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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #361
Don't worry Greggy, these people also turned out.


Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
13 Dec 2015 #362
these people also turned out.

Yeah, I love the 2nd picture, so much pathology in one place.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
13 Dec 2015 #364
"Citizens for democracy" :))))))
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #365
Yeah, I love the 2nd picture, so much pathology in one place.

More abuse of political opponents. Keep going, these things just encourage more and more on the streets ;)

Indeed cream of scum.

:D I love it, I really do.

I spoke to some old ladies today that told me that they came out to protest because of the abuse hurled by you and your types - they already lived through one system where anyone opposing was branded "scum", "traitors", "pathology' and so on - and they don't want to live in another.
Ironside 49 | 10,282
13 Dec 2015 #366
I spoke to some old ladies today

Who cares what some alleged ladies claimed, if they were attending this gathering of swine mess they have already sided with post-communist. They reminiscences are worthless BS.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #367
Ironside, why are you using such language? What scares you so much?

I know you're a diehard PiS supporter despite your claims to the contrary, but why the hatred? It was the same on the 10th - real venom and hatred for no real reason.

Interesting article in wPolityce, and strangely enough, rather different to the aggressive tone found in other articles.

wpolityce.pl/polityka/274888-koniec-niebezpiecznego-zludzenia-wyciagnac-nauki-z-feralnej-soboty?strona=1

To explain the article - it essentially points out that PiS and PiS supporters believed that the opposition was either defeated or was lying there passively. But Saturday's protests show that the opposition is capable of getting a large number of people on the streets, and that it is very dangerous to write them off as being dead. It goes on to explain that the views of many right wing commentators are dangerously wrong, and that it's also important for the government to win allies among the opposition.
Ironside 49 | 10,282
13 Dec 2015 #368
Ironside, why are you using such language? What scares you so much?

What? What are you even talking about? I hate those "people" for a number of reasons you seemingly cannot grasp. As I said Delph it is not your fight.

I know you're a diehard PiS supporter

You are astubborn nerd I have no reason to lie about it. I'm not as I said I support RN.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #369
You are a stubborn nerd I have no reason to lie about it. I'm not as I said I support RN.

That explains everything :D

As I said Delph it is not your fight.

It certainly is my fight, and I'm making it my fight.
pweeg
13 Dec 2015 #370
Putin's plan of attack is to question the legitimacy and borders of the countries between his empire and Germany.
Foreigners who anonymously attack the legitimacy of the Polish constitution should be considers as agents of Russia.

Who do you work for,"legal_eagle"?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #371
Putin's plan of attack is to question the legitimacy and borders of the countries between his empire and Germany.

Indeed, a lot of Russian propaganda focuses on the illegitimacy of the governments of their enemies. It was seen in Ukraine and Georgia, and similar nonsense was directed towards Poland when it became obvious that Poland had plans to source most of their fossil fuels elsewhere. It's a pretty consistent strategy.

Foreigners who anonymously attack the legitimacy of the Polish constitution should be considers as agents of Russia.

I don't think there's any other possible conclusion. It's a typical Russian-style attack, because the aim is to put doubts into minds.
Ironside 49 | 10,282
13 Dec 2015 #372
Foreigners who anonymously attack the legitimacy

What about foreigners who anonymously attack the legitimacy of the Polish government? Don't have a problem with that?
peterweg 37 | 2,321
13 Dec 2015 #373
Yes I do have a problem with it.

Anti-PO have been doing it for eight years and now anti-PiS are doing it.

The state of Polands political scene is a disgrace.

If they want the partition and destruction of Poland they are going about it in the right way.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #374
If they want the partition and destruction of Poland they are going about it in the right way.

I'd be quite happy to have Poland partitioned along the lines of the 2007 election result. Kaczyński could rule unopposed in his Singaporean-style democracy, while we could be left to get on with deepening European relations.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
13 Dec 2015 #375
What about foreigners who anonymously attack the legitimacy of the Polish government?

No one (that i know of) is attacking the legitimacy of the Polish government (they won the elections fair and square). They are criticizing the actions of the government which are against the constitution (in letter and spirit).

People protesting against government actions (any government) are a sign of a healthy society engaged in the political process.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #376
No one (that i know of) is attacking the legitimacy of the Polish government (they won the elections fair and square).

Indeed, there was a banner yesterday pointing out that no-one is questioning the results, we just want Duda to resign for his behaviour and that the government should accept the rule of law.

People protesting against government actions (any government) are a sign of a healthy society engaged in the political process.

Don't worry, Duda already said that he plans to take legal action against KOD for what people were saying about him. I really hope he does - it will put 500,000 on the streets!
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
13 Dec 2015 #377
Indeed, there was a banner yesterday pointing out that no-one is questioning the results, we just want Duda to resign for his behaviour and that the government should accept the rule of law.

The first is a bit extreme. I'd settle for publication of the TK rulings and accepting the oaths of the three judges legitimately appointed by PO (as well as the first two of the five selected by PiS, that is the first two whose oaths he accpeted).

The longer the government refrains from doing those two things then the more likely that those two things won't be enough.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
13 Dec 2015 #378
want Duda to resign

Wanting someone to resign and forcing him to are two different things. You think KOD will be upping to street ante to 100,000, 200,00, 500,000 and then lead the storming of the presidential palace? If so, you think the government will just stand back and passively watch the goings on? Even precludign that drastic scenario, do you believe further deepening the divide and polarising the country even more is advisable? Does that not play into Putin's hands?
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
13 Dec 2015 #379
You think KOD will be upping to street ante to 100,000, 200,00, 500,000

No, but the longer the PiS government continues to flout the law with impunity the more bridges it is burning.

then lead the storming of the presidential palace?

Sick fantasy

If so, you think the government will just stand back and passively watch the goings on?

Well if PiS unleashes force against peaceful protesters then it will have done horrible damage to the Polish nation. Is that what you want?

do you believe further deepening the divide and polarising the country even more is advisable?

PiS is the driver of the current deepening divide. All it has to do is follow the law and the protests will die down.

Does that not play into Putin's hands?

How so? And if so, shouldn't the PiS government have thought of that before setting aside rule of law for rule of party?
Legal Eagle
13 Dec 2015 #380
He was the President as appointed by the Government-in-Exile, which means that he replaced the 1935 Constitution with the 1992 Small Constitution.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

ROFLMFAO!

No, Wałęsa was duly elected President of Poland for a 7 year term according to the the 1935 Polish Constitution, as recognized by the legitimate President of Poland, President Kaczorowski.

1992 Small Constitution. Article 29 of the Small Constitution clearly lays out the rules by which Presidents are elected, and hence Wałęsa was up for re-election in 1995 according to the rules of Article 29.

No, that gave rules for future elections, but not past ones. It could not change the fact that Wałęsa had been elected to a 7 year term in office by the people of Poland.

The start of something big here.

Cutting the PO bureaucrats in half would be big. Removing the five judges who issued a subversive and illegal opinion without the quorum of judges needed to legally hear the case would be big. Ending foreign media from holding a near monopoly on Poland's news media would be big. Deporting subversive foreigners hostile to democracy would be big. People do expect big things from their democratic government.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #381
No, Wałęsa was duly elected President of Poland for a 7 year term according to the the 1935 Polish Constitution, as recognized by the legitimate President of Poland, President Kaczorowski.

Except he wasn't, because he was elected under the rules set by the 1990 National Assembly. You seem to be struggling with this, but I'll give you a chance - can you provide any evidence that the elections were organised by the Government-in-Exile of Poland and not the Republic of Poland? I'm not talking about Kaczorowski turning up to hand over some symbols, I'm talking about actual law.

No, that gave rules for future elections, but not past ones. It could not change the fact that Wałęsa had been elected to a 7 year term in office by the people of Poland.

The 1992 Constitution is clear that Presidents serve a 5 year term. It applied from the date of enactment, which was the 8th December 1992. Wałęsa's term was therefore cut from 7 years to 5 years as a result.

Cutting the PO bureaucrats in half would be big.

Could you perhaps provide statistics as to how many bureaucrats are PO bureaucrats?

Removing the five judges who issued a subversive and illegal opinion without the quorum of judges needed to legally hear the case would be big.

And entirely illegal. Any attempt to do that would result in massive demonstrations as it would be a huge breach of the Constitution. Incidentally, the opinion wasn't illegal, nor was there any requirement for a "quorum of judges" according to the law. For a poster that calls himself "Legal Eagle", you seem to have monumental problems with Polish law.

Ending foreign media from holding a near monopoly on Poland's news media would be big.

This is hilarious, because anyone that actually knows Poland knows fine well that the media landscape is dominated by Polish companies,

Deporting subversive foreigners hostile to democracy would be big.

Not many of them here, though one Russian was deported not so long ago.

Wanting someone to resign and forcing him to are two different things.

Correct. We want him gone for abusing the Constitution and being a spineless coward.

You think KOD will be upping to street ante to 100,000, 200,00, 500,000 and then lead the storming of the presidential palace?

The numbers will grow, but there are no intentions of storming anything. Whether Duda could emotionally survive a tidal wave on the streets against him is another question, especially as his former department at UJ has turned on him.

If so, you think the government will just stand back and passively watch the goings on?

I think the government should respect the law, that's all.

Problem is, Kaczyński is all about face - and he can't stand losing it. Duda was willing to compromise, and I think it's time for him to show some balls and perform the oaths that he's legally obliged to do.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
13 Dec 2015 #382
Merged: Gwiazda recalls the birth of TK

Andrzej Gwiazda, Wałęsa's long ingored original deputy leader of Solidarność, addressed Sunday's Freedom & Solidarity March and recalled the brith of the TK: "Not long after martial law was declared the regime changed to law to enable the nomenklatura to steal officially. Also in February 1982 they set up the TK as a contingency safeguard against any possible power-sharing in fuutre. That was to be an efffective way fo block any legislation of which the regime did nto approve.

When the Michnik, Kuroń, Wałęsa, Kwaśneiwski, Tusk, Pawlak Moczulski etc. clique took over in 1992 (see "Nocna zmiana" on the nocturnal palriamentary coup), Gwiazda, Walentynowicz, the Kaczyńskis and others remained faithful to Soldarity's anti-communist ethos.
Ironside 49 | 10,282
13 Dec 2015 #383
I'd settle for publication of the TK rulings and accepting the oaths of the three judges legitimately appointed by PO

They weren't legitimately appointed as by ruling of the same TK, the ruling that a bill is partially OK and partially not OK is a nonsense as saying that somebody is partially pregnant.

Anyway three judges should resin now and make a space for those three newly appointed ones if they are such a sticklers for the law? After all those three TK judges took active part in writing what is now recognized by themselves as unconstitutional.

as well as the first two of the five selected by PiS, that is the first two whose oaths he accpeted).

Those have been elected legally, no reason for them to be culled, nor legal precedence or procedures to do so.

No, but the longer the PiS government continues to flout the law with impunity the more bridges it is burning.

There are no bridges to burn, all are burned down.

Well if PiS unleashes force against peaceful protesters

They can get their mugs beaten up by the annoyed supporters of the current government if they will get fed up with the establishment brass kicking up the fuss and hysteria.

PiS is the driver of the current deepening divide

That Sir is a bare assed lie!
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #384
They weren't legitimately appointed as by ruling of the same TK, the ruling that a bill is partially OK and partially not OK is a nonsense as saying that somebody is partially pregnant.

You're obviously unfamiliar with how Constitutional Tribunals work. The job is to strike down the unconstitutional parts of laws, not the entire law. This is how civil law works, although you've already made it clear that you think that the PiS opinion is more important than the rule of law.

After all those three TK judges took active part in writing what is now recognized by themselves as unconstitutional.

What are you talking about?

Those have been elected legally, no reason for them to be culled, nor legal precedence or procedures to do so.

They have not been elected legally, as the Constitutional Tribunal ruled. The more you stick to that line, the more people will be on the streets.

They can get their mugs beaten up by the annoyed supporters of the current government if they will get fed up with the establishment brass kicking up the fuss and hysteria.

Hahahahaha. More threats, Ironside? You seem to be constantly talking about violence and hatred - is it personal, Ironside?
Ironside 49 | 10,282
13 Dec 2015 #385
What are you talking about?

About the fact that three members of the TK took an active part in writing that July bill.

The job is to strike down the unconstitutional parts of laws

They can strike down themselves then!

They have not been elected legally, as the Constitutional Tribunal ruled

They cannot rule in their own case, that a basic rule of any civilized legal system.

the more people will be on the streets.

Let them stay there! Soon they will annoy normal people who are demonstrating today.

the rule of law.

What rule of law? That is politics the law is for people not people for the law, it is all democracy in making, evidently TK in the current shape and form is not longer feasible.

Hahahahaha.

Don't need your hysterical laugh here delp, calm down.

More threats

What threats>? You are the one making threats on line, no me! Don't measure others by your own yard stick delph, or is that your paranoia kicked in again?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #386
Soon they will annoy normal people who are demonstrating today.

What, the 15,000? :D

A slight hilarious note about today : PiS have only attracted 15,000 to their march, as estimated by the Office of Security and Crisis Management. PiS themselves claim 80,000 and TV Republika claims 100,000. Reality? Compare the crowds from yesterday to today.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
13 Dec 2015 #387
What, the 15,000?

About 3 times as many as yesterday.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #388
Grzegorz, Grzegorz... you really don't have to repeat PiS propaganda word for word.

Don't worry though, 5,000 turned up in Gdansk today at the KOD demonstration, and who knows how many will turn up tonight outside Jarosław's house.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
13 Dec 2015 #389
who knows how many will turn up tonight outside Jarosław's house.

With your "estimations" I won't be surprised If... millions :))))

Dude, 42% vs 17, that what matters, the rest is pathetic small boy dick measuring contest.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
13 Dec 2015 #390
With your "estimations" I won't be surprised If... millions :))))

See, this is what PiS supporters don't realise. They tell so many lies that they don't know what the truth is anymore, and when the truth hits them (like yesterday with the 50,000+), they react with fear and hatred. Don't worry Grzegorz, we won't punish you for being stupid.

Dude, 42% vs 17, that what matters, the rest is pathetic small boy dick measuring contest.

What makes you think that you only have to count your success vs PO?


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