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Poles say a big YES to our European Union


Spike31 3 | 1,625
8 May 2020 #301
MNore than covered by the opportunities created.

Those opportunities, of which the only substantial one is single market, could be achieved without all the numerous disadvantages of the EU membership. Examples: Norway, Switzerland.

And now the UK is 'taking one for the team' by leaving the EU which was never done before. I trust that UK will benefit from it in the long term thus showing the others that there's a better life outside of Euro-kolkhoz
Torq 32 | 2,999
8 May 2020 #302
And now the UK is 'taking one for the team' by leaving the EU which was never done before.

...and the disaster, that so many predicted, hasn't come yet. This time last year British pound was 4.99pln, today it's 5.20. If Britain does better economically outside the EU than when it was a member, it will have tremendous repercussions throughout the Union.
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
8 May 2020 #303
EU membership. Examples: Norway, Switzerland.

Are you really trying to compare the situation of Norway, a country with 5 million people and vast oil/gas reserves, and Switzerland, with 8 million people and a huge centuries-old international banking and finance sector to Poland? That comparison is so risible it isn't worth discussing further.

...and the disaster, that so many predicted, hasn't come yet.

Because we haven't fully left; the transition period is still ongoing, existing trade deals are still in force as are fiscal regulations.
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
9 May 2020 #304
That comparison is so risible it isn't worth discussing further.

Indeed. It is also worth mentioning that both of them are in much more favourable geopolitical positions, with no immediate threat to their security nearby (particulary Switzerland). Furthermore both countries have to adhere to EU rules without any say or representation.
Ironside 49 | 10,304
9 May 2020 #305
favourable geopolitical positions, with no immediate threat to their security nearby

Which has nothing do to with EU.
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
9 May 2020 #306
It is part of the explanation why those countries can afford to stay outside the EU,and it is of course relevant when one wants to use them as an example for Poland.

Poland is not Switzerland. It is not quasi unconquerable thanks to its' territory, and it is not surrounded on all sides by peaceful and overall friendly democratic neighbours.
Ironside 49 | 10,304
9 May 2020 #307
It is not quasi unconquerable

that is exactly my point. EU and it institutions and laws have nothing to do with security or defensibility of any EU country. As it happens most of the EU members are also a part of the NATO. A pact that ensures considerable amount of security in case of some military threat.

You are not addressing the issue just another straw man argument. Which indicates to me you have no arguments.
Crow 139 | 8,583
9 May 2020 #308
and it is not surrounded on all sides by peaceful and overall friendly democratic neighbours.

Poland is right now safest then ever in last 800 and more years. But not thanks to EU or NATO. In fact thanks to strengthening of Slavic world. Slavic East and Slavic West and Slavic Central Europe. Impetus of Germanic and western European Drang Nach Osten is obviously broken on Yugoslavia and Serbia and its impossible for western Europe to move eastward. In turn, Russia won`t be forced to answer by moving western onto Poland, in order to keep threat farther from Moscow.

So Poland actually entered in phase where can even more profit on strengthening of Slavic world. I am sure Poland will territoriality expand. But sure, must have at least normal leadership, realistic and balanced policy.

It will help a lot of if Christianity unites or if not for that, at least Poland to gets its clear national ethnic Polish Catholic Church, strongly autonomous from Vatican. After all, Empire must be independent. Finally, independent.
Spike31 3 | 1,625
9 May 2020 #309
more favourable geopolitical positions, with no immediate threat to their security nearby

NATO, not the EU, serves the purpose of protecting member states against those threats. And the balance of power in Europe is maintained by the US first and foremost.

EU is a semi-efficient trading pact, with a strong left-leaning ideological undertone, not a military pact.
mafketis 23 | 8,381
9 May 2020 #310
can afford to stay outside the EU

Any comments on the court ruling last week and possible consequences?
KorkiTaczer - | 62
9 May 2020 #311
What kind of court ruling? Where? In Poland?
mafketis 23 | 8,381
9 May 2020 #312
What kind of court ruling?

This one:

spiked-online.com/2020/05/08/germany-has-dealt-a-blow-to-the-eu/
Torq 32 | 2,999
9 May 2020 #313
Very sensible move by Germany, as we celebrate the Europe Day 2020...

May 9 is Europe Day (...) established in 1985 in the European Union to commemorate the Schuman Declaration

polskieradio.pl/395/7784/Artykul/2507046,Europe-Day-2020

... hopefully, thanks to the German common sense, the Union and its members will grow ever stronger (even if some greedy, corrupt southern members will have to face the consequences of their past actions). Thank you Germany!

Europe Day
Crow 139 | 8,583
9 May 2020 #314
Don't be naive. No place for all of us and all our differences in that heart.
Torq 32 | 2,999
9 May 2020 #315
There a place in this heart for every European who cares about Europe (and not for China, for example).
Crow 139 | 8,583
9 May 2020 #316
EU isn't Europe and China is a better partner than the EU.
KorkiTaczer - | 62
9 May 2020 #317
This one:

I don't think that this ruling will change anything, especially when it comes to Poland vs EU case. Germany's top constitutional court hasn't done anything new here. As far as I can remember Spain has done it before and probably some other EU countries as well. Btw, this judgment has been already covered in Polish media, not widely, but still. I believe some German journalist called it "a special case of communication between the court in Karlsruhe and the CJEU, but nothing anti-EU". So I don't see how it can change anything for Poland but I could be wrong :)
Crow 139 | 8,583
9 May 2020 #318
Poland vs EU case

Forget the case. Poland would do good to abandon the EU as soon as possible. Run out of it. EU would be opened like an evil banana, to the very core of its evil.

China, for example

BDW, you shouldn't worry about China. Doctor Trump and doctor Putin lead the surgical operations in Europe.
Torq 32 | 2,999
9 May 2020 #319
I don't think that this ruling will change anything, especially when it comes to Poland vs EU case.

Well, it does show that Germany think that their own constitutional court is more important than the European court, so I suppose it applies to all the other member countries as well. :) Of course we knew that before, but it's nice to get another firm confirmation from Germany. ;)

Poland would do good to abandon the EU as soon as possible.

No.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
9 May 2020 #320
....To the consternation of the German and EU establishments, the court made up its own mind on whether the ECB had acted lawfully under EU law, and decided it had not. ....

spiked-online.com/2020/05/08/germany-has-dealt-a-blow-to-the-eu/

Ooooh what a ruckuss that made...

But I don't think it will have real repercussions....after all the opening of the borders in 2015 wasn't lawful either and I don't see Merkel going to jail anytime soon.
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
9 May 2020 #321
after all the opening of the borders in 2015 wasn't lawful either

False. Not closing the border was completely legal under German law.

EU and it institutions and laws have nothing to do

The EU is an important amplifier of the political independence of its' member states, particulary the smaller, Eastern countries. Being inside the EU increases the political weight of each country while negotiating with Russia.

The EU is also becoming more active in boosting the military cooperation between member states with e.g. PESCO. Which is a good thing, considering the forseeable demise of NATO by American hands.

just another straw man argument.

A basic geopolitocal observation is the farthest from any straw man. Countries like Poland can use any alliance that increases their weight and independence from Russia. That is a fact.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
9 May 2020 #322
False. Not closing the border was completely legal under German law.

Erm...maybe we can compromise on "law status unclear"?

welt.de/politik/deutschland/article168900336/Gutachten-sieht-unklare-Rechtsgrundlage-fuer-Grenzoeffnung.html

But I didn't like it so I personally see it as unlawful, as it was made in dictatorial fashion without asking the parliament!

The EU is also becoming more active in boosting the military cooperation between member states with e.g. PESCO

I agree...be it PESCO or FRONTEX....all these organizations played till now a rather weak role because of a strong NATO...that changes already.
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
9 May 2020 #323
No court has declared it as illegal, despite the best attempts of the AfD. So of course it can not be considered illegal.

as it was made in dictatorial fashion without asking the parliament

There was no legal need to consult the parliament. Nor was it done in "dictatorial" fashion, because that implies that Merkel deprieved the parliaments of its' rights. Another AfD lie. What happened was that Merkel held a press conference in early September, and the opposition had the opportunity afterwards to demand a debate in the Bundestag afterwards. Which they did not do, because they agreed with Merkel's decision. Nothing dictatorial there.
KorkiTaczer - | 62
9 May 2020 #324
PESCO

PESCO is just as important as TESCO.

considering the forseeable demise of NATO by American hands

Fortunately, German hands will save the day, right?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
9 May 2020 #325
So of course it can not be considered illegal.

It isn't considered legal either, hence my olive branch...

There was no legal need to consult the parliament.

Sure it was....and with hindsight Merkel had better!

But of course when the outcome is in doubt or could even be unfavourable things like parliaments or plebiscites are no longer signs of a working democracy but rather frowned upon...people could vote "wrong"!

Nor was it done in "dictatorial" fashion

Yes it was...she decided as she "felt" like it...alone! Heeding no advise or doubts or warnings....asking nobody....like a dictator.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
9 May 2020 #326
Which they did not do, because they agreed with Merkel's decision.

Astounding, isn't it? As nothing did more to polarize the Germans than what happened in 2015, it changed the whole country and it's political landscape.

But back then everybody really was happy with Merkel's decision? No disagreements? What was wrong with them?
Crow 139 | 8,583
9 May 2020 #327
Fortunately, German hands will save the day, right?

Yes, as we hear these days Germans desire US troops to go out of Germany.

Didn't I said here that USA troops in Poland coming because of Germany and not because of Russia.
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
9 May 2020 #328
If you did, you were wrong.
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
9 May 2020 #329
It isn't considered legal

There is a big difference between considering something illegal and merely as grey area. In dubio pro reo, calling it illegal with this argument is incorrect.

Sure it was....and with hindsight Merkel had better!

It would have looked better, especially in hindsight, but there was no requirement to do so.

Astounding, isn't it?

Not really. It was obviously the right decision. All democrats knew this, and since demagogues of the AfD had yet to pollute the Bundestag, they decided accordingly.
Spike31 3 | 1,625
9 May 2020 #330
Countries like Poland can use any alliance that increases their weight and independence from Russia. That is a fact.

Sure, free economic relations between European nations are beneficial.

The EU is beyond redemption though. It has been penetrated by generation '68 neomarxists ("the long march through the institutions") to the point that it became a tool of a leftist social engineering on a mass scale.

European nations should destroy this organizations and establish a fresh economic connections based on a free economic exchange and without [left-leaning] political undertones.


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