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Sikorski doctrine - Eastern Europe under threat. Poland's foreign policy.


OP Nathan 18 | 1,349
25 Dec 2010 #91
Have a Merry Slavic Christmas.

Thanks, MW. Merry Christmas to you too. I actually celebrate double Christmas: on Dec. 25th and Jan. 7th :) One is never enough.

Only with Russia!

Thank you, BB, for a dose of cyanide in my morning coffee ;)

But then you would have to drop the "slavic" in the union...

Why? According to Crowie, Germans are germanized Slavs, so the slavic can stay :)

Well OK if the Slavic Union is going to be a SLAVIC Union, then naturally Germany can't be part of it and Russia will be.

Unacceptable. If Germany wants to be a part - it is always welcome, but Russia - not for money, pity, the end of the world, or any other reasons. Just an example: when Germany was being unified in the 19th century Austria -a clearly Germanic nation - was not taken into the union. Russian Federation is the same case. It seems to be mostly Slavic, but it has nothing to do with the spirit of Slavic countries. Since Serbia is not interested in Sarmatia without Russia, I propose Serbia to unite with their brothers into some other Slavic union # 2 (or they might have #1 to avoid the war)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,745
25 Dec 2010 #92
Thank you, BB, for a dose of cyanide in my morning coffee ;)

*gives Nathan a beer as consolation*

Why? According to Crowie, Germans are germanized Slavs, so the slavic can stay :)

Ja...but you know Crowie...he is so not our most trustworthy source! ;)

Just an example: when Germany was being unified in the 19th century Austria -a clearly Germanic nation - was not taken into the union.

Yeah..they were to bossy...Vienna wanted to have the most say...Berlin thought otherwise and showed them the finger, germanic or not!
Seanus 15 | 19,674
25 Dec 2010 #93
Just curious, Nathan. Did Ukraine remain completely independent in Russia's war with the Chechens? To get involved would have been to jeopardise your own security. What did the Ukrainian Parliament say about that war (those wars), if anything?
OP Nathan 18 | 1,349
25 Dec 2010 #94
Yeah..they were to bossy...Vienna wanted to have the most say...Berlin thought otherwise and showed them the finger, germanic or not!

You see, BB, who better than you might understand the exclusion of Russia from the Slavic Union. Without Russia we would have a NORMAL union of countries with equal, unpretentious say in various matters that might arise. With Russia it is impossible - it would drag everything into a totalitarian, undemocratic and non-progressive towards the good of the member-states. Russia is already a union of republics and it was a head of the Soviet Union of "equal" republics before. What did it bring, but the total destruction? Look at Eastern Germany: whatever you had there in 1989 was 10000 times worse here. So, Russia in the Slavic Union would be like a cancer on a beautiful orchid. And I don't wish it to my country or any other country in the future union.

Just curious, Nathan. Did Ukraine remain completely independent in Russia's war with the Chechens? To get involved would have been to jeopardise your own security. What did the Ukrainian Parliament say about that war (those wars), if anything?

I don't know what exactly the Ukrainian government said (usually it is full of wh*res), Seanus, but I will definitely find it out. It is a very interesting question. I know that many Ukrainian volunteers and people with past military experience went to Chechnia to help them defend their country's independance.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
25 Dec 2010 #95
This to me is eastern Europe. I think the Ukrainian govt would have largely stayed out of it. I don't know when Juszenko (Yushenko) started his tenure but I can see him organising some behind-the-scenes support for Chechens.

Had Poland got involved in that war, that would have represented a major increase in the likelihood of Poles becoming targets. The biggest problem is guilty by association and I keep reiterating that. The leaders stay safe while innocent civilians become embroiled in nonsense. That's the real threat as was seen in the Balkans and elsewhere.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,745
25 Dec 2010 #96
You see, BB, who better than you might understand the exclusion of Russia from the Slavic Union.

It's not the same Nate...in Germany's case it was the fight between two top dogs about who is going to lead this new unified Germany, Prussia or Austria.

Who else will lead the slavic union if not Moscow? And will all the others agree? What would be the most logical choice which would get the most votes? Will the Ukrainians agree with Warsaw? Will the Poles agree with Kiev?

I don't believe really in a "we all will lead" scenario...there will always be stronger and weaker ones.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
25 Dec 2010 #97
BB is right. The seat of their govt is white Slavic and the rest, well, we know how Russia treats 'the rest' :( :( To exclude Russia would be to set the union off on an unstable footing and they'd instantly become a target.

Slavs have to work with more than their hearts. Celts learned that too :)
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
25 Dec 2010 #98
To exclude Russia

Why exclude Russia ... but a revolution needs to come from all the Slavic lands to change those who are stubborn.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,745
25 Dec 2010 #99
....kill 'em?

I think especially the Slavs have enough of bloody revolutions!
Seanus 15 | 19,674
25 Dec 2010 #100
£ódź, Poland would not accept subjugation to Russia, simple. Then a radical overhaul is needed as many Slavs are stubborn of their own admission.
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
25 Dec 2010 #101
would not accept subjugation to Russia,

Neither would I ... we all need to be equal
Seanus 15 | 19,674
25 Dec 2010 #102
But Russia as the primus inter pares, right? ;) ;)

Haven't you read Animal Farm, £ódź? Some are more equal than others ;) ;)

Are you advocating a return to communism and agrarian reforms as the hallmark of the Union? ;) ;)
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
25 Dec 2010 #103
advocating a return to communism

No ... I like some form of a mixed economy with socialism elements there too.

Animal Farm, £ódź?

It was a good book.

Sean you really dont want to be optimistic about it yeh? Tell you wife tonight that there is no way Slavs can have a good things to give to the world without being RACIST.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
25 Dec 2010 #104
The globalists have plans to mix those elements anyway, £ódź ;) Just don't think that they won't be a threat to any union if you started going against them :)

Oh, optimism is healthy, £ódź. I like to see the glass as half full and not half empty. Look at the thread title, it's about threats within Slav central. nothing external. Some here are still talking of Russia flexing its muscles, even in the face of new-found cooperation. Trust and non-denial need to be worked on ASAP. Try telling that to Poles on the streets and watch their reaction, esp older ones.
OP Nathan 18 | 1,349
25 Dec 2010 #105
It's not the same Nate...in Germany's case it was the fight between two top dogs

I agree, it is not exactly the same. But I don't see that much difference either. There is always fight for power on any political area.

Juszenko (Yushenko) started his tenure but I can see him organising some behind-the-scenes support for Chechens.

I very much doubt it, but even if (still, it is basically impossible) - what's the problem?

Who else will lead the slavic union if not Moscow?

Well, BB, you clearly have no high opinion of Slavic countries besides Germany's beloved Russia. The West knows that as long as Russian Federation is the bully in the region it would be easy to manipulate the whole Eastern Europe to its own benefit. Slavs can come up with some Brussels of their own - let's say - Bratislava - a great center for a Slavic union. In my opinion, any presence of Russia is a sign of no viable competition. The region will remain a dumping site for European left-overs.

And will all the others agree?

Do they agree in the EU all the time? Besides Slavic Union would be more of a confederation than a federation type structure as the EU seems to be. There won't be any "persuasive" pressures from the big boys in case there is a disagreement.

Will the Ukrainians agree with Warsaw? Will the Poles agree with Kiev?

If Iceland agrees with Bulgaria, I don't see why neighboring countries like Ukraine and Poland should be difficult on agreement.

I don't believe really in a "we all will lead" scenario...there will always be stronger and weaker ones.

Of course, but this is only when too much is given up to the Union. In the Slavic Union each will have its own choice. Areas of defense, scientific cooperation, medecine might be more on a common solution grounds.

To exclude Russia would be to set the union off on an unstable footing and they'd instantly become a target.

Why? It would be a third player.

Slavs have to work with more than their hearts. Celts learned that too

We do. But where are the Celts now?
I have to go, but I will be here later, guys.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
25 Dec 2010 #106
I just feel that he would have rocked the boat, Nate. He was known to be anti-Russian.

A third player, ROTFL. Russia would soon change that.

The Celts are in Scotland and Ireland, thanks :) (not only) The Irish, being the weaker Celts ;) ;) ;), lost their Tiger but the Scots still have their coveted lion :)

Oh, we are not really under threat either :)
Ironside 53 | 12,366
25 Dec 2010 #107
I've always believed that Ukraine and Poland should work together in a pragmatic way.

What Ukraine ?
Seanus 15 | 19,674
25 Dec 2010 #108
That country to the east of you that is considerably bigger ;)
Ironside 53 | 12,366
26 Dec 2010 #109
That country

That country in econmical and political sense is like a black hole!
PennBoy 76 | 2,432
26 Dec 2010 #110
Well, BB, you clearly have no high opinion of Slavic countries besides Germany's beloved Russia.

I hope Germany's friendly footing with Poland isn't just because it needs it for productive economic relations with Russia, and is authentic. Personally i think that Angela Merkel and Guido Westerwelle are sincere in what they do.

youtube.com/watch?v=Y9cOA-nXiWU
OP Nathan 18 | 1,349
26 Dec 2010 #111
I hope Germany's friendly footing with Poland isn't just because it needs it for productive economic relations with Russia, and is authentic.

I hope and wish all the best to Poland and Germany and their relations, although politics and authenticity is something that doesn't fit my mind easily. I haven't said that Germany needs Poland for its relations with Russian Fed., it is just that BB thinks that Russia is the only leader in the region and the rest of the Slavs need it so much as a leader to properly represent themselves in front of good, old Europe. I disagree with that.
PennBoy 76 | 2,432
26 Dec 2010 #112
Poland is also, and Ukraine when it unites and finds a single direction will most definitely join that club.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
26 Dec 2010 #113
That country in econmical and political sense is like a black hole!

Just like Poland was 20 years ago, and how it's still seen by most Westerners as being some poor backwater with a few pretty towns.

Get off your high horse - Poland isn't much better.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,745
26 Dec 2010 #114
it is just that BB thinks that Russia is the only leader in the region and the rest of the Slavs need it so much as a leader to properly represent themselves in front of good, old Europe. I disagree with that.

I disagree with that too and that wasn't what I've said.

But for me and many others Russia is the biggest country with the most natural wealth, which makes at an automatical top dog.

Surely that doesn't makes it an automatical leader, especially if you know their history.

Buuut....there are also countries in the neighbourhood who have nothing against Russian leadership, having still strong ties.

My point was that there is no real counterpoint to see inside the slavic world to Russia. It's mostly either pro-russian countries or anti-russian countries but it's more or less all about Russia in the end.

It is the big looming shadow nobody can escape.

So..to use Kissingers famous words..."When I want to call the slavic world, which number should I select?"
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #115
I wonder if Sikorski had a paranoid Xmas. Probably did.

His wife 'look, it's the Russians'. Sikorski 'where where?' 'Oh, just on tv'.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,745
26 Dec 2010 #116
His wife 'look, it's the Russians'. Sikorski 'where where?' 'Oh, just on tv'.

His wife is the renowned analyst and writer Ann Applebaum, Seanie...so I doubt that reaction by her very much! ;)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Applebaum

Read her review about "Bloodlands":

nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/worst-madness/?pagination=false
Seanus 15 | 19,674
26 Dec 2010 #117
By him, I meant :)
milky 13 | 1,657
26 Dec 2010 #118
What about the Russian oligarch and the free-market economy. Maybe the Russians and the USA are at peace nationally, but maintain a public facade of conflict in order to massage and supervise the Baltics and Poles etc.

The Poles, in vain, are waiting for the post 1989 payback from the American, and for their token support in the war against terrorism but(were duped) they're p1ssing in the wind. The second biggest force in Iraq are the private security companies, so the Polish participation will not, in anyway help provide them with US defense against their historical big bad wolf, the Russians. The conflict in the free-market world is much more subtle and dispersed than the nationalist mind-set can grasp.
Ironside 53 | 12,366
27 Dec 2010 #119
Just like Poland was 20 years ago,

well, Poland regained its independence 20 years ago, for few years,but means something in Europe even as a prise, have a cultural identity and all!

Whereas Ukraine have all kind of problems and possibility of becoming Russian province !

Get off your high horse - Poland isn't much better.

Its definitely better ! much.....economy could be better but thats globalization and open borders.
How come your ancestors ended in Scotland? Pry tell me, I sure its interesting story!

I wonder if Sikorski had a paranoid

I don't care about the guy , I just do not like your assumption that being Pole means being paranoid about Russia !
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
27 Dec 2010 #120
His wife is the renowned analyst and writer Ann Applebaum, Seanie...so I doubt that reaction by her very much! ;)

She also works for NYT which tells volumes about her not in a good way either.


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