don't want to take the security risk.

Eu has been threatening the v4 for almost 2 years now about the migrant issue and we've stood our ground. More countries are now starting to understand what taking in massive amounts of migrants entails and don't want to do it anymore. Namely Austria and Denmark. Austria said no way when Italy wanted to push 200k migrants through the north. You can bet that Muslim terror attacks won't stop and if anything will increase which will make more and more Europeans weary about accepting masses of unvetted migrants. Then add all the economic costs of losing tourist dollars and taking care of these new people language courses assimilation health care child care etc when most are paying little to no taxes.

Personally I think poland and v4 should just wait it out. Sadly more and more terrorist attacks will occur in conjunction with economic issues and budget deficits exacerbated by mass migration. This will turn people and country's administrations away from accepting more migrsnts and the list of countries who won't want to take in migrants will continue to grow.

So no reason for those who get all worked up about it to worry. Take the people, let them disperse to better places and save the 2bn.


Of course, rather than stressing over something that will happen gradually anyway.