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European funds - why Poland should refuse to receive them.


Torq 32 | 2,999
30 Jan 2020 #1
European funds are very often named as the main cause of Poland's success and rapid development in recent years. However, it is enough to look at the numbers to realise how nonsensical such opinions are.

Poland has received around 162 billion euro since we entered the EU in 2004. At the same time we paid 53 billion into the EU budget. These numbers mean that we received, on average, 7.5 billion euro a year or a whopping 194 euro/year per capita, which means that Poland received about 16 euro/month per capita from the EU.

Compared to Polish GDP per capita, the amount received in EU funds is almost negligible.

To be more specific, 16 euro/m is about 67pln/month. If you like peanuts, that's probably how much you would spend monthly for this rather cheap, popular snack. So, what we get from the EU is literally peanuts money. Also, we have to take into account the enormous cost of all the bureaucracy connected with applying for and receiving EU funds, as well as the fact that out of every euro given to Poland in EU funds by the German, for example, tax payer, 88 cents goes straight back to Germany (the statistics look even worse in case of Austria - 97 cents goes back to Austrian companies). If you consider all that, then the peanuts money are no longer enough even for peanuts - so why should we keep receiving them, and keep hearing how the "EU supports and sustains Polish economy" (we never hear the end of it actually)?

As I said on many occasions before, receiving handouts cannot make you rich, and in case of EU funds it creates a false image of Poland being a country dependent on EU money for it's very existence (almost!). It also creates a beggar mentality in some people, who seem to believe that Poland wouldn't be able to be successful without the pocket money from the EU. EU funds can help you a little bit, only if you help yourself before and build your success on solid foundations. If you think otherwise, all you have to do is take a good look at Greece.

The EU budget will definitely decrease after Brexit, so it's a good opportunity for Poland to say:

"Thank you - we won't be needing your funds anymore. Of course, we will pay our share into the budget, but we won't be accepting any more funds from anyone. We shall base our well-being on our own hard work, thrift and creativity, as we have always done."

Who's with me? :)
cms neuf - | 1,588
30 Jan 2020 #2
I will hold on to mine if it's Ok with you. It might only be 67 zloty a head but it's 330 for my five person household and it's spent on roads, airports, playgrounds, cutting pollution etc.

If you really want to complain about dependency then the Polish govts own handout policies are the place to start.
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
30 Jan 2020 #3
It might only be 67 zloty a head

You don't really get that much - you have to deduct all the cost I mentioned in my previous post, and most of the time (i.e. for the infrastructural projects you mentioned) you have to provide 50% of the money yourself.

Besides, is 330pln/month a large percentage of your family's monthly income? Are you happy to hear that your family's well-being depends on that money? How does that make you feel as a father? ;)

Polish govts own handout policies

It's a different matter altogether. I certainly don't support excessive welfare spending, but that's Polish taxpayers' money being given to Polish citizens (no one from abroad can complain that they support Polish children, for example).

my five person household

I assume it's a 2+3 family, so you receive 1500pln in child benefit (500+) alone, straight into your account every month. Somebody could possibly say that your family's well-being depends on the money you get from the government (he/she would probably be wrong too), but to say the same thing about EU funds is nothing short of ridiculous.
Lenka 3 | 1,954
30 Jan 2020 #4
you have to provide 50% of the money yourself.

Which means 50% comes from the founds. I don't know of course but it seems to me that it's easier to provide 50% than 100%.
And if you are young person starting some small buisness that makes a huge difference.

And I would like to see you convincing the farmers to give up theirs :D
Ironside 49 | 10,302
30 Jan 2020 #5
Who's with me? :)

Only IF Poland doesn't have to pay anything to EU and AFTER Polish parliament accept a bill that would state Polish law take precedence over EU legislation on the territory of Poland.
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
30 Jan 2020 #6
I don't know of course but it seems to me that it's easier to provide 50% than 100%.

Theoretically, yes :) However, in most cases local authorities have 0% for a given project, so to provide the needed 50% they simply take out long-term loans, so they end up paying off the sum closer to the 100% anyway (besides, the loans come, by and large, from foreign banks). Also, if they had to SAVE for the project themselves (maybe with small addition of loan money) they would think twice if they really need another acquapark or if they really need an airport (Radom Airport comes to mind - a huge "success" :D).

And I would like to see you convincing the farmers to give up theirs :D

All the subsidies all over the EU should disappear. Polish farming could feed 120-140 million people (now they are being paid to decrease production or leave the land unused).

Polish law take precedence over EU legislation on the territory of Poland.

Well, that's the whole point - nobody would be able to tell Poland to do something OR they would take away our funds, because we wouldn't be taking any funds in the first place. :)
Lenka 3 | 1,954
30 Jan 2020 #7
to provide the needed 50% they simply take out long-term loans, so they end up paying off the sum closer to the 100% anyway

There are two pointa here:
-if you are saying that our governments are stupid enough to take loans on such a high interest then we are doomed anyway
- by that logic if the governments had to do this projects on their own they would spend close to 200% as they would have to take the loan for the full ammount.

they would think twice if they really need another acquapark or if they really need an airport

You are blaming the funds for the stupidness of some politicians? They are chosen by the society after all- sad but that is all up to us and we have only that to blame.

And who told you that they wouldn't just take a loan and making it even worse?

As to the farmers- the fact that it could produce so much doesn't mean that it would or that it would be profitable or smart.
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
30 Jan 2020 #8
if the governments had to do this projects on their own...

...they would have to think twice, and would most likely give up at least the most nonsensical ones.

In general, there should be a ban on government loans and on budget deficits. They should only be able to spend the money they actually have.

You are blaming the funds for the stupidness of some politicians?

No. I am blaming the funds for providing a useful tool for the politicians to wallow in their own stupidity. Look at what the "free money" did to Greek economy
Ironside 49 | 10,302
30 Jan 2020 #9
You are blaming the funds for the stupidness of some politicians?

What politicians what governments we are talking here local people on county level. People vote them into power for those aquaparks and stuff. Plus those who take contracts to build it are connected with local people in charge. In what world are you living, you seems to be ignorant of all that stuff. Talking about informed voters.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
30 Jan 2020 #10
Who's with me? :)

I am. Good post but you forgot to mention that with that free peanut money come demands, conditions, and control.
Plus, nobody ever received any money from the government. All money comes from other taxpayers or a printing press, which is theft by another name.
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
30 Jan 2020 #11
Good point. However, as long as they spend only the money they get from taxes, tariffs or profits from state-owned companies, that's OK with me. The problem begins when the idiots start taking bank loans - loans that our children will have to repay. That's one thing that I hate the most, to see how usurers get even fatter on Polish sweat and toil.

The main aim of any patriotic government must be a balanced budget (and I don't mean a fake balanced budget like the current one, but a proper one where expenditure in any form is never higher than the income).
pawian 170 | 11,329
1 Feb 2020 #12
So, what we get from the EU is literally peanuts money

Hmm, after deducting Polish contribution from gained funds, we are 110 billion in the black, right. It makes about 7 billion per year since 2004. I wouldn`t call it peanut money. I can see this money every day, driving on new or repaired roads, visiting renovated places of historical interest, sending my students to universities supplied with modern equipment, using my central heating etc etc.
Miloslaw 7 | 3,260
1 Feb 2020 #13
Hmm, after deducting Polish contribution from gained funds, we are 110 billion in the black

That may be true, but Poland is getting very close to becoming a net contributor to The EU... and if they then push for even more central control and federalism, I don't think that will play out well with Polish people.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
1 Feb 2020 #14
Hey, what about those refugees Germany was so eager to donate to Poland? I heard that they are a real treasure and that they contribute a lot to the host.

How many billions are they worth and why would Poland refuse to take them if they are so valuable?
pawian 170 | 11,329
1 Feb 2020 #15
EU funds it creates a false image of Poland being a country dependent on EU money for it's very existence

Hmm, it sounds really exaggerated, I have never heard or read such interpretation of EU funds.

EU funds can help you a little bit,

Yes, 7 billion a year is a nice little gratification.

we will pay our share into the budget, but we won't be accepting any more funds from anyone.

That is a very heroic honourable decision. :) But it won`t be necessary - nobody is really calling Poland out on accepting what we duly receive coz such are EU regulations about aiding new members in adopting EU standards.

That may be true, but Poland is getting very close to becoming a net contributor to The EU...

It is going to take a long time for Poland to contribute more than she receives. I just checked Spain, in the EU since 1986. In 2017 Spain received 9 billion but contributed 8.

31 years after their access they are still in the black.

europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries/spain_pl
Ironside 49 | 10,302
2 Feb 2020 #16
It is going to take a long time for Poland to contribute more than she receives.

It shows your live off people's taxes. Pen pushers like you should just shut their traps. Nominal numbers are not everything. Deal is more complex than what some pen pusher can grasp.
pawian 170 | 11,329
2 Feb 2020 #17
BS, as usual from you. Do you know what you are talking about at all? :):)
Ironside 49 | 10,302
2 Feb 2020 #18
Yes, about your inability to grasp complex issues. Either that or you are getting some incentive from status quo.

Read Torq post properly.
pawian 170 | 11,329
2 Feb 2020 #19
No, darling. You must explain in detail what you mean. It seems you just babble at random about things you have no idea about. It is your typical primitive style of discussion. It is probably good for your wife or kids, but we are more demanding in the forum. :))
Crow 139 | 8,583
2 Feb 2020 #20
Who's with me? :)

If it mean something to you brate, I am with you.

the amount received in EU funds is almost negligible

But it has interest rate. Like banking interest. See, EU funds are investments. Not quite a gift. And it will grow exponentially when Poland announce wish to abandon the EU. Plus, interest rate will be defined by the giver of funds, not by Poland. Then also, beside interest, you needs to calculate amount of profit that is/was result of those investments (EU funds). Then, you have cumulative effect of those funds on economy, etc, etc, etc.

You would be unpleasantly surprised when western Europe (ie EU) deliver THAT bill to Poland. Sure, they will tell to Poland - `you can always pay with your territories and here is the hint...`
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
2 Feb 2020 #21
push for even more central control and federalism,

You are aware that centralism and federalism are two completely opposite concepts right? You can't push for both of them.
pawian 170 | 11,329
2 Feb 2020 #22
to see how usurers get even fatter on Polish sweat and toil.

That sounds like 19th century Marxist dogma. :) Torq, why are you talking like a communist? I never suspected you of such opinions. :):)

federalism

I think Milo meant that national governments of single countries will lose their importance and sovereignty and the main federal government will take over. That is what the British disliked most in the EU.
Crow 139 | 8,583
2 Feb 2020 #23
Just heard that German language becoming main working language of EU. So, to get funds, learn German. When in EU and when get funds, you are captured by Germany.

Say that things didn`t become nasty and to say, more obvious.
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
2 Feb 2020 #24
Fortunately, it is only an impression which is so far from reality. :))

If you say so. :)

Anyway, getting back to the topic of EU funds...

I just checked Spain, in the EU since 1986. In 2017 Spain received 9 billion but contributed 8.

Spain also has 3-4 times higher unemployment rate than Poland, as well as much lower GDP growth - and we're talking about a country that borders France and Portugal, didn't experience nearly as terrifying damage in economy and loss of lives in WW2 as Poland did, and managed to avoid 45 years of communist rule. Hardly a success story.

Of course, you could argue that without the EU funds they would be even worse off, but in general my point is that it's better to rely on our own hard-work and resources than to create dependence (even if only a mental one) on the so-called "free money" from the EU.
pawian 170 | 11,329
2 Feb 2020 #25
rely on our own hard-work and resources than to create dependence (even if only a mental one) on the so-called "free money"

Torq, are you working on behalf of PiS government? This year the EU is going to create a new budget and it is expected Poland will get much less than in previous years not only due to Brexit but also due to PiS clash with the EU over undemocratic acts. Are you trying to prepare us for this situation? I can imagine PiS propagandists claiming the same what you just said above. :):)
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
2 Feb 2020 #26
I doubt it. Being essentially a socialist party (national-socialist, but still) PiS has nothing against handouts, as can be very well observed in both their domestic and foreign policies.

Torq, are you working on behalf of PiS government?

Seriously, Pawian, you do resort to ad hominem remarks much more than you used to (at least as far as I can remember). Maybe you're no longer a teacher? Are you following a different career path these days?
pawian 170 | 11,329
2 Feb 2020 #27
Being essentially a socialist party (national-socialist, but still)

yes, national-socialist, like in the past. :):)

PiS has nothing against handouts,

Provided they are offered unconditionally without any requirements. But now the EU is going to present their demands to PiS - you will get funds if you give up undemocratic solutions. PiS don`t know what they should do and various options are being discussed. One of them might be rejecting the funds altogether.

That is why I thought you are working for PiS, trying to prepare people for future decisions. :):)

Seriously, Pawian, you do resort to ad hominem remarks much more than you used to (at least as far as I can remember).

If you say you noticed it, I must believe you. But.... Did you also notice that the situation has changed drastically in recent years? If you did, then I don`t need to explain anything else. If you didn`t, I don`t need to explain anything, either. hahaha

Maybe you're no longer a teacher?

I am the one by vocation. I will teach you even in Hell or Heaven - wherever we meet. hahaha

Are you following a different career path these days?

For example?
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
2 Feb 2020 #28
One of them might be rejecting the funds altogether.

It would be a smart move, but I'm afraid the words "smart" and "PiS" don't go together well.

That is why I thought you are working for PiS

If you had read what I recently wrote here about PiS, you wouldn't think that. :)

For example?

Well, I was thinking ecological farming, but you've just told me you're still a teacher, so let's not delve into the topic. :)
Ironside 49 | 10,302
2 Feb 2020 #29
but you've just told me you're still a teacher,

people like him should teach anything to anybody they are just a bad influence.
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
2 Feb 2020 #30
just a bad influence

Naaah, Pawi is not that bad. Of course, I would prefer him to be a decent centre-right Christian Democrat like me, but hey - nobody's perfect! :)


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