Russian criticism of Poland - Soviet war memorial removal

Hahahahaha!

That must be one of the stupidest posts you have ever made Rich.

The moral of the story is, don't work as an ambassador for a pariah state brutally invading a neighbouring country, murdering, raping, torturing and looting and then protestors won't be following you everywhere with tins of red paint.


Meeting down by the river for a baptism?

And that end meant the beginning of the communist nightmare of stalinist oppression.


Logical fallacy. You can`t liberate a country by making it communist. It is simply impossible. Liberty and communism are on two opposing sides. :):):)

Hitler doesn't have a grave because no one would put flowers on it. And many would.

Poland was never communist. But it was made German-free in 1945. And guess who did it? It was the Red Army. Thanks, guys.

"The Red Army liberated Rzeszow, that is a fact"- Polish city refuses to demolish Soviet-era monument

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It's not about whether laying flowers is offensive to anyone or not. It was about the fact that was an event everybody knew about - that RuSSian ambassador will lay flowers on May 9 on the Soviet cemetery. That he's going to be out and about in public - that the public will have access to him. And since he's a Kremlin mouthpiece it was pretty obvious that in a country full of Ukrainian refugees it may be a risky endeavour. I'm guessing this is why Polish Ministry of Internal Affairs advised against it.


Really? Then what was Poland between 1944 and 1989? Because it defenitely wasn't capitalist.

I would be against the thugs, not a diplomat. Poland has enough ammunition to make thugs do away.


It was neither. As with genders, there is a range of "systems".
Do you want me to look up "communism" for you?

Poland didn't even have a "communist" party.

That "diplomat" is part of a clique of thugs. And, knowing RuSSia, I wouldn't be surprised if he was an agent.


No, you don't have to. Officially it was a communist country and that's how it's usually commonly called.


It did. It was called "Polish United Workers' Party":

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_United_Workers%27_Party

"was the communist party which ruled the Polish People's Republic as a one-party state from 1948 to 1989. The PZPR had led two other legally permitted subordinate minor parties together as the Front of National Unity and later Patriotic Movement for National Rebirth. Ideologically, it was based on the theories of Marxism-Leninism, with a strong emphasis on left-wing nationalism. The Polish United Workers' Party had total control over public institutions in the country as well as the Polish People's Army, the UB-SB security agencies, the Citizens' Militia (MO) police force and the media."

britannica.com/topic/Polish-United-Workers-Party

"the country's communist party, which was modeled on the Communist Party of the Soviet Union."

BS. A party that is communist or communistic is not the same as the Communist party. For example:

Communist Party USA, officially the Communist Party of the United States of America (CPUSA),

That aside, Poland was not communist because the system was not communist. We didn't have collective farms and private property was common. Badylarze were legal and so was owning stores na Chmielnej.

Just becasue you didn't like the system doesn't make it "communist". I know what "communist" means and what we had in Poland until 1966 when I left. It was not communism.

Just because PZPR ruled for over 40 years does not make it communist, either. Democrats ruled Chicago for 80.

Sorry, but it makes no sense. So what that it wasn't called "Communist" if it was, in fact, communist :D


It's not about my likes and dislikes. Officially the PRL was a communist country. In practice, as far as I remember, what we had in Poland during PRL times was called "real socialism":

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_socialism

Anyway, whatever it was called - it was sh1tty.

No, it was not. The streets were safe. There were no homeless bums. Nobody in my familty belonged to PZPR and I didn't belong to ZHP and later to ZSP. I was never forced or even asked to take part in May 1 parades. Health care and education were free. We always lived in the center of Warsaw. My last address was Nowy Swiat 47a at the end of Kubusia Puchatka. Not bad. There was no indoctrination in schools or na Polibudzie.

I was able to buy American papers, listen to VoA, and visit the US Embassy na Pieknej as often as I wanted. Nobody asked me why I did it. In 2017, I wasn't even allowed inside until I raised hell.

There were three bad things: We made crap money, we couldn't just leave the country as easily as you can now, and getting my own apartment was out of the question. That's why I left and not for any other reason. Once I was outside, the US was my final destination.

Please don't insult me with your facts. I knew Poland during that period better than you ever will.

My solution is simple: the police should have dispersed the mob and make it possible for the embassy delegation to lay flowers. As I said, either we are hosts in our own country or we allow angry Ukrainian mob to run things.

There would have been no such problem if we had followed the example of Lithuania and had broken the relations with Russia, but as long as the official relations are maintained we have to follow the law and international conventions.


No, but we have been providing substantial help for Ukrainian war effort, which could easily be interpreted as a hostile act and "spontaneous protests" staged to make it impossible for our delegation to visit Katyń last month. No such thing happened.

@Miloslaw
In communist mindset they were liberating Poland from Nazi's, Fascists, capitalists and any non-communist influence.

So naturally, those who felt oppressed by same enemies agreed. Those who did not feel oppressed, disagreed.

Especially those who felt more oppressed by communists.

You left Poland in 1966. After that time "your facts" don't matter. You don't know what years of "centrally planned economy" did to Poland. Those people who stayed and later generations know.

So:


Yes, it was sh1tty. Especially if you compare it to today's Poland.


Wtf is wrong with you? That "mob" were people who's country got invaded, their people killed, probably including their family members, friends. If you want to take out your sickening RuSSophilia on someone, then do it on Polish police and not on those people, a$$hole.

You are a really crazy provocateur.... :):):)


Yes, we know you are prejudiced against common Ukrainians, you hinted at it before. However, I already said: nothing serious happened, the ambassador didn`t get hurt, Russia is gathering the storm it initiated, patriotic Ukrainians only display their desperation over death and destruction in their country caused by Russians.


But Paulina already enlightened you that Poland hadn`t attacked Russia so it wouldn`t be the same. Why don`t you listen to her? - stop mixing two different things.

I guess sending buses filled with Moscow clerks and teachers over to Katyń was too much of a work for ruling RuSSian mob lol
Plus, I don't think drawing attention to a Soviet war crime committed against Polish POWs is something that the ruling RuSSian mob would be interested in, especially considering that today's RuSSian soldiers have been committing war crimes in Ukraine since the beginning of this invasion.

@Crnogorac3
I guess you don't like me the slightest but, most people don't know about the actions and goals of top end people in society or feel powerless to do anything about it. They are useally very quiet and create a spiderweb of connections for support and information. (That's how cabals and underground networks are created)

Even forcing a person to think about it may ruin their day and prefer to put the responsibility of fighting it on police forces and law enforcements who are restricted by politicians due to secret deals or influence by media/businesses who are operated by or influenced by said networks.

Such networks are also present, yet less openly in most countries

Yes, their country got invaded and their closed ones killed. That's why it's completely understandable that they got angry because of that. For the reason of this anger, they gathered together and formed an angry mob to stop the ambassador from laying flowers in the cemetery. When people are angry and they form a mob, then that's what we call angry mob. What's your problem?



Now, let's not get too emotional here. Neither my Russophilia (which I never denied but which was severely weakened by this nonsensical war and numerous Russian war crimes) nor my evident lack of deep romantic love for a certain segment of Ukrainian society (which I like to tenderly call banderopithecs) are even remotely relevant here. There are laws and international conventions that we - as a Latin civilisation country - have to follow. Dura lex sed lex and all that.

The protesters didn `t display any symbols of Bandera. Yet, you still call them a mob and regret the Polish police didn`t disperse them as it they were a bunch of violent drunk football fans rioting in streets.

Such an attitude means you are biased against common Ukrainians. Why are you so reluctant to admit it? Amasing! :):):).


The point of seeing depends on the point of sitting. :):) If Poland was attacked and invaded by Russia and refugee Poles protested in a similar fashion in Berlin or Paris against Russian imperialism, would you also call for the German or French police to abide to law and international conventions ???? :):):) You are really amasing now.


If you mean me, then you are making the third mistake in this thread. I am not emotional, I am just stating facts which are clearly visible in your posts. Emotional would be, according to your words, slinging mud at you. It didn`t happen although you were looking forward to it so eagerly. :):):):):):)

Relax. Kania provokes us on purpose. :):):) Later Russian officials have a chance to claim that proRussian Poles are discriminated and persecuted. Maria Zacharova, Russian Foreign Office spokeswoman, has done it just today, after reading this thread here..

wydarzenia.interia.pl/zagranica/news-zacharowa-mowila-o-polsce-natychmiastowa-reakcja-rzadu,nId,6781534

Marija Zakharova said that there are still people in Poland who "have a heart for common memory with Russia". According to her, such people defend the monuments of Soviet soldiers.

- The number of Polish citizens who cherish the memory of their ancestors is huge. It's much harder for these people because they're really underground. They feel all the "charms" of the liberal dictatorship , Zakharova said on Radio Sputnik.

I started to read this thread and I think it's an interesting and important one. The concept of "monuments" are a sore topic in the USA lately.

The biggest issue concerns Confederate monuments that exist in the Southern part of the USA in the territory that was once the rebel Confederate States of America. It's interesting and enlightening to see how other countries, e.g. Poland, deal with this topic.

I live in the northern part of the USA. The issue here is not Confederate monuments but monuments and markers to colonial English soldiers who butchered Native Americans. The monuments commemorate mostly the deaths of old men, women and children.

What's so interesting and enlightening?

Idiots in America tear down Civil War era monuments. Idiots in Poland tear down Soviet-era monuments. Idiots have no nationality.

Soviet era monuments were only erected because the USSR had forced Poland into an unwanted military and economic alliance that stunted growth for decades and had a devastating effect on social relations.

Poland has _NO_ reason to like or respect the USSR or feel any slightest scrap of gratitude toward that accursed country whose demise was a blessing for humanity.

The 'monuments' were maintained after 1989 as a courtesy and there's no reason for that courtesy to be extended one minute longer.

There's a reason no country close to it likes russia.... think about that instead of patting yourselves on the back so much

Yes, except for the lives of its citizens.

I'm not surprised you're willing to trade a Big Mac and a pat on the head from Biden, for the lives of millions of Poles.

Hey guys - Maf would have preferred to live under Hitler over Putin.

According to your logic, we should have kept Nazi monuments, if there were any in Poland.
Amasing! :):):)

Don`t you know that propagating two totalitarian regimes, nazism and communism, is punished in Poland???

We do. Like those killed by USSR.

Yes, because the Nazis liberated you from the clutches of the cannibalistic cult of Bolshevism?

Genau, Obersturmbannfuhrer Pawian!

I always find it rich when Russians talk about WW2 considering how chummy chummy they were with Hitler

@Bobko
According to their "logic" they freed Poland and Poles from the clutches of Judeo-Bolshevism and Capitalists (believe it or not they thought Jews controlled capitalists!)

and probably believed that Poles come to start loving them after being reduced to slave labour and rest sent to extinction or re-education.

So yeah, BS fantasies came from sides

Pawian thinks that the Americans would have won the war and liberated Poland anyway, without the Soviet help. I wouldn't be so sure about that.

And if they stopped and made separate peace with Germany after liberating Italy and France? And what if the Western front alone hadn't been enough and German armies, not tied in the East, had repelled the American invasion? Would western allies really care about the Endlosung of the Polish Question (that would definitely start right after the Jewish holocaust)? I wouldn't have held my breath, considering that they didn't even care enough about the Holocaust to bomb the rail tracks leading to Auschwitz and other concentration camps (even though they were begged for it by Jewish organisations), and they had means to easily do it (they bombed a lot of industrial facilities and military targets right next to those camps).