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Poles say a big YES to our European Union


Torq 32 | 2,999
8 May 2020 #271
All the countries who think that getting even more into debt is a good solution for any economy should leave the EU. There should be no EU bonds, no credit lines and what's more important -- absolute ban on budget deficits. There's no way the EU can function with southern members always up to the ears in eternal debt, cheating and corruption.
mafketis 23 | 8,360
8 May 2020 #272
getting even more into debt is a good solution for any economy should leave the EU

So just plunge the continent into the worst depression ever and then cut government services?

The whole point of supranational organizations like the EU should be to shelter populations from the deprivations of savage capitalism (aka dziki kapitalizm in Polish)

If they can't do that then what use are they?

Poland didn't really experience a savage capitalism stage in the early 1990s but it's likely to without significant economic stimulus from the government - how do you like the idea of post-USSR style bandit wars on Polish streets?
cms neuf - | 1,573
8 May 2020 #273
They can only borrow money if people will lend it to them. Deficits are possible but can't be created from thin air - without capitalist markets for debt then deficits are impossible.

Lending comes with conditions - usually ones that ensure the money will paid back.

Poland is still able to borrow money, many countries will find it very tough.
Torq 32 | 2,999
8 May 2020 #274
cut government services

If you can't afford them, yes. Drowning ever deeper into debt is madness.

savage capitalism

Living within one's means and not getting into more and more debt isn't "savage capitalism" - it's called common sense.

If they can't do that then what use are they?

To facilitate trade and movement of people and services within the Union. The rest is nonsense. All the farming subsidies, structural funds etc. should be given up, and one golden rule introduced: saving and hard work, then even more saving and even more hard work. No debt, no credit lines, no corrupt politicians buying votes with money our children and grandchildren will have to repay. This madness has to stop, and I'm quite happy to see Germany finally understanding this.

post-USSR style bandit wars on Polish streets?

What nonsense. During communism Poland was much poorer, and we didn't have "bandit wars". In case crime rate rises, police forces will be strengthened and bandits liquidated. Simple as that.
Crow 139 | 8,566
8 May 2020 #275
saving and hard work, then even more saving and even more hard work.

True. This is exactly how I imagine Central-European Confederation. EU just isn`t capable for sanity.
Torq 32 | 2,999
8 May 2020 #276
Central-European Confederation

Good idea. But first you have to stop kissing Chinese asses... or flags; or preferably both.
mafketis 23 | 8,360
8 May 2020 #277
In case crime rate rises, police forces will be strengthene

You don't understand austerity - one of the key planks of austerity is to cut back on the police (see the UK). This is also combined with emptying prisons (as is happening in both the US and EU). The combination is absolutely on purpose to intimidate the public against protests.

Millions and millions of jobs have disappeared because of the quarantine. it will take years for some of them to return and some will likely never return - the pool of the permanently unemployed (through no fault of their own) is massive growing.

And all you have is Thatcher-Reagan-Merkel lectures?

Europe will probably get through this in a little better shape than the US but we're in for rough times and worshiping at the altar of austerity will just make it worse.

many countries will find it very tough.

Screw Italy then?
Torq 32 | 2,999
8 May 2020 #278
one of the key planks of austerity is to cut back on the police (see the UK)

Somehow I don't see PiS government saving on military and police forces. If other countries plan to do that, that's their problem, but that's a separate issue. The most important thing is to avoid debt and bring back three forgotten things: common sense, thrift, and work ethics.

If there are countries that decided to build their well-being on reckless spending, excessive loans and corruption, they will have to face the consequences of their actions.
Crow 139 | 8,566
8 May 2020 #279
Good idea. But first you have to stop kissing Chinese asses... or flags; or preferably both.

Nobody kissing asses here. But flags are alright, as long as we have our intersts respected.

You think Vatican and Germany hurry to finance the prosperity of Central-Europeans? or Britain?

How can China harm us? If they try they easily get the middle finger and closed door of Europe. The problem are those who want and have the capability to dictate.

Screw Italy then?

Just a few days before Corona I tried here to speak something against Italy, to open eyes to Poles but, I got reprimandation. Problem with Poles is that they need things to blow-up in their faces to understand.
mafketis 23 | 8,360
8 May 2020 #280
I don't see PiS government saving on military and police forces.

In this thread I'm talking about general EU trends - Poland has not been affected by austerity - but the austerity regime (which has nothing to do with old fashioned work ethic values etc) is on the increase all over the EU.

Poland hasn't faced a challenge like the present one since 1989 - which was brutal for the population. Do you want repeat of that?
Torq 32 | 2,999
8 May 2020 #281
You think Vatican and Germany hurry to finance the prosperity of Central-Europeans?

Vatican: we finance them, they get so much money from Poland they don't know what to do with it. :)

Germany: it's a mutually beneficial partnership - both sides gain a lot from close cooperation. But still nobody in Poland kisses German flag, and we don't expect them to kiss our flag.

How can China harm us? If they try they easily get the middle finger and closed door of Europe.

Yes, yes, but why the flag kissing??? Seriously, Crow - what your president did was quite vomit-inducing. Don't you see that? Where's your honour?

#stopcommieflagkissing #restoredignityforSerbia
Crow 139 | 8,566
8 May 2020 #282
Vatican: we finance them, they get so much money from Poland they don't know what to do with it. :)

You finance Vatican, you finance EU, you finance NATO, you finance junk armament, etc. Man, what money remain in Poland. Are you all insane there?

But still nobody in Poland kisses German flag, and we don't expect them to kiss our flag.

They killed you and all Slavs in massive genocides. Sure you won`t kiss their flag.

Yes, yes, but why the flag kissing???

Because it works with Chinese. Its basic diplomacy. They just love it. It goes on their TV. Brate, you can`t imagine those comments on their TV. Somebody in Europe kissed flag of great China.

Its, it's kind... it's like when you share a cigar with Afro-American.
Torq 32 | 2,999
8 May 2020 #283
I'm talking about general EU trends

You were disappointed with Germany refusing to finance budget deficits of corrupt, debt-ridden, southern states of the Union. What you call austerity, I call common sense.

Poland is doing fine, thank you, and she will continue to do fine as long as we avoid excessive debt, corruption and spending money that we don't have. Actually, Polish government, even though it is sometimes anti-German/EU in their internal rhethorics, actually tries to emulate German ordoliberalism from 1950s-70s, and it would seem to be working.
cms neuf - | 1,573
8 May 2020 #284
But the quarantine and the Coronavirus is not the fault of private banks. Why is it their responsibility to lend to countries who can't pay it back ?
mafketis 23 | 8,360
8 May 2020 #285
the quarantine and the Coronavirus is not the fault of private ban

And it's Italy's fault?

If the EU can't help countries that are hit with disasters not of their own making then.... what point is there in belonging to it?

Poland is doing fine

And if it stops doing fine will not ask for one red cent of EU money.... (and will take it upon itself to return the EU monies it has received)?
cms neuf - | 1,573
8 May 2020 #286
That is not the EUs role - it has a small budget and is definitely not responsible for public health. There are many reasons to belong to it starting. with helping preserve peace, trade and opportunities for business, agriculture, tech, and a common labor market.

Italy has had a bad time but it is a big rich country that has been mismanaged but still a world leader in many industries and with significant political power . It's not a charity case and can work out its own problems.
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
8 May 2020 #287
If you can't afford them, yes. Drowning ever deeper into debt is madness.

There are very few countries that don't borrow during or after a crisis.

All the farming subsidies, structural funds etc. should be given up

There are some sound reasons for these policies; not least to develop a cohesive economy without being vulnerable to internal 'market forces' and with a standard of living in each member state that is as equal as it is possible to create.
Torq 32 | 2,999
8 May 2020 #288
and will take it upon itself to return the EU monies it has received

Has any country EVER returned the EU funds it received? Why should Poland do it then? But, yes, I think farming subsidies and structural funds are doing more harm than good, and they should be given up.

to develop a cohesive economy without being vulnerable (...) and with a standard of living in each member state that is as equal as possible

If that was the case, the subsidies for Polish farmers would be the same as the subsidies for French farmers. They aren't. Without farming subsidies Polish farming, being more efficient and cost-effective, would be able to sell more of their products to European markets. As for structural funds, I already said it on numerous occasions -- all they do is causing the local governments all over Poland to take more loans and grow even deeper in debt, because they don't want to miss the opportuinity of having an idiotic aquapark, for example, "at half-price". It's only feeding German and French usurers (aka banks) with Polish sweat and blood.

As I said, return to common sense, thrift and work ethics is needed, as well as a complete ban on budget deficits -- corrupt politicians shouldn't be allowed to buy votes with money that even our grandchildren will still be paying off. If a country has been living beyond their means for decades, and now has to pay for their corruption, greed and excessive borrowing, then so be it. Welcome to the real world -- a world in which money comes from saving and hard work, not from another credit.
Spike31 3 | 1,610
8 May 2020 #289
and will take it upon itself to return the EU monies it has received

Sure, as long as the EU would cover the opportunity cost for Polish economy for all that GDP lost due to EU regulations Poland had to follow over the years.
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
8 May 2020 #290
opportunity cost ....due to EU regulations

MNore than covered by the opportunities created.

the subsidies for Polish farmers would be the same as the subsidies for French farmers.

This is a current issue for discussion by the relevant parties. I suspect you would find very few farmers here that don't welcome the farm subsidy.
Torq 32 | 2,999
8 May 2020 #291
Of course they "welcome" it, even if it's only half of what other farmers receive, because without it they wouldn't be able to compete at all with heavily subsidized farming in the west. Which doesn't change the fact that they would do much better if farming subsidies were given up in the entire Union.
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
8 May 2020 #292
even if it's only half of what other farmers receive,

Frmers' costs vary (or varied) around Europe. As costs level out, this has become a topic which is being currently discussed.

change the fact that they would do much better if farming subsidies were given up

Or even worse, since there would still necessarily be quotas and competition.
Torq 32 | 2,999
8 May 2020 #293
there would still necessarily be quotas

Why? Market needs would dictate the quantity of produce, not some politician or administrative official in his office in Brussels. We need to give up this communist idea of centrally planned economy.
mafketis 23 | 8,360
8 May 2020 #294
I was really hoping for comment from Germans on the court ruling there.... but...

And unfortunately all signs point to western governments in general using Coronavirus to ramp down on austerity even more.

Governments no longer feel any duty toward the citizenry and are withdrawing as fast as they can from providing services (healthcare, education, police) to anyone who isn't a billionaire.... and the suckers are going along with it because they listened to a Thatcher speech at some point.

It hasn't hit Poland yet but that doesn't mean it's not coming.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
8 May 2020 #295
We need to give up this communist idea of centrally planned economy.

Imagine the panic in Poland! People could barely handle PO deregulating things, can you imagine if they were suddenly told that their farms had to be profitable or they would be left to rot? It would be for the best in the long run, but you'd have millions of villagers from Eastern Poland out with their pitchforks, demanding that they get subsidies for their useless farm.
Torq 32 | 2,999
8 May 2020 #296
because they listened to a Thatcher speech at some point

I was too young to listen to, or understand anything from, any Thatcher speech, but I know one thing: incessant, never-ending borrowing of money, and drowning in ever increasing eternal debt is not a solution to anything. It only feeds the usurers with people's sweat and blood, and makes life harder for future generations who will have to repay all the loans.

the suckers

Blood suckers are the usurers, who create money out of thin air and enslave nations with eternal debt, and suckers are those who advocate increasing the debt even further.

you'd have millions of villagers from Eastern Poland out with their pitchforks, demanding that they get subsidies

...and their demands should fall on deaf ears (of course providing that the subsidies were given up in the entire EU).
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
8 May 2020 #297
Market needs would dictate

And thereby lies the problem.

this communist idea

It's a good idea, hence countries that (sadly) aren't politically on the left implementing it rigorously. Some things you don't leave to chance (or fickle markets).
mafketis 23 | 8,360
8 May 2020 #298
too young to listen to, or understand anything from, any Thatcher speech

Okay Balcerowicz....
Ziemowit 13 | 4,051
8 May 2020 #299
I was too young to listen to, or understand anything from, any Thatcher speech

So please read some excerpts from my favourite speech of Margaret Thatcher and you will understand: :

People keep saying to me that our policies are wrong, that they are derisive and that they will wreck British industry. I know ... But I say to them ... Sissy! Let us take our lead from Nature ... I've always admired this brave little beast - the lemming! Yes, they jump over cliffs and eventually get drowned in water, but at least they are not for ever complaining!

Of course, the majority of my ministers disagree with my policies, but ... they don't say so in public. Bravery is a great attribute and thank God they haven't got it!

We in the Conservative Party may be wrong, but we are wrong with so much more courage than any other party. As my uncle used to say: "Don't look behind you, don't look to the sides, look straight away and keep on walking!" They engraved it on his coffin after he got knocked down by the bus.

We never said things would be easy. Of course, we never said we'd cause a recession and three million unemployed. But look - there are no easy solutions! We are all in the same boat. The Titanic!

Miloslaw 7 | 3,219
8 May 2020 #300
@Ziemowit

Fake news.... please post a credible link where she said that.


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