Sikorski doctrine - Eastern Europe under threat. Poland's foreign policy.

A biased newspaper if ever I knew one. She is in lobby central there.

I am against Russian leadership and I am not alone. I have never said that there shouldn't be economical or political ties with Russian Federation. All I meant they shouldn't be a leader in the Eastern Europe. It is unnatural as history have proven multiple times. Of course, it sounds ridiculous at the present time when oil is on the mouth of everyone, but stronger relations between countries of Eastern Europe are able to turn that thing around once natural resources you are talking about are depleted. Personally, I think that the whole brouhaha in the Middle East with Iran and Afghanistan is a big present for Russians. It makes them the sole providers of oil to frozen from stupidity Europe which has nothing better to do than to grow opium in Afghanistan and prevent Iranians from selling Europe oil. If you look at things soberly, why is it so? What Iran have done to be treated like a scapegoat? It is to advantage of Europe to be dealing with Iran. But then where would be Russia as a leader in the Eastern Europe if there is oil only one country away from EU? The West can't let it happen since it needs Russia alive and in control. Let's make Iran a boogieman out of nothing, just because it wants to be as powerful as the rest bomb-makers. But nobody cares that setting up India with bombs is a direct threat to Iran as a country. The West will destroy the world as it did in Munich in 1938.


And he was or is? ;)


Well, Germany's policy can't, that's for sure. I am not proud of Ukrainian politics millions time more. But I am against it and someday I will be proven right.

Well...I for one don't want to deal with religious nutters with nukes.

And on the other hand, it's always astounding how some people forget all about their own history and their own fight for freedom only a few years back.

As we speak there are people jailed and hanged for saying the wrong things, opposing the regime.
Remember the youth uprising in Teheran a few months back? A whole young generation under
the boot of the "guards" again.

Appeasement and indulgence of dictatorships isn't something to be proud of...to the contrary, it's something alot of Easternerns blame the West for.

But then, it was about their own freedoms...who cares for other peoples freedoms, right? Right!


He appeased a dictatorship, didn't he?
The West can't do it right in your eyes it seems...
What do you think the freedom hungry and desperate iranian youth will think of Ukrainians
being friends of their opressors?




Proven about what Nathan?
That at one time Russia will not be the big looming shadow? That Ukraine can ignore it???

Well....Problems don't go away pretending they don't exist! ;)

Being oppressed by a foreign power is something different than oppression by a government of your own country!

And who those oppressor of Iranians that Ukrainians are friends of, BB?


And who are those people who forget recent history?
BB, you talk in riddles. You showed a picture of Iranians demanding democracy in their country and right away you say that you don't want to deal with religious nutters with nukes. When, on the other hand, there is a demonstration for democracy in Russia and people are beaten like cattle in the Red Square, you are happy to deal with areligious, amoral nutters with nukes. Double standards? Absolutely.


I don't see Russian Federation as any "looming" shadow when Iran/Iraq comes to be a major oil provider and the Eastern Europe finally stands on its feet. I am against any dictatorship in Iran (if this is what you implied by people who forget their history), but dictatorship in Iran came from the way Americans swindled their internal affairs upside down and as a result made possible the arrival of nutters into the power. Putting embargoes and making the country a sore of the Earth is not going remove the nutters from the power either. Recall Germany and what it became when it was pressed against the wall by Versaille - you had more nutters than the history of Europe in all times. So, by the ways of seclusion and economical pressure you are only putting gasoline to the fire, BB.

You are wishing for such a friendly future, weren't you?


Nope, Putin get's alot of **** from the west, just recently because of his cruel game with this Chodorkowski guy...

Also there are regular votings in Russia...when a majority of Russians is actually quite happy with Putin and how he rules what can the West do? You know about his high approval rates in Russia, don't you...When 3/4 of the country agree with their gov...


Compare that to Iran!


Oh crap...stop blaming everything on the Amis again, that is so lazy thinking!
The religious revolution was an inner iranian thing and they paid for that for years now...


Huh? We had ONE! Every important country with ambitions has at least one nutter to show off..

And embargos against hostile, agressive, non-democratic countries is mostly a way to secure your own countries.
Germany for example doesn't sell military high-tech to China...atomar technology to help Iran's dictator to build nukes to threaten us in the end would be not so smart either.

Also Russia is not privy to sensitive technologies...if it interests you.

BB, are you really that naive? Recent elections in Belorus - there was more than 3/4 "support" for Lukashenko. And you really believe it? Now all the opposition leaders sit in prison and one, from what I heard is nowhere to be found.


That would only mean that in comparison to Russia, Iranians have at least a bit freedom in their media.


ONE??? Oh come on. You had thousands of nuts and beasts. Was there only Hitler to show off? Lebensraum alone had an army of nuts behind it.



;) Yeh, according to what history, BB?



Somehow it didn't secure Europe at the end of the 30s.


Well, France does to Russia and as I recall France is part of the EU. The same pertains to Germany. Embargoes on the chosen states perpetrated by the big boys is just a sham to exclude other, smaller countries from dealing with those restricted states. At the same time they are securing no competition for sale of the very guns which are later used to scare the sh*t out of the Westerner civilians and make Iran a bad boogieman. Here is just a few examples.


country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-5009.html

So, BB, it basically looks like "whenever we find a rationale we are good to go", but the rest of the world can't have that rationale (defense, humanitarian and other undercover reasonings). And then the rest are fed who is good and who is bad.

Erm...did we talk about Belorussia??? That's new to me...


Really!

rferl.org/content/Iranian_Blogger_Dies_In_Prison_Under_Suspicious_Circumstances/1512856.html


ROFL...low steeping Ukrainian...go play with the Poles that game.
Our nutters were even in an alliance with your nutters to give your people some "Lebensraum"...


So in your world Khomeini was an american plant and ally, yes? Heh:)


There had been embargos???
It wasn't even tried to not hinder the appeasement policy!


Yeah...France and Germany are in the EU!

And there will be always criminals trying to undergo the state policy...they are not safe and have to pay when they get caught.


Well...not really successful...as YOU, Nathan the Wise, already know the truth about all and everything and who is good and bad!

EU-brainwashing really sucks!

Belorus is just an example, BB. Where have you heard about anyone elected in a democratic country with 75% votes like in Russia or Belorus?


Yes. Have you heard how many not bloggers, but journalists have disappeared on the post-Soviet space, Ukraine included? In Russia alone from 1993 - over 300 journalists were killed. It is on average over 18 journalist a year murdered. I don't say a word about politicians, opposition, businessmen, owners of newspapers etc. Can you find me something similar in Iran?!

ifex.org/russia/2009/06/24/partial_justice/

The same thing occurs now in Ukraine.


Why do you turn personal, BB? Hitler was not alone as you said. We had nuts too and I don't deny it. The only difference is our nuts were at home. The other nuts, including Polish came over to where they didn't belong.


Well, when Stepan Bandera, the leader of future UPA, declared independance of Ukraine on June 30th, 1941, he was thrown into prison. I think that our Raum would have been somewhere else, nothing to do with life. Neither Nazis, nor Russians had life in mind.


Not exactly, but Germany was being squashed by the reparations and restrictions which were disproportionate and completely unfair.


BB, they won't be caught because they are the states. I recommend you "Warlord" movie (bad played and a bit boring), where it is all put out how it really is. Some scapegoat will always be there, but countries selling their weapons to whomever they wish is unstoppable. You know big boys were selling weapons to Libya just a few years ago, now they say that Ukraine and other states cannot sell their weapons because Libyans are "terrorists". The same goes elsewhere. They decide who is who: who is terrorist and who is not.



BB, I admire Germany and its people. You are amazing. Your country brought the greatest number of scientists, it produces almost everything and that everything is of the highest quality. Germany gave birth to great philosophers and composers. Today it is on the edge of the progress and is the engine that moves the EU. I am not sucking up. I truly admire your country. But some things which the EU does I don't agree with and I expressed my opinion. I don't know anything and you don't have to ridicule me with "the Wise". I don't see the EU policies being perfect, because they are not. And I don't agree that Hitler was the only one nut. It has nothing to do with Germany as a country today and its people.

Sorry Nate but I met to many believers in back door machinations/conspirational theories who know "the truth" compared to us "gullible" idiot normal folks....I hoped you wouldn't be one of them.

If this is what you think - fine, I am not trying to convince you otherwise.

served fuckker right !



sure you don't you are just a natural sucker !


BS, you don't belong ! As long as you keep up this BS there is only war !

Holy smokes Nathan.

I didn't think I would see you and and your friend BB mix it up like this, on how you guys see potential alliances and "The Sikorski doctrine - Eastern Europe under threat" issue.

It seems BB is debating from the viewpoint of dealing with the excesses/extremism of the Muslims while you are debating from the viewpoint of dealing with the excesses/extremism of old Soviets.

Its interesting. Both of you guys have some good points.

No doubt these points are based on who's shoes you're in.

That's true, MW. It is a complex issue. My point is that you cannot honestly be walling off someone as terrorists and dealing with others who behave the same way and say these are not terrorists, but our business partners. If someone wants to deal with Russia - please, go ahead. But instead of minding their own business big boys of this world are telling others who to deal with. I want to have tighter economical ties with Iran. I don't give a damn what America or Europe thinks of Iranians. But you see, they (US and EU) have the power to squeeze you if you get out of line. They explain this by making up boogie stories about Iranians. India and Pakistans gets nuclear stuff - that's Ok, but if Iran does - well, "they are crazy". Who are US and EU to claim somebody crazy after Iraq and Afghanistan? I wouldn't mention 1950-1993 period either. BB says that I profess conspiracy theories here. I quite don't see where I could have even slightly betrayed something I don't believe in. This is what I see.

What is your view on that, MediaWatch?

Crap!

What could the US and the EU do when Ukraine wants to deal with Iran?
Germany alone has big business with Iran and we get the regular ear full from our "friends" the Israelis for that.

dw-world


It's about highly sensitive technology which can be used as WMD's for bad purposes by bad regimes. That should be in all interests.

And I don't think the Ukraine has big stuff to sell in that regard...so where does your frustration come from Nate? You can do business with whom you want and you don't even produce the kind

of stuff which is actually embargoed...so what?

When did you spring onto the "bad West" - band waggon Nathan? That is for lazy thinkers!

PS: That one...


...is conspiratorial theory 101 for nutters in prime form!

What do you mean by that?

I agree, BB. I was malinformed on EU-Iran and Ukraine-Iran relations apparently. Ukraine signed an agreement to sell 50 new AN-148 planes and licensed assembly plants formation in Iran this year. My apologies.


I didn't. It is, probably, end of the year frustration that makes me play a devil's advocate.


Agree.


You know, AK, I frankly don't know. I have to take a long break from PF, relax, read more and learn to keep my mouth shut on issues I clearly have no idea about :)

Take it easy on yourself Nathan.

If you made a mistake, its shows sincerity on your part that you admit it. But we all make mistakes.

Don't start getting too self conscious on yourself about what you say now. I don't agree with everything you say (but there are viewpoints I do agree with), but I think in general your viewpoints are well thought out and sincere.

As long as you are diplomatic and respectful in your language, which you usually are, I say let it rip. Keep saying what's on your mind.

Naturally I say this to all other bloggers like BB, Crow and everyone else on these forums.

I think its nice to have viewpoints from Germany, Serbia and Ukraine as well as other countries on this forum.

Since you are from a Slavic/East European nation, I think your viewpoint should be part of the mix of viewpoints on this East European/Slavic topic.

What's the point of having a viewpoint on issues you have no knowledge of or at best very little? Isn't it better to just do your part.

I'm not interested in politics. Even if I vote I always think am I doing it right? If, for example, I'd choose a wrong person I may feel as if I was a complete ignorant, not knowing who was about to win. But on the other hand, if I'd 'win', should I feel as being right or just having a good guess as to who was planned to win? Democracy if it is ever possible then at the very low level, when people know each other and are more or less equal.

In the end, only time will show what your choice really was. People having power really do not entrust the mob with even the slightest decision-making authority, so rely on ways of controlling it by mass media, public relations business and so on. Democracy seems now to be nothing but authoritarian rule in disguise.

Yeah...take it easy Nate!
You did put up a good fight the whole year on PF...my admiration for that! :)

Have a good holiday and new years eve and come back soon! ;)


The difference might be you can show this "authoritarian" the finger when you are displeased...after 4 years usually the latest.

In this regard there is no better alternative....

You're right, there is no alternative.

Thanks, MW. Great post. You are absolutely right - it is an opportunity to express one's opinion no matter how wrong it may be, see sometimes completely opposite view on what you think, debate, discuss etc. that attracts to the internet forums people from everywhere. It is a place to learn. Talk to you soon, MW. It is always a pleasure.


I am becoming a little chatterbox; I like my thoughts thought out a little bit further than that.


If we stop having viewpoints on issues we know even little about and the most important discuss them, we will stop moving forward. Viewpoints is a starting point to get to know something better, AK.


Exactly.


I don't think this is the right approach, AK. In previous elections I voted for a guy who got 5% support in elections. I don't feel being ignorant that overwhelming majority of my country doesn't think as I do. I don't care for the results of the elections in the sense of a race track. You vote for someone who reflects the most the way you see your city, state or country, not for the winner necessarily.


Yep.


As Bismarck said: No speeches or majority rule will answer big questions of the time, but iron and blood. I think humanity is at the stage of development where tyranny and democracy mix in different proportions to create states. And depending on the dose of each in that mixture, we see some states as civilized and other barbaric.


Thanks, BB. Great discussion and Happy Holidays and New Year to you too. I'll be BACK :)

Thanks everyone. Happy New Year! My best wishes! Bye

Poster called Nathan started this thread in 2010 with this prophetic message about Donald Tusk as PM and Sikorski as FM.


Yesterday Foreign Minister Sikorski spoke at UN session, replying to the Russian UN ambassador:

Sikorski spoke on Friday during the Security Council meeting on Ukraine on the occasion of the 2nd anniversary of the Russian invasion. He devoted his speech to refuting the theses previously expressed by the Russian ambassador to the UN , Vasily Nebenzia, which - as he said - were astonishing.

- He calls Ukraine a client of the West. In fact, Kiev is fighting to be independent (...) He calls them Nazis. Well, their president is Jewish, their defense minister is Muslim, and they have no political prisoners. He says Ukraine is wallowing in corruption. Well, Alexei Navalny has documented how clean and honest his country is. He blames the war on US neo-colonialism. In fact, it was Russia that tried to exterminate Ukraine in the 19th century, then the Bolsheviks did it, and now we have a third attempt - Sikorski pointed out to the Russian.

He also added that, contrary to Russian accusations of "Russophobia", fear of Russia is not irrational. - He said that we were prisoners of Russophobia. Phobia means irrational fear. Meanwhile, we receive threats of nuclear annihilation almost every day from the former president of Russia ( Dmitry Medvedev - ed.) and Putin's propagandists. I claim that this is not unreasonable, said the minister.

He also expressed outrage at the Russian diplomat's historical lies.

- He even said that Poland attacked Russia in World War II? What is he talking about? It was the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany that attacked Poland on September 17, 1939. They even held a joint victory parade! He says that Russia has always only fought aggression. What were Soviet troops doing near Warsaw in 1920? Were they on a topographic expedition? - said the minister.

He added that Russia had suffered many failures, including: the Crimean War, the Polish-Bolshevik War, the Russian-Japanese War, or the War in Afghanistan , but "fortunately, after these defeats came reforms."

- What the ambassador succeeded in doing was to remind us why we resisted Soviet domination and why Ukraine is resisting now. They failed to subjugate us and they will not succeed in subjugating Ukraine, concluded Sikorski.

Sikorski has a long history of anti Russian sentiment. He went to Afghanistan invaded by the USSR and stayed with Afghani resistance for some time in 1986.

In Poland we call such people Cossacks. :):):)

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I don't care about his sentiments feelings or ego. Is he a good politician for Poland? the answer is NO!

Extremely good coz he is anti Russian so he won`t betray us to barbarians.


Of course you have to say it as a nazio far right boy. You would say YES only in one case - if Poland was ruled by your pro Russian nazio party. Then you would be nominated by Russians to the position of the governor of Warsaw Oblast region.

As soon as his dominatrix mistress ursula von der leyen agrees to negotiate with russia, he'll be licking putin's ear.

he will sell us to globalists and Germany instead. What is the difference?

@Ironside
They got *bling bling*

Priorities underlined again and again

meantime a huge demonstration in Warsaw of all farmers against green EU policies and unfettered import of Ukrainian agricultural products. Go farmers!